S/O of a S/O Do you consider RIC sexual abuse? - Mothering Forums
View Poll Results: Do you consider RIC sexual abuse?
Yes, even though it is legal it is clearly an abuse against an innocent person. 133 74.72%
No, I don't think it's abusive because it is legal. 6 3.37%
No, I wouldn't consider it abusive even if it were illegal. 29 16.29%
I'm not sure and would like to explain in a post. 10 5.62%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll

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#1 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The title says it all, do you personally consider RIC sexual abuse? I think so, even though it is legal. Just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical. I'm adding a poll.

This is a spin off from a few posts in this thread. Specifically posts number 1, 81, 82, 83, 89, 90, 91, and 92.

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#2 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 06:56 PM
 
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I absolutely consider it sexual abuse.
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#3 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 07:01 PM
 
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Honestly, I'm not sure how you could call it anything else?

If people were doing this to adults it would absolutely be considered sexual abuse. Just because an innocent baby doesn't have the words to say no, it's not?

I know, I'm preaching to the choir here...
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#4 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 07:11 PM
 
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Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child. While some medical procedures have therapeutic necessity and we have to deal with the evils that come with them...circumcision is not necessary. So...

The child is made naked.

The are strapped down in a spread eagle position with their genitals presented.

Pieces of their genitals are clamped and crushed....they are tied off or safety pinned...allowed to rot off or are cut or torn. Some accounts say that doctors stimulate an erection before the use of certain clamps, though I cannot say if this is true.

Then, as is the case with most circumcised boys in the USA, they are made to endure days, months, weeks, and sometimes even years of their caregivers manipulating their penis by push back the remaining foreskin and sometimes even applying barrier cream each time.


If it was a girl and there were no therapeutic reasons for doing such things, how would we view it?

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#5 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 07:18 PM
 
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Absolutely.

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#6 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 07:33 PM
 
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No doubt about it.

 
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#7 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 07:48 PM
 
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With out a doubt it is abuse.

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#8 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It would be nice to hear the reasoning of why circumcision is not abusive from the four people who voted that way. I'm truly interested to hear how anyone can consider an infant being strapped down and having part of his completely normal body removed solely on the consent of another person does not cross the bounderies of abuse.

Perhaps, if you don't want to post publicly, you could PM your response to someone on this thread who can then quote you but leave your name off the quote.

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#9 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 08:37 PM
 
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Of course.
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#10 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 08:46 PM
 
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Yes, it is abuse.

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#11 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 08:49 PM
 
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We have to be careful because there are so many caregivers that have been talked into this without full knowledge and there is a lot of regret out there. While, in my heart, I feel circumcision is abusive, it's tough to talk about it in that light when we are trying to change the hearts of others (and even those who have come to our side may feel put out or upset by this kind of categorization)

It's a tough line to walk....but I think it must be a lot like those who are very pro life and feel abortion is akin to murder but don't talk about it like that when they are trying to change the hearts of others.

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#12 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 09:10 PM
 
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Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.

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#13 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 09:23 PM
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It's sexual abuse, pure and simple, just the way female circumcision is sexual abuse. The motive behind it might be slightly different than say a pedophile's motive, but when it comes down to i, all kinds of abuse, including sexual abuse, are about absolute power over a terrified victim....and that's pretty much what male genital mutilation is.
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#14 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 10:07 PM
 
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I'm not sure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanyam926 View Post
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.
I think I agree here. Circumcision is ABUSE. Plain and simple. But SEXUAL abuse... I don't know.
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#15 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, this is a thought in progress, so bear with me.

I think all abuse depends on perspective.

Routine infant circumcision, meaning specifically the circumcision done to infant boys at birth for no medical reason, is always (sexual) abuse from the perspective of the baby because he is having part of his body amputated. It happens to be a sexual part of the body, and the removal does have effects on sexual functioning later in life, so it's not too farfetched to consider it sexual abuse. A person could argue that since a baby does not have the words to describe how he feels, then there is no way to know that he perceives RIC as an abuse or an assault against his body. However, ask the vast majority of people if they would feel they had been abused (or assaulted, which might be a more accurate term, but I'm not really here to argue semantics) if as adults they were drugged and had a section of skin and tissue the size of an adult man's foreskin removed from their upper thigh, high enough to normally be covered by clothing. How many of them would not feel abused in some way?

RIC is often, but not always, considered abuse by the men and women who have been affected by the practice. This includes both men who grow up to find that their penis was changed from it's natural state for no reason at birth, and men and women who realize that circumcision has affected their sex life.

Just because circumcision falls under the category of abuse does not mean the parent who chose it is an abuser, or they don't love their kids, or that they abuse them in other ways. I've always been of the mindset that it's nice to be considerant of adult's feelings, but the bodily integrity of a person is much more important than feelings. It might take hurting a few feelings to get the idea out that RIC is not acceptable any longer. As long as we tone down the language of how terrible RIC is in the effort to not offend anyone who feels bad about circumcision we are telling people that it's not really that big of a deal. The message they get is, "Oh, it's bad, but not bad enough to really raise some noise about, so it's not that bad."

Does any of that make sense?

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#16 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 10:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
We have to be careful because there are so many caregivers that have been talked into this without full knowledge and there is a lot of regret out there. While, in my heart, I feel circumcision is abusive, it's tough to talk about it in that light when we are trying to change the hearts of others (and even those who have come to our side may feel put out or upset by this kind of categorization)

It's a tough line to walk....but I think it must be a lot like those who are very pro life and feel abortion is akin to murder but don't talk about it like that when they are trying to change the hearts of others.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanyam926 View Post
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.
I see your point.
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#17 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 10:35 PM
 
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Yes I do. You have to be severely messed up in the head to perform a circumcision.

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#18 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 10:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplestraws View Post
Honestly, I'm not sure how you could call it anything else?

If people were doing this to adults it would absolutely be considered sexual abuse. Just because an innocent baby doesn't have the words to say no, it's not?

I know, I'm preaching to the choir here...
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#19 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 11:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child. While some medical procedures have therapeutic necessity and we have to deal with the evils that come with them...circumcision is not necessary. So...

The child is made naked.

The are strapped down in a spread eagle position with their genitals presented.

Pieces of their genitals are clamped and crushed....they are tied off or safety pinned...allowed to rot off or are cut or torn. Some accounts say that doctors stimulate an erection before the use of certain clamps, though I cannot say if this is true.

Then, as is the case with most circumcised boys in the USA, they are made to endure days, months, weeks, and sometimes even years of their caregivers manipulating their penis by push back the remaining foreskin and sometimes even applying barrier cream each time.


If it was a girl and there were no therapeutic reasons for doing such things, how would we view it?
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#20 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 11:09 PM
 
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I definitely do think it is abuse, but I think it's different than, say, raping someone, because many parents who circ aren't doing it to specifically harm their kids. It's just all they know, and they don't really think about it. I'm not saying that's an excuse at all, but we need to get the truth out to people, so that they can have all the facts, and hopefully choose to not circ in the future.

I'm going to make an analogy, and I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I think you'll get my point. I have two cats, and I got them both declawed without really looking into it, just assuming that's what you do. Well, my second cat had a really hard recovery, and I felt terrible for him. I decided from that point on that I would never declaw another cat again. It was a pointless and cosmetic surgery for my convenience. Was it abuse? I believe so. But it wasn't the same thing as kicking my cats or starving them, because I wasn't intentionally harming them, KWIM?

Now, in regards to circ, it all changes when they DO have the info, but decide to circ anyway.

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#21 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 11:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplestraws View Post
Honestly, I'm not sure how you could call it anything else?

If people were doing this to adults it would absolutely be considered sexual abuse. Just because an innocent baby doesn't have the words to say no, it's not?
I definitely see your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anne1140 View Post
I definitely do think it is abuse, but I think it's different than, say, raping someone, because many parents who circ aren't doing it to specifically harm their kids. It's just all they know, and they don't really think about it. I'm not saying that's an excuse at all, but we need to get the truth out to people, so that they can have all the facts, and hopefully choose to not circ in the future.
I agree.
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#22 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 11:41 PM
 
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Very interesting thread. Before reading the post, I did put in the poll that I do consider it sexual abuse. However, there have been some great posts that now have me second thinking my response. While I do think the child is being sexually abused, who is the sexual abuser? Is it the doctor performing this completely unnecessary act (especially because they know medically it isn't necessary)? I do know that I cannot be friends with a doc here I know who performs RIC as part of her duties here on the base even though her other views mesh with mine (other AP/NFL values) which is way hard to find here. Hmmm, things to think about. . .

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#23 of 129 Old 05-22-2008, 11:56 PM
 
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It is most certainly child abuse, but I don't consider it sexual abuse. It is evil and horrible, but different because of the motives behind it.
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#24 of 129 Old 05-23-2008, 12:09 AM
 
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WOW, I have 3 kids, 2 daughters and 1 son, my son is 19 and he was circumsized as a newborn, i had it done because everybody i knew had their sons circumsized. Honestly i didn't know much about it. I definetly don't think its sexual abuse, thats just crazy, yes in sexual abuse there has to be a person who is getting sexual gratification. No one is. I do think it is abuse. Though knowing what i know now, i would not circumsize. Its so painful for baby and serves no real purpose. I really don't understand why its so recconmened.

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#25 of 129 Old 05-23-2008, 12:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child. While some medical procedures have therapeutic necessity and we have to deal with the evils that come with them...circumcision is not necessary. So...

The child is made naked.

The are strapped down in a spread eagle position with their genitals presented.

Pieces of their genitals are clamped and crushed....they are tied off or safety pinned...allowed to rot off or are cut or torn. Some accounts say that doctors stimulate an erection before the use of certain clamps, though I cannot say if this is true.

Then, as is the case with most circumcised boys in the USA, they are made to endure days, months, weeks, and sometimes even years of their caregivers manipulating their penis by push back the remaining foreskin and sometimes even applying barrier cream each time.


If it was a girl and there were no therapeutic reasons for doing such things, how would we view it?
Couldnt have said it any better. It absolutely is sexual abuse, just as fgm is sexual abuse. Sometimes I get really sad just knowing that most of the guys I know have had to endure this

For something to qualify as sexual abuse does not require that a person get sexual gratification from it. Its just abuse that is of a sexual nature ( in this case, physical abuse involving the genitals.)
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#26 of 129 Old 05-23-2008, 12:31 AM
 
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Sure it is sexual abuse....it is doing something to someones sexual organs without their consent. It is, at the core, about power...just like rape, etc.

Brief (true) story: when I had my first child a doctor swept my membranes without my consent (I though he was merely doing an internal). While I do not think he did it for sexual gratification - I still felt assaulted.

In the case of circ - it can affect later feelings and experiences of sexuality - it is robbing a child of his right to an intact sexual relationship...how is this not sexual assault???
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#27 of 129 Old 05-23-2008, 12:33 AM
 
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I do not think it's sexual abuse. I am anti-circ my son is not and no man in my immediate family is(father, husband, brother, etc) but I'm not willing to label it sexual abuse flat out wrong yes.
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#28 of 129 Old 05-23-2008, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is something to think about.

A) The ridged band and frenulum, two parts of the foreskin amputated during RIC are the most sensitive parts of the penis. Amputating them is equivilant to a woman losing her clitoris, which is the most sensitive part of the female genital anatomy.

B) The foreskin, especially in an infant, but often in adults, protects the urinary meatus from irritants in the same way the inner labia protects the meatus (and clitoris) of a girl.

I know it's hard for many people to accept how much RIC parallels FGM because our culture has ingrained in us that male circumcision doesn't affect boys like it does girls. Something to think about, though.

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#29 of 129 Old 05-23-2008, 01:04 AM
 
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i would say yes,it is abusive.
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#30 of 129 Old 05-23-2008, 01:22 AM
 
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Okay, to those (2 so far) who chose that they consider circumcision to be non-abusive *only* because it's legal:

I don't understand your position at all and I'm wondering why on earth you feel that the legal status of an action is what determines whether the action is abusive or not. Does that mean that you consider female circumcision to be non-abusive in the countries where it's legal as well?

love and peace.

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