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#31 of 49 Old 04-29-2008, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MyBoysBlue View Post
This happened to my little brother at 5 as well. You know why? The docs though that he should have been retractable by that age and he wasn't. He was my parents only boy so they didn't know when was the appropriate age. They can become retractable as late as puberty.

Im sorry, but what does that mean? Ive never been part of this lingo LOL. What does retractable mean?
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#32 of 49 Old 04-29-2008, 02:57 PM
 
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Retractable means that the foreskin can be slid back down the shaft of the penis. In babies and children (sometimes up to and beyond puberty) the foreskin remains attached to the glans - like a fingernail to the nail bed.

It is supposed to be this way - this is what we mean by doctors forceably retracting - it's not supposed to retract and you don't have to clean underneath it because it is attached.

When the foreskin retracts, the man's penis will look like a circumcised penis when erect.

Victim of Birth Rape & Coerced ribboncesarean.gifUnnecesareanribboncesarean.gif What makes people think they can cut up someone else's genitals? nocirc.gif
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#33 of 49 Old 04-29-2008, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Retractable means that the foreskin can be slid back down the shaft of the penis. In babies and children (sometimes up to and beyond puberty) the foreskin remains attached to the glans - like a fingernail to the nail bed.

It is supposed to be this way - this is what we mean by doctors forceably retracting - it's not supposed to retract and you don't have to clean underneath it because it is attached.

When the foreskin retracts, the man's penis will look like a circumcised penis when erect.

Does it just move back for them to pee? Ive never seen one upclose to know how it all works. Well Ive seen one, but not an intact one!
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#34 of 49 Old 04-29-2008, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommyintx View Post
Does it just move back for them to pee? Ive never seen one upclose to know how it all works. Well Ive seen one, but not an intact one!
Well there is enough space for a guy to pee even if he does not pull back his foreskin back.

Does anyone have that animated graphic of a foreskin retracting, so she can actually see what it looks like?
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#35 of 49 Old 04-29-2008, 03:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommyintx View Post
Does it just move back for them to pee? Ive never seen one upclose to know how it all works. Well Ive seen one, but not an intact one!
Not necessarily, some men pull it back to pee, some don't. It does slide back and forth during sex though...it's the thing that ribbed condoms are trying to imitate.

The foreskin in most cases will continue to cover the glans unless retracred all the time. This is what maintains sensitivity and keeps it moist and un calloused. A circumcised penis does not have this protection since it has been made an external organ instead of the internal organ it was designed to be. This is why circumcised men's glans are dry, kartonized and much less sensitive. They also loose the natural lubrication that allows sex to be much smoother.

Once it's retractable, the boy/man just has to slide it back, rinse and replace in the shower to clean. Until then, you just wipe it like a finger.

Victim of Birth Rape & Coerced ribboncesarean.gifUnnecesareanribboncesarean.gif What makes people think they can cut up someone else's genitals? nocirc.gif
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#36 of 49 Old 04-29-2008, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks so much! Off to research now why the kiddos are napping. Wow!
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#37 of 49 Old 04-29-2008, 09:10 PM
 
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Hi and Welcome!

I had 2 girls first and then my son as well. If my oldest had been a boy, I'm afraid I would have circumcised because I didn't know any better. I'm glad that I had a girl first and that I became educated by the time I had my son.
I researched it while pregnant with Keegan and knew within 5 minutes that I would never do that to my child. I don't think I can add any more than what has already been said, but I have to agree with all of it.

: Robyn : Increasingly crunchy Mama to Kya (8) , Makena (7) , and Keegan (4) :
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#38 of 49 Old 04-30-2008, 04:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mommyintx View Post

Why are ppl so against it? Not just a no thats bad but hugely against it. I understand to a point, but the huge amount of advocacy for it, I guess is where I dont.
Hi! Congrats on your pregnancy and welcome to the forum.
To the point, I'm against it because I've seen it.
I've seen those babies strapped down with a healthy and functioning body part removed for no good reason. I've seen those babies shriek in pain and then have a glazed over look of shock in their eyes. I'm against it because it goes against everything I've ever learned in nursing school, everything protective and compassionate I feel as a human and as a mom, and it defies logic. Why surgically remove a healthy part of anatomy? We do this for no other body part.

I'm also very much against infant circumcision because I've seen, more than once, circumcisions gone bad. Very bad. It's bad enough that a boy endures all of this in the name of "cosmetics" or because their parents bought into all the lies and myths. But then to see the ones who go to NICU because they almost bled to death or the ones who had half their glans "accidentally" cut off, it's truly heartbreaking! To know these infants will have to endure a second reconstructive surgery only adds insult to injury.
You spoke of your brother needing a circ at 5 and not wanting to put your son through that. I assure you, a baby feels the pain just as much as a 5 year old, he just isn't able to verbalize it. And I promise you you do not want a child to go through a botched circ job (a few poor babies have even died due to circumcision [not at my hosptial]). The only way to avoid that is to not circumcise at all.

Why do I feel so passionately about this? I hate to see anyone suffer. I truly believe the majority of parents would not circ if they knew the truth about an intact penis. My son is intact and fine. I could just wash my hands of all of this and chalk it up to "parental choice" for the other families.
Except when those babies cry and when those babies get botched circ jobs, I cry right along with them. It keeps me awake at night. I would hope if I was about to make an unnecessary surgical decision for my child that some person out there would care enough to show me the other side.
The other side of circ is your son is born with a healthy, natural, perfect, functional, sensual part of his anatomy put their by God/Mother Nature/who or whatever you choose to believe.
Why would any parent want to take that away from a small, helpless baby? I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'd bet 99%, if not 100%, of those parents who had a baby suffer a bothced circumcision or even death wishes every day they would have let their son keep the body they were born with.

I really hope you'll look into all the information and leave your son intact.
If you're still on the fence, please watch a video. That will give you your answer.

Mom &  RN   intactivist.gif
Pardon the typos - CWOK (cat walking on keyboard)   signcirc1.gif

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#39 of 49 Old 04-30-2008, 02:28 PM
 
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Welcome! Congratulations on your little boy!

First of all, I wasn't against it until I got pregnant with my first, a boy. I looked at it with out being biased by a culture that circumcises. When I really thought about taking an infant and cutting his genitals with no anesthesia it made me sick to my stomach. Then, I thought "Well, I could just go in their with him and comfort him" then I watched the video, I thought "Yeah, right! I don't wanna watch my son go through that..." Which led me to thinking, if I can't even watch him go through that, why should he have to? Then I learned that the main problem with being intact in the US is the lack of information. Once you learn and know, you understand why people are against it.

My thoughts are, you are altering a babies genitals because you prefer the way it looks. Their is not any significant reason to do so as most of the world is intact and do not have the issues that we in the US believe comes from being intact.

Anyways, I could go on...

Bottom line, it's my sons body, not mine to cut up on. I could not imagine having him swept out of the comfort of my arms and taken and strapped down to have such a procedure preformed on him all because of culture or cosmetic reasons.

Everyone here has so much great information, stick around and read and learn! You will see why so many people are against it.

~*Have more than you show, speak less than you know*~

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#40 of 49 Old 04-30-2008, 04:16 PM
 
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Hi!

Most of your questions have been answered with pretty much the same answers I would give you. I know you don't want all kinds of links; and I put this response in discussion form; but I've linked some of what I've said for reference purposes, just in case you wanted it. I also have a whole email that I can forward to you that I put together to dispel myths about circumcision; feel free to PM me with your email address if you'd like me to forward it to you.

First, let me offer up some quick background about myself: I have one son who I circ'd because I was very mis-informed and I thought I'd be doing him harm if I didn't. I tried to get information about it, but wasn't fortunate enough to have access to anti-circ information at the time. I'm glad you've got the opportunity in front of you to learn what I didn't know then; and that you're taking that opportunity. I never would have done it if I'd known even a fraction of what's been said on this thread before my post!! I'm expecting my second (also a boy) and there's no way he's getting circ'd. When you know better, you do better. Today, I live with intense regret over the circumcision of my son; and the time you spend researching it will be well worth it to not have to suffer like I am now.

You mentioned in your first post that it's really hard to find unbiased information about circumcision; and when I first started researching it; I felt that way too. But as someone mentioned earlier; no medical organizations recommend routine infant circumcision; and it's even been classified as genital mutilation (I'll give you one example of this) ...for which girls are protected against by law!

In my researching, it became clear to me that it wasn't so much about a tug-of-war over which 'side' is right; as much as the anti-circumcision stuff started to make much more sense than the reasons given to circumcise. For example, why remove the foreskin if there isn't a reason to yet? I started to compare it to other things; like tonsils. Tonsillectomies were very common when I was a kid (the view on this has since changed); so would it have been right to take a baby's tonsils then, just in case they got an infection? The foreskin is the same deal. I started to think in an 'if ain't broke; don't fix it' kind of way; and the truth is; if it becomes 'broke' in the future; it's likely to be solved with a simple solution like medicine; not a scalpel.

Some of your questions weren't answered as far as I saw. I'll answer them for you...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyintx View Post
...Why arent newborns given any pain medicine?...
When I learned that most newborns aren't given pain medication, my first thought was that the parents aren't in the room to 'supervise' whether or not numbing ointment is applied; so why bother? Doctor might as well save on the cost and make more money! It's not like the baby can tattle anyways! But there's even more to it. While researching; I learned that the numbing cream isn't recommended for use on mucous membranes; nor is it recommended for people under one month of age!! Learning that made me pretty : too!

Also; let's talk technicalities. A numbing cream would only numb the outer layer of the foreskin. The way a circumcision is done; the foreskin (which is not meant to be retracted) is forcibly ripped away from the penis, slit, crushed and cut away! The baby is going to feel every bit of that; numbing cream or not. If you want to relate to what that might be like; ask yourself if you'd let your dentist perform oral surgery on you after applying some simple topical cream...? Probably not. See what I'm saying?


Also, I know firsthand how difficult it is to watch the video; but you can see the process in pictures and text as well. It's still shocking, but a little easier to handle than the video (which features heartbreakingly intense wailing from the baby), while still learning about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyintx View Post
...I dont want women thinking my son is weird or look bad...
I'm glad you chose to be honest and address this 'fear'; instead of letting it eat at you. When my son was born; I was totally grossed out by foreskin. This was not; and wouldn't have been a deciding factor in circumcising my son. When I was in that position (to circ, or not to circ); my questions were entirely based on medical benefit vs. it being unnecessary. If I'd found it to be an unnecessary procedure; I wouldn't have done it anyways because of my own personal gross-out issue.

But your question was about women in his future reacting badly to him. I can answer that too....because I was one of those people. But then I fell in love with someone who was intact; and it turned out not to bother me at all. In fact; it turned out to be the most comfortable I've ever been during sex. To be perfectly honest; that fact never even occurred to me until I read a thread on here discussing how foreskin makes sex better; and I found myself nodding the whole time! It was then that I went from simply being okay with the fact that he was intact; to considering myself truly lucky to have a partner who was intact; and was sad for those who weren't.

In the end; the biggest thing to remember is that it doesn't have to be done right away. They'll pressure you into thinking so; because circumcision is BIG money (from doctor's fee's earned; to the $375/1 ml sale of foreskin; to the costly anti-wrinkle cream in which foreskin is an ingredient!!). No matter what they tell you; remember that if you're still unsure, it's better to wait and learn more, than to make a knee-jerk decision and regret it later. Once it's done, you can't take it back!

I hope that helps; but if you have any other nagging questions or concerns lingering in the back of your mind (I noticed, for example, that you didn't ask about cleanliness... which is a common concern); please ask them! If you're not comfortable asking out here; I'd be more than happy to help if you PM me.

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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#41 of 49 Old 04-30-2008, 06:22 PM
 
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Fabulous post!
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#42 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 10:13 AM
 
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Thank you :

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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#43 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 10:18 AM
 
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Who would buy a infant male's foreskin? You'd be surprised!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yX2SocprdI
The bio-tech industry's profits ($$$) in infant males' foreskins.

You're paying someone to mutilate your child! It just doesn't make any sense!
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#44 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 10:36 AM
 
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And to tie together a few things that Blue Raz said, one big reason that they do not use pain medication is so that they can sell it. They can only sell it for creams and research and whatnot if it's "pure", so if they put the numbing cream on it wouldn't be worth money anymore. :
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#45 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 11:17 AM
 
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Welcome, mommyintx! And Congratulations on your pregnancy. I'll share with you my story, to explain why I feel the way I do abot infant circumcision:

When I was pregnant 14 years ago, we had no idea that circumcision was controversial. Dh and I both believed that it was more of a social thing than medical, and our family doctor agreed. Our thoughts at the times were as follows: 1) That's GOT to HURT! We didn't want to do anything to cause our babies pain. 2) Circumcision is a custom that we did not feel obligated to continue.

I first discovered a circumcision debate board when the boys were a year or two old. I tried very hard to find a reason TO circumcise my sons - after all, DH and I didn't do any research before they were born (other than talking to our doctor), and I wanted what was best for them. I figured if there was a good reason for circumcision, it wasn't too late.

The more I learned, the more I realized that the purported medical benefits of infant circumcision weren't that great. I also learned about the risk of complications, such as adhesions, meatal stenosis, hemmorage and infection. I also learned more about how the operation was performed - often without any anesthetic.

At the same time, I could see for myself that a foreskin was nothing to be afraid of. Not only were they my sons' very favorite bathtub toy, I appreciated how they protected my sons' penises from particularly ooky diapers.

But all this time I was still very much "pro-parental choice". I figured it was up to each set of parents to decide what to do - I didn't feel strongly about intactivism.

Then, in October of 1998, I read in my local paper about Dustin Evans, the Cleveland boy that died as a result of circmcision complications. I was absolutely appalled. I never in a million years would have imagined that a normal, healthy baby boy could die because of his circumcision. That day I jumped firmly off the fence onto the anti-circumcision camp, and I haven't seen anything in 10 years to change my mind.

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#46 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 11:23 AM
 
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You might also be interested in how my sons feel about it. When they learned about circumcision when they were 8, they were absolutely horrified. They couldn't understand why anyone would want to cut off their foreskin. When I explained that most people don't choose it for themselves, but their parents do it to them, they were appalled. They got very sad, and felt very sorry for any babies that got circumcised. When we explained that their Dad was circumcised, one of them said "Poor Dad! He's missing the best part!"

Now, at 13, they wouldn't give their foreskins up for anything.

My son's response, I think, it very telling. Since they had never heard of circumcision before, the idea was completely foreign, and bizarre. If we were not raised in a society that considered infant circumcision "normal", we would all be shocked and horrified at the idea of cutting the normal, healthy genitals of a baby boy.

So instead of thinking about this in terms of "Why shouldn't I circumcise my son?", instead ask yourself "Why should I?"

I guarantee you will not be able to come up with a reason good enough to justify the pain and risk of complications - both immediate and long-term.

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#47 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Since someone questioned me in a pm, I can have had sex with someone left intact and not understand the complete anatomy. It doesnt mean that I know that it retracted and did this and that. I didnt study it in depth!
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#48 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 11:54 PM
 
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(bolding mine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyintx View Post
Since someone questioned me in a pm, I can have had sex with someone left intact and not understand the complete anatomy. It doesnt mean that I know that it retracted and did this and that. I didnt study it in depth!
Absolutely! There was one woman on here a while ago (maybe she's still around, I haven't been around much lately and don't remember who it was ) who had sex with an intact man and didn't even know he was intact until much later. Intact and circumcised penises look virtually the same when erect which puts into perspective the "circumcised penises look better" argument Especially since the vast majority of Americans who use that argument have never even seen a whole penis in real life.

I even didn't know my ex-boyfriend of one year was intact until after we broke up... his current girlfriend (at the time) who was a friend of mine told me I didn't know what retraction was called despite being married to an intact man until I started reading here two years into my marriage and 4 years into our relationship. I must admit that I'm very happy dh has all his bits and so is he!

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#49 of 49 Old 05-01-2008, 11:59 PM
 
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(bolding mine)



Absolutely! There was one woman on here a while ago (maybe she's still around, I haven't been around much lately and don't remember who it was ) who had sex with an intact man and didn't even know he was intact until much later. Intact and circumcised penises look virtually the same when erect which puts into perspective the "circumcised penises look better" argument Especially since the vast majority of Americans who use that argument have never even seen a whole penis in real life.

I even didn't know my ex-boyfriend of one year was intact until after we broke up... his current girlfriend (at the time) who was a friend of mine told me I didn't know what retraction was called despite being married to an intact man until I started reading here two years into my marriage and 4 years into our relationship. I must admit that I'm very happy dh has all his bits and so is he!

love and peace.
I could have written your post. I think I am the person you speak of. I really had no idea the mechanics of it until I looked into it when I found out I was having a boy. I knew it was a pointless mean surgery but I had no idea HOW mean it was until I was looking around the interweb and came upon some pictures.
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