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#61 of 78 Old 12-22-2007, 07:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ericaz View Post
how I might better present my case. I'm truly not all that interested in hearing how some of you would leave your husband if he wouldn't change his stance. Just looking for some sound support here....
I'm not sure how to respond. I guess all of us here can supportively say it must stink to be in your situation. Nobody would want a pregnant mama to have to have conflict over an issue so important to her. But the way I see it, you have two choices. One - you circumcise the baby. Two - you leave the baby intact. There isn't going to be a happy compromise unless you find a doctor who will only circ one half of the penis (said w/ tounge in cheek - I'm not advocating circ at all folks).
It sounds like you've presented your spouse with information from all sides of the circ/intact argument. It sounds like he's not willing to admit to the harm of circ and how leaving baby intact is the bet decision. I don't know that there's any magical formula to make him "see the light". I am foggy-minded with cold virus right now and I'm sure I'm not articulating well but this isn't going to be a situation where compromise is an option. But if your husband wins the argument, it's your son who will lose something.

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#62 of 78 Old 12-23-2007, 02:22 PM
 
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There are two aspects to consider here that may help you.

1) Neither you nor your husband have to make a decision now. You both can continue discussing and pondering. There is absolutley no evidence to support RIC as being better than circ later. Anyone saying you must do it now is not being rational. In fact, there is good reason to believe that circ is more safe, less traumatic, has more predicable outcomes, and is morally better later in life.

2) RIC is wrong morally and philosophically. If someone chooses to advocate for RIC, they must be the one to provide arguments why the advantages outweigh the moral and philosophical reasons against it. They must provide the references and you must be able to follow the logic.

If not, then realize you are agreeing to emotional and irrational arguments. We do that all the time, so nothing says that is wrong...however, it should not be done lightly, especially when you are supposed to be playing an advocacy role for your child to protect him from harm.

Bottom line is the default should be remaining normal (intact). Any other course needs strong arguments to justify it. Not strong emotional outbursts, not strong irrational feelings, but strong arguments that show the advantages for the child, supported by good evidence and a logic that others would agree is compelling. So far I have not heard any from your husband.

Regards
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#63 of 78 Old 12-23-2007, 06:31 PM
 
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My husband's concern with the whole circ issue is whether our son will feel *different* by being intact. Of course, with my current large circle of friends most of the boys are intact but I do realize that not everyone is as crunchy as our gang.
I'm just looking for some feedback on information I could pass on to my guy that might help aid my stance...
TIA
Well I can tell you from a guy who just recently finished the period of his life where he had to use gym showers on a regular basis, this whole uncut/cut teasing this is crazy.

Guys generally dont spend time looking at each others penises. Mostly guys are nervous about being naked and want to get in and out as fast as possible. More importantly young guys are always worried about being considered "gay". If any guy got teased about his penis, the next thing that would come out of the teased boys mouth (if not, then from someone else in the room) would be "why were you looking at my penis, are you gay?"

Trust me, guys on the puberty/teen site that I use to go to a lot always worried about teasing, and the gay line worked EVERYTIME. And trust me, if a kid wants to make fun of another kid in the locker room, he is going to find a way to make fun of him, if he is cut or not.

If your ever worried your son is going to be made fun of, this will work. Cutting off a part of his penis will not make even a bit of difference.
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#64 of 78 Old 12-24-2007, 03:13 PM
 
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You don't absolutely need to make this decision now. If, before the birth, your husband agrees to leave your son intact, that's awesome. If he still hasn't agreed by the time of the birth, the default is to not do anything. If it's going to be done, the older the better.

Infants who are circumcised have a lower pain tolerance their entire lives. They are also much more likely to have problems breastfeeding.

If you wait until, say age 9, your son at least would be able to have adequate pain relief (during the operation--it is still extremely painful afterwards). The foreskin wouldn't need to be ripped as much from the penis first, because it would be at least somewhat retractable by then. There would be less of a chance of taking too much foreskin off. The wound wouldn't be subjected to urine and feces.
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#65 of 78 Old 12-24-2007, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ColoradoMama View Post
When I talked to dh about "the locker room argument," his response was, "Honey, the rule of the locker room is don't look."
Ditto from my DH.
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#66 of 78 Old 12-24-2007, 04:10 PM
 
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Hey Momma. Here is an interesting article that explores the "Look like Daddy" aspect to this debate:
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/Like-Son.htm

To quote the article:

"At age 3, my son saw the head of his penis for the very first time. The foreskin had retracted by itself and he discovered it in this condition as he went to the potty. “It’s just like Daddy’s,” he commented immediately, and yet Daddy is circumcised. He is now nearly 5. He has yet to notice that he is different from Daddy. As he gets older, like most kids, he’ll become modest and prefer privacy. I've known of circumcised men who didn't even know until adulthood that their fathers were intact. Some men are unsure as to what their father’s circumcision status is."

It is actually funny how this story mirrors my own sons. My older son was four when he retracted his foreskin for the first time. He had the exact same reaction as the boy in this story(my dh is circed as well). He is now six and that is the only time his dads penile status has ever been brought up.

I really believe that it will be a non-issue to your son. Good luck to you making it a non-issue to your dh, in time it will happen.

Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
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#67 of 78 Old 12-28-2007, 12:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Greg B View Post
There are two aspects to consider here that may help you.

1) Neither you nor your husband have to make a decision now. You both can continue discussing and pondering. There is absolutley no evidence to support RIC as being better than circ later. Anyone saying you must do it now is not being rational. In fact, there is good reason to believe that circ is more safe, less traumatic, has more predicable outcomes, and is morally better later in life.

2) RIC is wrong morally and philosophically. If someone chooses to advocate for RIC, they must be the one to provide arguments why the advantages outweigh the moral and philosophical reasons against it. They must provide the references and you must be able to follow the logic.

If not, then realize you are agreeing to emotional and irrational arguments. We do that all the time, so nothing says that is wrong...however, it should not be done lightly, especially when you are supposed to be playing an advocacy role for your child to protect him from harm.

Bottom line is the default should be remaining normal (intact). Any other course needs strong arguments to justify it. Not strong emotional outbursts, not strong irrational feelings, but strong arguments that show the advantages for the child, supported by good evidence and a logic that others would agree is compelling. So far I have not heard any from your husband.
Well said, Greg!

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Originally Posted by janellesmommy View Post
You don't absolutely need to make this decision now. If, before the birth, your husband agrees to leave your son intact, that's awesome. If he still hasn't agreed by the time of the birth, the default is to not do anything. If it's going to be done, the older the better.

Infants who are circumcised have a lower pain tolerance their entire lives. They are also much more likely to have problems breastfeeding.

If you wait until, say age 9, your son at least would be able to have adequate pain relief (during the operation--it is still extremely painful afterwards). The foreskin wouldn't need to be ripped as much from the penis first, because it would be at least somewhat retractable by then. There would be less of a chance of taking too much foreskin off. The wound wouldn't be subjected to urine and feces.
Excellent point!



I'm also not clear on P.'s argument - was/is he upset by the difference between he & his father because he was circumcized? I can understand a man feeling betrayed, hurt, upset if his father was left intact & he was cut but I can't quite understand why a man would feel betrayed, hurt, upset if he was left intact & his father was cut.

I really like the two posts above that I quoted. So far, he doesn't have a single decent argument.

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#68 of 78 Old 12-28-2007, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We got our Penn and Teller videos in the mail. I'll be sure to post after dh and I watch!

I've gotten some great advice, particularly from the papas. We haven't talked much about this topic lately at home so there isn't much to report as of yet. I think we're both trying to avoid it.

As for what bothered him about being different from his dad - it was just that...being different confused him. I'm sure the fact that his dad is very uptight about those sorts of things and apparently didn't want to talk about it contributed to my husband's youthful confusion. So, it was not that he felt *betrayed, hurt, upset* that he was circ'd.
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#69 of 78 Old 12-28-2007, 04:32 PM
 
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If the Penn and Teller video doesn't do it immediately, you might point your dh to this thread:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=817835

Which gives quotes from teenagers (both cut and uncut) today and how they feel about circumcision (and how, for some of them, how they feel about being circumcised).

I wonder how he'd feel explaining to his son, when his son is a teenager, that he watched the Penn and Teller video, etc., but still cut off part of his son's penis? It isn't a conversation I would want to be having with my child, you know?
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#70 of 78 Old 12-28-2007, 08:52 PM
 
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I'm sure the fact that his dad is very uptight about those sorts of things and apparently didn't want to talk about it contributed to my husband's youthful confusion. So, it was not that he felt *betrayed, hurt, upset* that he was circ'd.
I wonder *why* he felt "confused," have you asked him exactly what his reasons are?

I dunno, I just feel that if someone is going to argue for circumcision, they better have some real reasons, nothing vague.

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#71 of 78 Old 12-29-2007, 12:00 AM
 
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As for what bothered him about being different from his dad - it was just that...being different confused him. I'm sure the fact that his dad is very uptight about those sorts of things and apparently didn't want to talk about it contributed to my husband's youthful confusion. So, it was not that he felt *betrayed, hurt, upset* that he was circ'd.
Sounds to me like there is a lot more going on than RIC for your husband. RIC is the easy target and scapegoat, but there is more to the story. And that is part of the problem you are having trying to discuss this with your DH, you don't know the whole story yet.

But just because his childhood was (insert what ever the issues were here) difficult for him, is no gaurantee your child will experiece the same things. Most likely your child will have a totoally unique set of experiences, RIC or not. To argue that RIC will solve problems that have not, and likely will not, occur is irrational.

So far you have lots of rational arguments why RIC is the wrong chioce. And irrational vague feelings from someone "traumatized" in childhood that RIC will solve all the problems that person experienced in their past. Which advice sounds more compelling?

Regards
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#72 of 78 Old 12-30-2007, 06:18 PM
 
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I remember reading an article that referenced a study in which intact sons of circ'd fathers were asked how they felt about being left intact. Almost all of them said things like "relieved," "grateful," etc.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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#73 of 78 Old 12-31-2007, 12:04 AM
 
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When DH and I first started discussing circ DH asked what we would tell our son if the question came up about why they looked different. I said we would tell him the truth. We can explain why the decision was probably made to circ DH, and why it was made to leave the child intact. DH couldn't argue with the honesty/facts perspective.


I think there is a greater issue with your DH than the circ. It sounds more like he did not like the fact that is was not to be discussed. Instead of recognizing that the lack of discussion was the issue, he is turning the circ factor into the issue.


Good luck!

Mama to my sweet Sophia, born at home on 4/6/11.
 
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#74 of 78 Old 12-31-2007, 01:38 PM
 
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Growing up in the South, DH only knew of one boy who was intact, and yes, he was teased about it. But according to DH, the boy was also very overweight, and it was just "one more thing" to make fun of him about.

He wasn't concerned about it as a reason to circ our son (who is intact).

Rebecca, mama to M (08/06) and E (04/09)
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#75 of 78 Old 12-31-2007, 01:57 PM
 
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I wouldn't leave my husband. I would simply insist that it wasn't being done, and put him in the position to "convince" me to do it, not the other way around.

He's the one who wants to cut your son's genitals. Why should YOU be convincing HIM of anything?

Rebecca, mama to M (08/06) and E (04/09)
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#76 of 78 Old 12-31-2007, 02:12 PM
 
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One suitable answer to an intact boy's questions about why he looks different is...

"When I was young, people thought it was a good idea to cut off a little piece of boy's penises. So just after I was born, they cut away the skin from right here. Isn't that silly? It must have been very painful, and when you were born, I wanted you to know how much we loved you. So even though some people still did that, your mom and I didn't want to harm you like that."

You might even consider comparing it to the way people cut off the tails of certain breeds of dogs.

Rebecca, mama to M (08/06) and E (04/09)
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#77 of 78 Old 12-31-2007, 04:03 PM
 
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I wanted to say something similar to PP when ever my 5yo intact ds asked.
Well, just last week, they were peeing together, he asked dad for the first time why his pee pee looked diferent. (right after comenting on how BIG it is!LOL!)

DH simply said "When I was a baby, they cut the skin off the end of mine. When you were born, your mommy said 'they don't need to do that to my baby!' " That was it - no futher discussion.

So as he walks by me, I asked him if he wished his looked like Daddy's. He told me "No! I'm glad I have my skin - the way its supposed to be." I thought it was neat he came to that conclusion himself. Then he turned to DH & said "but it didn't hurt Dad, did it." We told him yes, it hurts babies. That disturbed him, & he wanted to insist that Daddy didn't cry.
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#78 of 78 Old 12-31-2007, 08:02 PM
 
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I asked my DH who when we were expecting insisted that the peer pressure and teasing would be awful.

I asked him later what kind of teasing an intact man in his group got. "You're uncircumcised."

I asked him how his intact friend responded.
"So?"

OK, that is the horrible teasing. Come on, it was no big deal! Yes his friend was different, but he certainly wasn't emotionally scarred by the experience! These friends give each other lots of crap and this is so minor compared to the other teasing they've done.
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