Thanks and some questions. - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well, I wrote a couple of months ago that I was preg. and had wanted to convince my dh that if we have another boy we should NOT circ. (I have huge regrets after our first son ) Anywho, you all gave me great info, and I was able to convince dh, thanks again for that! Well, we had the U/S today and It's a boy! (a healthy perfect boy)

Now, we get to explain our decision to everyone else I know it shouldn't matter what other people think, and in the end it won't make us change our minds, but I want to be fully prepared to explain our decision, and refute and false info they throw at me.

OK, the one I hear most is about UTI's, that an uncirc.ed boy will be at higher risk. Is that even true? Does it have anything to do with how one cares for the uncirc.ed penis? Even if it is true, I don't see it as a reason for circ. as preventative for UTIs, seems pretty drastic to me, and I intend to BF, which should lower that risk.

Next, penile cancer. One of my friends is always saying that circ.ed boys have NO chance of getting it (That isn't true is it?). And isn't there a stat that says that more men get breast cancer than penile cancer, and that we don't go ahead and remove their "unnecessary" breast tissue to reduce their risk. Also, isn't penile cancer the result of STD exposure? And isn't it extremely unlikely that a normal man who cleans himself would have a very hard time not noticing that he had the STD's in the first place, and then also for them not to know about penile cancer (like death from penile cancer would be very unlikely?)

Also, onto my learning to care for the uncirc.ed penis. Do I need to know anything other than not to retract it, and keep it as clean as I do the rest of him? How do I clean if BF explosive poop gets in between the foreskin and the head? (hope that makes sense), you know how BF poops can be, they get into every little crevice...sorry for the lovely topic but you all are always talking about much more disgusting topics on here right? this forum is not for the faint of heart

OK, that's all my questions for now. I'd like to hear how you all have convinced others that circ. is medically unnecessary, as medical arguments are the only ones I will even entertain, b/c at least those people have my child's best interest in mind, as opposed to going with some cultural norm, YK?

Thanks in advance for all of your expertise

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#2 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 11:34 AM
 
Delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Now, we get to explain our decision to everyone else
Why? : It's nobody's business but yours. Do you need to mention it? Granted, I have not had by baby yet (it's a boy), but do people actually ask about this when baby is born?
Delta is offline  
#3 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We have lots of loving family members who will care about this, and I do not doubt their concern and love for my children I also think this will be an opportunity to educate, as I have been able to do about things like BFing past a year, co-sleeping, cloth diapers, etc. If it comes up during the preg. we want to be prepared to discuss our choice, and it WILL come up after baby is born, no doubt about that

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#4 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 11:58 AM
 
Delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Interesting.

I suppose I should be prepared for input from 'other interested parties' as well. Not looking forward to that.

:
Delta is offline  
#5 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Delta

I would say that you needn't worry about people who don't have your child's best interests at heart, and of course you have the final say, but it is nice to have many people love/care about your child, esp. those who are willing to listen to reason

Believe me there are many who will question this choice not based on my child's best interest, and their comments will be ignored

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#6 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 12:34 PM
 
Sara29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I came across this last night:http://www.circumstitions.com/One-liners.html
Sara29 is offline  
#7 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 12:48 PM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 12,113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To address your questions re: care of the intact penis - you really do not have to worry about bf poop. The foreskin is firmly attached to the head, so poop won't get in there. You'll see when he gets here. Pee can get out, but poop won't go in. All you need to do is wipe everything away just like you do for any baby. And wash in the bath just like you wash a finger. It's very low maintenance, nothing scary at all.

You've already got the "no retraction" thing down, just make sure your dh and anyone else who might change the baby know it, too. It's really, really important not to retract the foreskin. Also keep an eagle eye on your ped, because many of them try to retract the foreskin during well baby visits. There's really no reason for anyone to touch his penis unless it's to clean him during a diaper change.

I think www.nocirc.org has a pamphlet or two on caring for the intact penis and the dangers of retraction that are really useful.

Finally, CONGRATULATIONS on your decision and on persuading your dh! That's wonderful!

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#8 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 01:04 PM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Patty:

The first thing is to get to the heart of their thinking. Ask them why they think you should. This avoids the scatter gun approach where you will be ticking off 100 reasons. Just ask them "why would you think I should?" Usually after one knowledgeable answer, it's the end of the discussion. Now to your questions:


RE: "OK, the one I hear most is about UTI's, that an uncirc.ed boy will be at higher risk. Is that even true?"

Well, maybe. There is a lot of conflicting research with all of the researchers but one coming in at a 1% or less risk. Girls are at almost an 80% higher risk and circumcised boys also get UTIs as well. If you knock out all of the bous who have structural abnormalities that circumcision would not help, the real chances of a urinary tract infection is probably between 1/500 and 1/1,000 and 90% of these can be adequately and reliably treated with antibiotics so maybe 1 in 50-100,000 would get a definite benefit.


RE: " Does it have anything to do with how one cares for the uncirc.ed penis?"

Absolutely not.


RE: " I intend to BF, which should lower that risk."

Research shows that breast feeding will lower the risk 60-90%.


RE: "Next, penile cancer. One of my friends is always saying that circ.ed boys have NO chance of getting it (That isn't true is it?).

Absolutely not! the research here is difficult because the numbers of cases of penile cancer is so low that it is difficult to get meaningful statistics. The best they have been able to come up with is that a circumcised man has about a 60% less chance. However the experience of non-circumcising countries refutes this number and the only man I have ever heard of that had penile cancer was circumcised and guess where it was? It was on his circumcision scar.


RE: " And isn't there a stat that says that more men get breast cancer than penile cancer, and that we don't go ahead and remove their "unnecessary" breast tissue to reduce their risk. Also, isn't penile cancer the result of STD exposure? And isn't it extremely unlikely that a normal man who cleans himself would have a very hard time not noticing that he had the STD's in the first place, and then also for them not to know about penile cancer (like death from penile cancer would be very unlikely?)"

Yes, more men do get breast cancer than penile cancer. Penile cancer is not a result of STD's. There is some supposition that penile cancer is the result of poor hygiene but no research. Penile cancer is so rare that there has been little to no research on it and probably never will be. To put the cahnces of penile cancer in terms you gan get your brain around, consider this example: If a city of 50,000 people with no circumcised men, you could expect a case of penile cancer once every 156 years. The death rate of circumcision related causes is much higher than that and penile cancer is almost always an affliction of elderly men. Not a good reason to circumcise!



RE: "Also, onto my learning to care for the uncirc.ed penis. Do I need to know anything other than not to retract it, and keep it as clean as I do the rest of him? How do I clean if BF explosive poop gets in between the foreskin and the head? (hope that makes sense), you know how BF poops can be, they get into every little crevice"

(1) Wash the outside just like a finger. (2) rinse. (3) dry. That's about it. The preputial opening in infants is tightly closed and it is unlikely any will get in and if it does, it will just be at the very tip. If it won't wipe out easily, just sit him in some water and it will come out. If he's had one of those explosive ones, you'll probably want to sit him in some water any way. The foreskin is bonded to the head in infants just like finger nails are bonded to the nail beds and nothing can get in between so don't worry about that. Never try to retract him and don't let any one else retract his foreskin. That breaks that bond and allows bacteria to get in.



RE: "I'd like to hear how you all have convinced others that circ. is medically unnecessary, as medical arguments are the only ones I will even entertain"

Ther is not a single medical organization in the world that has found a definite medical benefit and not a single one that recommends circumcision on a medical basis and most strongly recommend against it. If they argue with that, congratulate them on their superior intelligence and knowledge and point them to the nearest stop sign for the rest of their argument.




Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#9 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 01:08 PM
 
Sara29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
As far as cleaning I always used a wet wash cloth during dipe changes on both dd and ds.Never those nasty wipes from the store.They were/are bf throughout diaper years.I think bf poop is easier to clean off then the ones that follow once solids are introduced.I never dug around in there genital area to clean.At bathtime a quick soap up with calendula or Chandrika soap and that was it. The foreskin seems quite effective in keeping poop out during the diaper period.When I look at it it looks closed at the end,but he pees quite easily so that is just the way it is supposed to be.One would think the cut boys would have more problems since their innards are now exposed.

UTI's is higher in girls than boys,but we don't cut them! Retraction and bubble baths or harsh soaps can increase UTI risks.The cancer society does not support the fact that circing reduces the risk of penile cancer and yet I have come across quite a few hospital baby pages that list that as one of the benefits!

I long ago gave up trying to explain why I do what I do to anyone but my husband.
Best wishes!
Sara
Sara29 is offline  
#10 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks all!

As I mentioned, my family really does care, they are just not informed (much like I wasn't). There is so much false info. out there(about circ. being necessary). I am hoping to find some things on the NIH website, maybe the AAP, WHO, some of those, so that any questions anyone has about health benefits can be refuted without what might be viewed as "propaganda", YK? No one I know will argue with those organizations, but would argue with info from "less" medical sites. Hope that doesn't come off wrong, but with so much online, it's best to go with reputable groups when making an argument (at least with my family )

I actually look forward to educating them on this issue, as they have been receptive with other seemingly "strange" things I have done

Sara- cloth wipes here too

Thanks all, you guys are great!

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#11 of 13 Old 08-25-2003, 03:51 PM
 
Sara29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Patty,
I just looked at the policy statements on circ for AAP,ACOG,and AMA and you won't find much support in those statements against circ.They seem to focused on being PC and
parent *choice* saying while there is little medical benefit most parents go on to circ for social or religious reasons.

I think you might actually have better success if you concentrate on the male anatomy and what is lost during a circumcision,and what happens(or can happen) to the penis as a result of cutting. This is where I am going to start with dh and we are going to learn about he foreskin,ridged band,frenulum,glans,messier corpuscles,van der patter bodies,dartos muscle,and whew is there anything else???? Probably!

When people call the foreskin(aka prepuce) just a loose flap of skin-boy that is so wrong.The muscle fibers,blood vessles,nerve cells...so much lost besides ofcourse reduction in size and width.
Anyway that might be a good place to start.
Sara
ps.My family does care and love me and the kids as well,but if they had their way I would have birth them in a hospital,weaned them under a year,vaccinated them to the max,and ofcourse the in-laws would have me cut my boy in a few years! I just ignore it
Sara29 is offline  
#12 of 13 Old 08-26-2003, 10:18 AM
 
calngavinsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada....EH!?!
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi Patti, congratulations on your decision! You have a lucky little guy. I have links to some great info to answer your questions and calm the fears of your family(I know how families can be).

Here is what the ACS has to say about circumcision and cancer,
http://www.cirp.org/library/statemen...s/1996-02_ACS/

Here is some info abour circ, breastfeeding and UTIs,
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/bre...ement2002.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm

And lastly, here is some great intact care information,
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/4pam.pdf
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/
http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss2.html

I hope these help.
Good luck and take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
calngavinsmom is offline  
#13 of 13 Old 08-28-2003, 07:13 PM
 
suspenseful's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: graceland
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The following website for Doctors Opposing Circumcision (D.O.C.) might be useful to you ...

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org

Their literature is written from a medically based perspective, and they dispute the myths and misinformation surrounding the medical community's involvement with routine infant circumcision. (The Circumcision Quiz might be just the thing you need at the next family gathering.)
suspenseful is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off