wife wants to cut!- PLEASE HELP!!! - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 60 Old 02-08-2008, 08:53 PM
 
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I want you to make sure you at least find a 'foreskin friendly' doctor as well to be good anti-circ-write to doctors opposing circumcision and to nocirc asking them where your at even go to find your tribe.

I congratulate you on you becoming a daddy and I been around long enough to see doctors accept one signature sometimes only the mom signature so your best bet is to find a pedi that thinks like you also 'find out what her ob thinks' because her 'now ob ,future pedi or an on call ob/pedi at the hospital are likely the one's at risk to do the 'circ' so state your opinion & how you don't want it done but your wife does ask how to prevent it from happening because you don't want to take legal action-first word of legal will be automatic fear in docs ears -scares them..

That shall be the way they could 'try to 'help you change your wife mind' maybe see if you can call the hospital and have a pro-intact doctor come to you say we don't do those here or at least make sure she delivers at a hospital that doesn't perform circumcision because if she has an pro-intact pedi -and a hospital that doesn't perform them he will be more likely the way to prevent circ from happening -because longer waiting time equals she will get to know what she is afraid of .
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#32 of 60 Old 02-08-2008, 08:58 PM
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Have her read this:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

and this:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#33 of 60 Old 02-08-2008, 10:04 PM
 
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Hooray - a new baby! That's wonderful.

I know you've already gotten a lot of suggestions, so I'll keep mine short. Perhaps you could *gently* suggest that altering her son's genitals to fit her sexual preference is a little odd and not something he will probably appreciate when he is older. Good luck and congratulations.
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#34 of 60 Old 02-08-2008, 11:25 PM
 
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Perhaps rather than discussing how awful the procedure itself is or the merits of the intact penis (because I'm guessing she may disagree with you on those points), you could focus on the choice issue.

It's your son's penis. If HE doesn't like his foreskin, HE can choose to have it removed.

Sometimes folks respond with the idea that it's better to have the operation before the child can remember it- and THAT is suggesting that it's better to hurt/cut/perform surgery on a BABY than on an adult. But then, I think exactly the opposite- babies should be protected and kept from pain (and open wounds in dirty diapers) whenever possible; adults can handle it if necessary.

There are a good number of men out there who regret the fact that they were circed. I don't know of any intact men that regret the fact that they weren't- and if they do, they can always have it done.
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#35 of 60 Old 02-09-2008, 02:58 AM
 
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if your son's natural given parts are gross, then I assume she also feels that a potential daghter's natural parts are gross too. No? Not the case? That's sexist and hurtful. I feel sorry for your poor child.
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#36 of 60 Old 02-09-2008, 03:26 AM
 
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I don't think she realizes that an intact grown man will bare his glans upon arousal. It looks no different than a cut penis when erect. Removal of the foreskin is permanently exposing the glans suggesting an erect looking penis while flaccid (soft). Honestly, it takes a twisted mind to want to see an adult aroused looking penis on a newborn. Its NORMAL for a baby to have his penis covered, protected. Thats the way a child's genitals are suppose to look. The only one who should see his glans is him and his partner when he is grown. Its so wrong to impose a sexual fetish on an innocent newborn. As Quirky ( a brilliant intactivist who visits CAC periodically) once said, and I quote "Its not a fetish to prefer sexual parts the way nature intended them to be. The ones with the unnatural obsession are the ones that can't deal with a normal set of genitals and have to cut parts of them off to find them attractive.....Finding whole genitals of the opposite sex attractive is ENTIRELY natural, and how things are supposed to be. It's not possible to have a sexual fetish about normal genitals, because it's, well, normal......Not being able to find normal body parts attractive is unnatural, and I'd say that having to cut parts of them off and having to have a denuded penis in a partner would be the ones with the fetish." yeah simple minded me takes notes.

If she has any religious convections, PM me and I'll be happy to help you. We can't talk about religion on this forum.
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#37 of 60 Old 02-09-2008, 04:35 AM
 
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I had my son circed even though it was against my better judgment- and I regret it to this day...

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#38 of 60 Old 02-09-2008, 05:00 AM
 
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DivinDaddy, Welcome to the forum. I used to live in Orlampa too! (Actually Orlando)

It appears that your wife is the type that doesn't like to stand out as different. I can understand that. She is in her comfort zone in not being different. I have a slight tendency to be the opposite way, that is loud and proud in my differences and I don't care what other people think. I make my decisions based solely on what I think is right for me. For instance, while most of my friends are driving sport utes, I drive a ridicously impractical sports car.

Here is a factoid that may make your wife re-consider. The circumcision rate in Florida is practically in free fall. The Florida circumcision rate for 2005 was 37%! This is down from 57% in 2003 and who can guess what it will be for 2008? Certainly it is not going to take an abrupt about face. This will mean that 2 out of 3 of your son's classmates will not be circumcised. Certainly, circumcising a child this year will be a very different move and the child will stand out as different.

When we consider our perceptions of the circumcision rate, it is usually based on the circumcision rate around the time we were born or some 20 or 30 years ago. This is reality for us but our children's reality will be very different. Our children will be growing up in a world that circumcision is not regarded as normal. Imagine the distress a child could suffer when he realizes that part of his genitals are missing. In our age group, we had little chance of this because all of us were circumcised and we would not likely have ever seen a normal penis to realize something was missing. Even if we did notice a difference, since so many of our friends were also missing it, we would have thought them as different, not ourselves.

I'm wondering if your son realizes he is different than most of his classmates and is angry when he learns how it happened, will she be willing to take the entire blame? Will she be willing to have a frank discussion about how it came about and why she did it? Will she be willing to tell him you wanted to protect him and she went against your wishes? If she is not confident that she can do this, she should reconsider circumcising your son.

.
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#39 of 60 Old 02-09-2008, 05:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DivinDaddy View Post
Her main thing is that she really thinks its "gross", her friends think its gross, shes never been around a natural one, and is worried his girlfriends will think its gross.
Congratulations for daddyhood!

First - why would anyone care what your adult friends think about your son's penis? Why would they even see it? So why care? It is none of their business!

Second. I highly recommendate you and your wife to go read around teenage boards. Just be ready for a shock - because what you will read is very foreskin friendly texts - coming from next generation. They are different. They have access to internet and information. It is easy to find blogs and message boards(unfortenately I cannot post links here)where teenagers talk positively about intact penises and boys as young as 15 allready restoring and feeling very angry about what was done to them. So your son will indeed live in a very different USA, his future dating partners will think very differently about the whole circumcision thing.

Ever thought of that?

As far as other reasons. I am European so the whole idea of scarring your child's genitals is sad.
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#40 of 60 Old 02-09-2008, 08:35 AM
 
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The no circ web site has pictures of "botched" circumcisions. If I wasn't already a believer in leaving my boys natural, THAT would have done it all by itself.

***** Tell her "There is NO measureable benefit to a VERY risky cosmetic surgery!!"
Almost 50% of American babies are left intact, and the numbers are well above 90% in Europe.


And Phoenix Rising is so right. Your wife needs to think about what her SON will say 15 yrs from now, not what her co-orkers will say now.

Mom of 4 aspiring midwife "Friend"ly seeker
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#41 of 60 Old 02-09-2008, 11:47 AM
 
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Congrats on becoming a Daddy! And I just must say that I think it is awesome that you are already so involved as a parent and trying to protect your child already. You have a lucky babe in that respect.

she saw the video and still wants to cut! Oh my - you have a lot of work ahead of you. the actual act of circ'ing is horrifying - I have not watch the videos, worse during nursing school I had to attend a boy being mutilated....I can not even begin to describe the trauma it caused me, let alone that poor babe.

just keep the discussion open and hopefully in time, she will see reason. it is much more common than she realizes - maybe not our generation, but in the youn children and teens.

One angle I bring up to people when debating this topic - female genital mutilation that occurs abroad. I ask them if they support it, always a resounding no. Then I compare it in great detail to male circ'ing and make them tell me what the difference is. I mean, over there, female circ'ing is "normal" - it isn't considered female genital mutilation to them.... in both cases it is cruel, incredibly painful, disfiguring, traumatizing, will affect sexual health, etc.... It doesn't always sway people - but it always causes them to pause and think about it from another point of view.
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#42 of 60 Old 02-10-2008, 09:26 PM
 
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Congratulations, DivinDaddy! (and, since I assume wife is reading this too - congratulations to both of you!)

Where do things stand now?

I think the reminder that the AAP doesn't recommend circumcision, and the fact that the rate is dropping to 50% or lower, depending on where one is in the USA, are both telling.

Does your wife know that the foreskin which is removed is then sold to cosmetic companies for use in facial creams?

DH and I have had two girls, no sons. When we decided not to circ, we weren't really informed - we thought that the foreskin was just a little flap of skin, but didn't see why it had to be removed (and our Ped is very opposed to circumcision, and told us about the AAP's lack of recommendation for circ). In the past year, I've learned a lot more about circumcision and what's involved.

Honestly, it explains some real challenges that dh and I have, sexually. While it's nice to know what's caused our challenges -- that doesn't make it any more fun to HAVE those challenges. There are lots of anecdotal stories of circ not causing any sexual problems -- but there's lots of research which shows what the foreskin's function is, and that shows that sometimes there are longterm sexual issues as a result of infant circumcision. I really wish that FIL and MIL had known to say "NO" to dh's circ. Can your wife accept the very real possibility that her ds would resent her (and you too) for circing him when he's older?? Does she want a DIL who feels sad when she looks closely at her husband's penis and sees the circ scar? Does she want to risk them having an unhappy sex life?

There are some good links here - the regrets thread would also be very good to check out. I'd recommend finding a Ped who is not pro-circ. And - a very large issue to continue to look at and discuss, is the risk of staph infection at the circ site, etc. for an infant.

The bottom line is that your son can always get a circumcision later, if he wants one. But until he's old enough to be asking for one, his genitals aren't really anyone else's business - especially adult friends of you/your wife. When he's older, if he does want a circ (which is highly unlikely especially once he figures out what the foreskin does for him and his partners ) - he can have adequate pain relief, and the person giving him the circ will be far more able to give a circ which won't be too tight etc., and won't cause as many sexual problems for him.

ETA:
In terms of whether his genitals are attractive and acceptable - the people that should matter to, are him and his sexual partners. I'm pretty sure that your wife is not expecting her son to prefer women who are 18-30 years older than him, as sexual partners. The girls his age are going to be familiar with, comfortable with (and frankly, attracted to) an intact penis, given the current trends.

Not all who wander are lost.
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#43 of 60 Old 02-11-2008, 01:53 PM
 
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Someone mentioned the Regret thread. Well there is also an Intact and No Problems thread. There are a few less posts 365. But I think a lot of people mention more than one person in their family that is Intact and OK. My DH and both DS's are intact and No Problems. As well as my Dad, FIL and BIL. Canada's Cir rates are much lower than the US. Here are Canadian stats if you are interested. In 2003 the national percentage was 13.9 percent. I don't have exact stats for what it is at now, 5 years later, but I heard it is less than 10 percent now.

Wife to DH, Mom to my Intact Boys DS1: Born 02 Pain Med Free Hospital Birth, BF'ed for 9 Months, Partially Vax'd DS2: Born 06 via UC, BF'ed 3 years 10 months, and UnVax'd
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#44 of 60 Old 02-11-2008, 04:39 PM
 
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Congrats!

Can you interview pediatricians without your wife around? A pro-intact pediatrician could make a very strong argument for keeping the baby intact.

Sadly, be very careful with what documents you or your wife sign in the hospital. You will need to be there continuously to make sure they do not try to talk her into it.

You have plenty of time to convince her that it is important to protect the baby from "cosmetic surgery". Once the baby is born, the protective instinct will be even stronger.
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#45 of 60 Old 02-11-2008, 07:27 PM
 
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************************** (graphic) Try this too if she is so worried about his future girlfriends.
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#46 of 60 Old 02-12-2008, 10:46 AM
 
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She and her friends will be old ladies by the time your child is having sex... and he won't be having sex with old ladies! Their cultural preferences are irrelevant! Only the child's choice matters.

DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
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#47 of 60 Old 02-12-2008, 05:29 PM
 
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How's it going, DivinDaddy? Any progress convincing DW yet? Need anymore ideas?

Hope it's going well.
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#48 of 60 Old 02-13-2008, 08:09 PM
 
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Hope all is well Daddy. Not to be crude, but has your wife ever seen European porn? I say this because even as an intactivist, I had NEVER seen an intact man (being born in '66, it's rare for men my age or around it to be intact) erect. My dad is intact, but I didn't know it until I had my first child! My mom never mentioned it (but of course had my brothers all circ'd - another story). So I recently saw (blush) some porn from Germany and you know what? I COULDN'T TELL IF THE GUYS WERE CIRC'D! I got really curious and started looking really hard (LOL, blush) and really couldn't tell. Except when I saw one guy with a scar - that's the only way I figured it out- and it was only one. So my point is, that women in the US really don't know what they're saying when they say "he won't be able to get a blow job" intact, because as you can read from a few women here who didn't even know their husbands were intact until they saw them flaccid, IT LOOKS THE SAME! So maybe it's not the most scientific way to show someone, and I hope it's not too offensive to suggest, but watch some European porn! It really opened my (fully intactivist) eyes! Good luck, hope all is well.
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#49 of 60 Old 02-13-2008, 09:47 PM
 
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He won't be able to get a blow job? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The foreskin makes it way more fun! Okay, maybe I can't say that on here, but... Personally, I find the circ'd penis much less appealing than the intact one.

When your son gets older, would you rather that he is able to ask you:

A: can I get circumcised when I'm 18?

or

B: why did you cut off part of my penis that I can never get back?

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#50 of 60 Old 02-13-2008, 09:54 PM
 
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By the way, if you let us know what religion your wife is, we can provide you with pro-intact information. The arguments for intactness can be made very strongly for Catholic, Mormon, "other" Christian, Hindu and Unitarian.

We are not allowed to discuss religion here, but we can PM you exactly what you need.
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#51 of 60 Old 02-13-2008, 10:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laggie View Post
He won't be able to get a blow job? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The foreskin makes it way more fun! Okay, maybe I can't say that on here, but... Personally, I find the circ'd penis much less appealing than the intact one.
:

That is so true!!!

In fact, those with a dh that is intact or restored and are contemplating circ'ing their ds makes me want to smack 'em up side the head for NOT SEEING JUST HOW LUCKY THEY ARE!!!!!
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#52 of 60 Old 02-14-2008, 01:06 AM
 
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By Susan Peer

One Woman's View

If I talk to women about circumcision and they don't seem to get it,
then I make it personal. Sometimes I tell a story. (This probably
works best woman to woman.) I'll tell them to: -

Imagine that you are admitted to a hospital for some minor surgery.
On waking up from the anesthesia, you realize that your inner labia
and the hood over your clitoris have been cut off.

When you confront your doctor, he explains that the tissue that was
removed was "redundant" and not necessary for sexual functioning.

He goes on to say that you will be much easier to clean and have less
odor, there will be less chance of infection, and he felt that you
would look "better", more aesthetic.

He says that when he told all of the "risks" and "benefits" to your
family, they gave informed consent for the procedure.

How would you feel?

Now imagine that you were awake and resisting, but they did it
anyway.

If they don't get it right away, they usually will later, when they
are alone.

- Susan Peer
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#53 of 60 Old 02-14-2008, 08:47 AM
 
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Very nice way to get them thinking in a personal way about RIC.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards
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#54 of 60 Old 02-17-2008, 08:56 PM
 
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Any update?

uc.jpg  lotbirth.gif   waterbirth.jpg 
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#55 of 60 Old 02-20-2008, 07:38 PM
 
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OP: Congrats on your pregnancy and for being so educated on circing. Your future children (male or female) are lucky!

I didn't have time to read all of the posts, so I forgive if what I'm giving has been stated already.

Has your wife read the 'regret' sticky. It's hard to read, but there is great information there.

Reading this on a mainstream messageboard clinched it for me. I wish that I could give the author credit:

We hope our baby doesn't have any birth defects."
except for aposthia (lack of foreskin) which we would sort of like. (This is the one that really nailed it for me…it’s a birth defect!)

"We'd never submit our baby to a surgical procedure without a diagnosis."
except for circumcision, which doctors let us decide about.

"It is not OK to hurt babies."
except when they 'have to be' circumcised.

"We'd never unnecessarily place our baby at risk of infection or injury."
except to get him circumcised.

"We'd never permit healthy tissue to be removed from our baby."
unless it is his foreskin.

"It is our job to protect our baby from pain."
except from his circumcision.

"We must aid and comfort our baby when he is injured."
except during his circumcision which we'll pretend doesn't hurt.

"We'd never take the easy way out of caring for our baby."
unless it is a boy. Then we'll have his penis altered so we
won't have to take care of the great unknown: foreskin.

"We'd never allow anything to impair our baby's bonding with his mother."
except for the pain of circumcision.

"We want our baby to grow up happy with his body."
but we'll jeopardize his self-esteem by cutting the center of
his male body image: his penis.

"We'd never let our child feel robbed of something if we could prevent it."
except for his foreskin which we hold to be worthless
(and we don't care what he might think).

"We'd never place our child at a disadvantage where he could be ridiculed."
except we'll alter his penis so it doesn't look like or function
like the vast majority in the world.

"We wouldn't want our baby to doubt our commitment to him."
but we'll let a stranger cut off his foreskin, and we'll let
him grow up knowing that we couldn't or wouldn't protect him
from this invasion of his body.

"We'd never do anything to make our baby doubt our love."
except we'll have part of his body destroyed by circumcision.

"We'd never do anything to our baby just because it was done to us."
except we'll circumcise him so he'll be just like his Daddy.

"We don't hold with tribal markings just to make children feel part of a clan as they do in primitive cultures."
except we'll circumcise our boys in the (vain) hope that they'll
all look alike in the locker room.

"We would not compromise our baby just to bend to societal pressures."
except we'll circumcise him because the grandparents expect it,
and what would the neighbors say?

"We'd never impose our will on our child against his future wishes."
except we'll rush to circumcise him before he can even
formulate his wishes.

"We'd never compromise our baby's future happiness."
but we will remove an erogenous part of his body.

"We'd never make an irreversible decision to alter our child's appearance in a way he might one day regret, such as tattooing."
unless it is to alter the appearance of his penis in a way -we- want.

"We want our baby to grow up a -human- being."
but we'll teach him, by circumcising him, that human rights
don't amount to much.

"We'll love our baby in all his glory."
except for his foreskin which we'll have cut off and thrown
in the trash.

"God made our baby with love, care and wisdom."
except for his penis which needs to be 'fixed'.

"We hold that all parts of our baby's body are sacred."
except for his foreskin which is ours to alter as we will.

"It is wrong to deprive someone of a healthy part of their body."
unless it is the male foreskin. And, if you live in North
Africa, a girl's clitoris and labia minora.


I wish you both a safe and healthy pregnancy and delivery!
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#56 of 60 Old 02-20-2008, 07:41 PM
 
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Theresa, thanks for posting that!

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#57 of 60 Old 02-20-2008, 07:45 PM
 
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Wow that was great; again thanks for posting that.
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#58 of 60 Old 02-20-2008, 08:00 PM
 
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Theresa, again thanks for posting that.


DivinDaddy, do you have an update for us?

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#59 of 60 Old 02-20-2008, 10:35 PM
 
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Thanks for posting that, Theresa! I have never seen that before, but I am going to keep it on file for whenever I am talking to expectant parents about circ.
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#60 of 60 Old 02-21-2008, 03:27 AM
 
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I'm married to an intact male.

Besides belonging to the man I love, there's nothing radically different between his penis and a circumsized one. It's not any less clean. He never smells down there (his feet are another story), and he's never had any medical issues because of it.

RIC isn't common here (BC) anymore, so it's just a bizarre notion to me to think women would find it "gross" or unappealing.

I actually prefer it over a circumsized penis because to me, it feels better when we're intimate. I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to type that, but obviously, sexual function is one of the primary uses of the penis, so I think I can say what I want about that.
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