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#31 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 04:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
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I also want to add that I am not saying my boy won't have good hygeine because he's a boy. It is actually my experience with my 8 year old daughter, who is horrible at it unless we step in that is making me wonder about the hygeine issue. I do not want to have to inspect my son's private area the way I have to inspect my daughter's teeth. The smell of her pants is horrible but her "forgetting" to put on underwear insures adequate airflow to the area. This (airflow) is where I see a pro for being circumsised.

However, I don't want to judge my infant based on his sister. I have another daughter with impeccable hygeine.
There are NO "pros" to reducing a male newborn's healthy sexual organs. Nope. NOT ONE SINGLE "pro". None.

More skin, more sexual nerves, more pleasure. Its really that simple.

Men aren't stupid. They can remember Retract, Rinse, Replace. Three R's - thats not complicated. To amputate normal body parts for hygene is not only insane its insulting. C'mon, they're not stupid.

Tell me, how is it cleaner to have urine and feces up against an open wound? I bet that stings like hell.
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#32 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 04:19 PM
 
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I'm not making any arguments FOR circumsicion.....I'm looking for info beyond "my personal opinion". Quite frankly, I do not think the issue (at least for me) is about appearances. I'm sure it is for others but I'm only concerned with my son at this point and not other people's kids.

I've not found ANY info that supports the statement that women get circumcised often due to recurrent infections. I'm not sure where you found that.

I came to this forum because the data behind "Circumsicion lowers risk of HIV" is clearly not sound and the idea is rediculous. I'm looking for data on bacterial and yeast type of infections and some real life experience like....can you smell your boys due to lack of care or do they take the cleaning seriously? I'm sure there is a variety of experiences here.

....And when I feel funky, like when an infection might be brewing down there ...I do increase the airflow by not wearing any underwear. Wearing it will bring it on in those times.
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#33 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 04:24 PM
 
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.....I would really like to thank the men who have spoken up here. I have gotten some good input from you guys about it from the adult male perpective. So far, I've only been thinking from a Mom's perspective and it's good to widen my view.
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#34 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 04:41 PM
 
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Guys get the same infections girls do so I have no idea why men are getting circumcised instead of getting the right treatments. Maybe it's because we live in a culture that doesn't value or understand normal male anatomy.

Do you really think cutting of your son's foreskin to maybe prevent (eventhough circed guys get the same infections) infections isn't a little extreme, to put it mildly?

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#35 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 04:49 PM
 
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My sons have never smelled bad there nor have they had an infection. Washing genitals really isn't very hard and I have full confidence in my chidlren's ability (my sons and my daughter) to clean themselves.
Circumcised men also get yeast infections ect. Treatment is the same for men as it is for women , circed or not.

And reducing infections is one of the reasons given for why circumcising females is best. Women who are circumcised are supposed to get less infections. It's easier to keep a vulva clean after all with out all that dirty labia getting in the way.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#36 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 05:25 PM
 
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The "intact men smell" canard must have been made up by a circed man with an inferiority complex. You would have to go for weeks or months without washing for there to be any perceptible smell. Washing is easy and easily taught. Women pull their clitoral prepuces back and rinse. Men pull their foreskins back and rinse. If you get your boy in the habit of pulling back as far as if will go and rinsing early when he can do it himself (you never need to do it) on you will never have any problem and neither will he.
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#37 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
Every single medical organization in the world with a position statement on routine infant circumcision states that the potential (i.e. unproven) benefits do not outweigh the known risks of circumcision. Therefore none of them recommends it for health or hygiene.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

This is from medical organizations such as the AAP and its equivalents in other English-speaking countries such as the UK and Australia (in other words, places where circumcision took root for historical reasons in the 19th century).

You should really do some research on the history of non-ritual/non-religious male circumcision. It was begun in the 19th century PRECISELY to control male sexuality and diminish sexual pleasure. During the Victorian era, it was thought that masturbation led to physical and moral disease, and therefore that circumcision -- reducing sensation in the penis and eliminating the gliding action of the foreskin that allows for easy and pleasurable masturbation -- would promote so-called moral hygiene.

These are the exact same reasons that cultures such as those in many parts of Africa and Asia give for circumcising girls -- that they'll be cleaner, less prone to disease, and morally more pure if parts of their genitals are removed. Even in this country, up until the 1970s, circumcision for girls was covered by many health insurance plans, and girls could be circumcised if their clitoris was "too prominent" or if they masturbated "too much."

Ever since the 19th century, circumcision has been the cure for the "disease du jour." It has been claimed -- in medical journals -- that circumcision cures or prevents epilepsy, cerebral palsy, tuberculosis, syphilis, and more -- and the latest disease du jour is HIV.

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

Read this slide show of quotations from doctors and medical journals:

http://www.icgi.org/information/medicalization/

And take a look at the history of female circumcision in the US:

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...id=76&Itemid=6

and the reasons that women still insist on circumcising their daughters in other cultures:

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

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Originally Posted by Mamma
I'm not making any arguments FOR circumsicion.....I'm looking for info beyond "my personal opinion". Quite frankly, I do not think the issue (at least for me) is about appearances. I'm sure it is for others but I'm only concerned with my son at this point and not other people's kids.

I've not found ANY info that supports the statement that women get circumcised often due to recurrent infections. I'm not sure where you found that.

I came to this forum because the data behind "Circumsicion lowers risk of HIV" is clearly not sound and the idea is rediculous. I'm looking for data on bacterial and yeast type of infections and some real life experience like....can you smell your boys due to lack of care or do they take the cleaning seriously? I'm sure there is a variety of experiences here.

....And when I feel funky, like when an infection might be brewing down there ...I do increase the airflow by not wearing any underwear. Wearing it will bring it on in those times.
My intact son is 6 and has never smelled funky or gross. OTOH, my circumcised husband sure does after a workout or if he's been outside doing yard work and gets all hot and sweaty. That's what a shower is for. It's not the foreskin that promotes bad smells, it's sweat and bacteria combined.

In terms of genital smells, my dds smell way funkier than my son ever does -- my middle dd has very concentrated urine and just gets smelly. Again, regular baths take care of it.

Hygiene for the intact male is ridiculously easy -- when they're babies, never retract the foreskin and wipe like a finger. As they get old enough to retract themselves, teach them to retract in the bath and swish in clean water, then replace the foreskin. That's it. I've seen smegma on my dds -- but never, not once, on my son. Diaper changes were easier on him too -- no folds for poop to get in.

Really, hygiene is a non-issue. Would you ever in a million years consider cutting off your own labia to get rid of the folds and prevent yeast infections? No. So why on earth would you consider cutting your son's genitals to prevent some hypothetical infection? IF he gets one, treat it with the appropriate drugs. But the odds are good he never will.

You also need to learn more about the function of the foreskin and why it's not OK to cut it off. This is a good place to start, and it's based on scientific papers published in the British Journal of Urology:

http://research.cirp.org

And research demonstrating that circumcised men have much less sensitivity than intact men, again published in the British Journal of Urology:

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

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#38 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 06:30 PM
 
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Women pull their clitoral prepuces back and rinse.
Ack! Heck no, we don't! OUCH!

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If you get your boy in the habit of pulling back as far as if will go and rinsing early when he can do it himself (you never need to do it) on you will never have any problem and neither will he.
And don't forget that it is likely that a boy will NOT be able to retract his foreskin until he's older -- the average age is 11, I think? There's no need to do anything at all except sitting in a bath now and then. No retraction, nothing to clean under, nothing to "inspect".

Truthfully, I think that some posters are waaaayyy to worried about children's genitals. They're pretty much care free, in my experience.
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#39 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 06:36 PM
 
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I've not found ANY info that supports the statement that women get circumcised often due to recurrent infections. I'm not sure where you found that.
Here's a link which lists the "benefits" of female circ. Do some of these sound familiar?

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/45528

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The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.


It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.
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#40 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 06:42 PM
 
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Sorry for the serial posting, but I just wanted to post one more thing...

Mana Mamma, you mentioned you're the mom of a brand new baby boy, right? I'm assuming that you are not retracting his foreskin to clean under it? You've left it adhered to the glans and you're just wiping the outside like a finger?

That's quite likely all that's necessary for your son to do himself until his foreskin separates from the glans on its own -- usually sometime before puberty. Until then, forcing it back to clean under it would be like ripping off a fingernail to clean under it.

Just making sure that you weren't setting your son up for a cycle of retraction, which can cause tears and scarring, and then possible infections which wouldn't have occurred without the forced retraction -- and for which a doctor might way will necessitate a circumcision. We've seen that described all too often on this board.
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#41 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 10:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased.
So like others have said with regard to routine infant circumcision, there are no pros. There are some circumstances where for therapeutic reasons men may need to be circumcised but this does not imply a good reason to circumcise a boy or all boys. However, part of the reason we are here is to help dispel the many folk myths surrounding circumcision, the hygiene is an example.

Since you've asked about hygiene, we can start by providing you the a link to a few resources regarding hygiene and care of intact boys. You might be interested to check out the CIRP library, perhaps the largest repository of academic literature on circumcision organized for easy research. Hygiene can be found here here. You could also check out the AAP care info available here. The bottom line is this:
  1. Intact boys are no more or less dirty than circumcised boys.
  2. In infancy all you need to do as a parent is "clean what you see". Don't retract him for any reason it is not necessary.
  3. After infancy the boy doesn't need to do anything special, just wiping the outside is fine.
  4. As he becomes a pre-teen/teen he should retract the foreskin in the shower. It takes about 5 seconds, it takes longer for us to wash our hair.

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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....
One thing that I want to make very clear. It is not our intention to make those who have been circumcised feel bad about this. I suspect that most people who were circumcised had no choice in the matter how else are they going to feel? As far as they know there is little they could do about it anyway, they never had a choice. Plus don't discount social influences, see here how this works both ways. It might be the two adults you know had legitimate medical problems, but if they were in the US I would give odds that there was a less invasive way to treat their problem. Even assuming that there was not, it doesn't make a good case for circumcising boys this is an example the fallacy of universality of my experience (As for me, so for the universe).

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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?
I don't like to march down this road but since we are finding ourself here, yes. And there have been some benefits found, its just that as a society (for girls at least) we have rightly decided that no matter what, circumcision is not appropriate for little girls. We believe that boys deserve the same respect for their bodies as girls.

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Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
I suppose that might be me. If so you're welcome. I am happy to discuss this with you as long as you need at whatever depth you desire.

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I also want to add that I am not saying my boy won't have good hygeine because he's a boy. It is actually my experience with my 8 year old daughter, who is horrible at it unless we step in that is making me wonder about the hygeine issue. I do not want to have to inspect my son's private area the way I have to inspect my daughter's teeth. The smell of her pants is horrible but her "forgetting" to put on underwear insures adequate airflow to the area. This (airflow) is where I see a pro for being circumsised.
Hmm, well you don't have to inspect a boys private parts to make sure he is clean. I've never had a problem with oder even when I've gone days without showers. So as long as he is dropped in the bath once in a while I don't see what problem you could have.

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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I'm not making any arguments FOR circumsicion.....I'm looking for info beyond "my personal opinion". Quite frankly, I do not think the issue (at least for me) is about appearances. I'm sure it is for others but I'm only concerned with my son at this point and not other people's kids.
I hope what has been provided will convince you that circumcision is entirely unnecessary. If you need something more, or have further more specific questions please ask.

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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I came to this forum because the data behind "Circumsicion lowers risk of HIV" is clearly not sound and the idea is rediculous. I'm looking for data on bacterial and yeast type of infections and some real life experience like....can you smell your boys due to lack of care or do they take the cleaning seriously? I'm sure there is a variety of experiences here.
I've never had an infection of any kind and even the times I've gone without showers I've never had an odor problem in that area. That has been my experience.

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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
.....I would really like to thank the men who have spoken up here. I have gotten some good input from you guys about it from the adult male perpective. So far, I've only been thinking from a Mom's perspective and it's good to widen my view.
You're welcome. I hope you'll read this info very closely, ask more questions we'll try and provide you with the straight answers. And since it seems your son is already here, check out the intact care info. If you are trying to retract to clean or something like that you need to know that isn't necessary and can hurt him. I hope this helps.
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#42 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 11:24 PM
 
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One thing I've known to be true with myself (as a female)...

my tendency to get yeast /infection etc has a lot more to do with "other" factors such as diet, exercise, coffee intact, overall immune health, probiotic intake, digestion health...

Based on my girlfriends and my own experience with in tact men.... one smelled (he just plain made my nose quiver if he was in the same room... clearly not someone i dated) and the others.. normal. My girlfriend of course circ'd her son based on that one experience and i just had to shake my head because he always had a weird smell period. (I Know.. not nice.. but so true).

The only statistic I've seen has shown a small but statistically significant increase in urinary tract infections (though much lower than the average female) in intact men. Having dealt with the care of my "intact" father-in-law (knowledge provided by my husband)... he struggled with significant amount of urinary tract infections towards the end of his life when his diabetes was raging out of control. Basically he had 0 until the age of 60.... then rapidly increased as the diabetes got worse...
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#43 of 50 Old 07-10-2008, 01:23 AM
 
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It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...08429/abstract

Here you go, mama. "A study done in 2007 found that circumcision removes the most sensitive part of a man's penis. Sorrells and others enlisted 159 men from the San Francisco Bay area, 91 of them circumcised, and conducted touch-sensitivity tests, using instruments that press with calibrated hairs, on 11 or 17 different places on their penises. The men could not see where they were being touched."

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Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
That might have been me, if it was, you are welcome. I'm not necessarily against circumcision in general, I am against infant circumcision. If adult men decide to have it done, that's their informed decision to make.
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#44 of 50 Old 07-10-2008, 08:32 AM
 
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The only statistic I've seen has shown a small but statistically significant increase in urinary tract infections (though much lower than the average female) in intact men. Having dealt with the care of my "intact" father-in-law (knowledge provided by my husband)... he struggled with significant amount of urinary tract infections towards the end of his life when his diabetes was raging out of control. Basically he had 0 until the age of 60.... then rapidly increased as the diabetes got worse...
To be clear, the study on UTIs showed an increase in UTIs only within the first year of life -- but there are numerous study flaws with this study, and it shouldn't be taken as gospel.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

On diabetes, the problem is the diabetes and the out of control sugar, not the foreskin. Diabetics are far more likely than healthy people to get gangrene of the foot and suffer toe amputations, but that's obviously no reason to cut off a baby's toes. I realize the analogy seems extreme -- but it is accurate, as it is just as extreme to cut off a healthy foreskin from a baby "just in case" he gets diabetes and UTIs 60 years later.

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#45 of 50 Old 07-10-2008, 09:28 AM
 
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....And when I feel funky, like when an infection might be brewing down there ...I do increase the airflow by not wearing any underwear. Wearing it will bring it on in those times.

I don't really understand how you can equate going without underwear and circumcision. Men can go without underwear, too (they can also retract their foreskins, if they so desire). Would you prefer that your parents had decided to cut off a piece of your genitals so you would have that "airflow" in the first place? Would you consider doing so to your daughter? Certainly without labia, we ladies would have a lot more airflow down there, and cleaning would be easier. We could probably still enjoy sex, too. And yet, in our culture we can see why this would be a violation of a girl's rights - why should boys be treated differently?

I think the problem with a lot of people's thinking on circumcision (listing pros and cons, seeing it as one parent getting their way or the other, etc.) has to do with the fact that, in the US, a lot of people seem to think of the foreskin as if it comes with a dotted line around the base which says "cut here", or some such thing. It's seen as an "option", rather than a normal body part like any other. How many other healthy, normal body parts do parents consider removing from their children at birth? There are plenty we could live without, and it stands to reason that a part that is removed will never get sick. Somehow we're able to understand how absurd that sort of thinking is in all cases except circumcision.
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#46 of 50 Old 07-10-2008, 01:29 PM
 
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Ack! Heck no, we don't! OUCH!
I do, I get smegma stuck under there and it doesnt hurt me at all....

Anywho-as I said before, my dh is circ'd. He will smell nasty if he doesnt shower and clean down there at least every other day. I dont know how often my brother in laws wash, but they dont smell funky (intact). And of course, my 8 year old is intact and I have yet to smell anything wierd or see smegma. Most boys arnt even retractable until they are quite a bit older and I assure you, cleaning an intact penis is MUCH easier than a circ'd penis when they are small. I know this from my friends sons; poo gets stuck in the folds of the remaining foreskin (which is seperated to do the circ) and they have had several infections due to this already. Its like cleaning girlie parts-with all the extra folds and stuff-but worse. My intact son never got poo in any part of his foreskin, its fused to the glans so nothing can get in. It makes it really easy to clean.

As to the adults you know who were circ'd as adults for medical reasons (which again-I very highly doubt it was needed sadly), they may be happy as is, but they also felt like they had no choice. I doubt they would've decided to do it on their own. The older guy that I know who was circ'd at 16 doesnt believe me that it wasnt necessary and he is also very pro RIC. He also shakes when he talks about what was done to him. Because of the pain he remembers, he feels like all babies should be circ'd, esp since he refuses to believe that his circ wasnt necessary (he has even had a urologist tell him it wasnt and he still refuses to believe it). Otoh, the other guy (who was 8 when he was circ'd) is anti RIC and while he doesnt mind his penile status today, he also didnt want to have it done to begin with and doesnt see his being circ'd as a reason to circ all babies. Thats just...silly.

I also agree that air flow is a very silly reason to circ. Make him wear boxers and lose pants, there ya go, more air flow. Seriously, girls have a lot more folds and wear tight fitting underwear and they manage to live. Taking a bath does amazing things. Again, my 8 year old has never smelled-well, except like dirt after playing outside-and I didnt have to alter his penis for it.

The simple fact is, if you were in almost any other part of the world, including the UK, you wouldnt even concider any pros. Its something that has been so engrained into US culture that its hard to ignore the constantly changing pros. The pros are created by other circumcised males who refuse to admit they had this done to them for no reason. It is a violation of human rights, simple as that. If the people in Europe arnt dropping dead from being left intact, I dont think we will either. And think about this-if you were born and raised in another culture, you might very well think that female circumcision had all these same benefits and be weighing the pros and cons of having your daughters circ'd. Does that seem crazy? Well, thats how Europeans view us.

Cari-mama to Eriq, Lile, Paikea, Kaidyn, and Mieke is here!! 2/9/10
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#47 of 50 Old 07-10-2008, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by l_olive
Ack! Heck no, we don't! OUCH!

I do, I get smegma stuck under there and it doesnt hurt me at all....


I don't. It gets clean in the bath anyway without being messed with.

FTR, my SO is intact and perfectly clean - as was one of my boyfriends in college. I have encountered circumcised men who were smelly, though.

Re: UTIs, I had 3 within the last year alone (side effects of the birth control I was using, I think). One escalated to a kidney infection, which was quite painful. Would I have part of my genitals cut off if it would reduce the risk? NO WAY. I doubt very many women would consider that for a second. Likewise, if the "benefits" of circumcision are worth it, why aren't adult European men eager to get circumcised?

The simple fact is, if you were in almost any other part of the world, including the UK, you wouldnt even concider any pros. Its something that has been so engrained into US culture that its hard to ignore the constantly changing pros. The pros are created by other circumcised males who refuse to admit they had this done to them for no reason.
:
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#48 of 50 Old 07-10-2008, 09:02 PM
 
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On diabetes, the problem is the diabetes and the out of control sugar, not the foreskin. Diabetics are far more likely than healthy people to get gangrene of the foot and suffer toe amputations, but that's obviously no reason to cut off a baby's toes. I realize the analogy seems extreme -- but it is accurate, as it is just as extreme to cut off a healthy foreskin from a baby "just in case" he gets diabetes and UTIs 60 years later. Quirky


Absolutely the above.... i mean like my father in law really should have stopped sneaking all the snacks to prevent the uti's vs. circumcision In this case, he did neither.

My main point really is that most of these types of infections really can and should be controlled via lifestyle changes/root cause understanding/listening to the body etc.
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#49 of 50 Old 07-11-2008, 07:27 AM
 
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MommieTx, aside from the fact that the texas study (and countless others snce perhaps) has proved the abstainence only education simply does not work - it is also likely to result in people using less protection when they do have sex - thus making people more, not less, likely to contract and STI.
Abstainance until marriage - and lets be honest the trend here and in most of the EU is for people to marry later, sometimes in their 30's, while it might be right for you, and I respct that, is simply not tenable for the population at large and relies on the presumption that everything is perfect in the world. It would be nice if this were that case but it is not.
It is true that condoms do not prevent 100% of STI's - which is why if one is not with a partner which one trusts, thed testing and detection (and treatment obviously) should take place on a regular basis.
However, as HIV is transmitted in seminal fluid (among other things) - condoms prevent ones partner having contact with seminal fluid, which is why they are important in HIV prevention.
I do however believe in monogamy in long term committed life-partnerships, including marriage obviously.
But bear in mind that marriage may not always be legally permitted for some people. Divorce is not legal in every part of the world (only became legal here in the 90's!!!) nor is same sex marriage.

That said, all this talk of circumcision preventing HIV (or anything else) makes me SO SO ANGRY. I'm sure ripping off my right arm would prevent me never getting a compound fractureand induced arthritis in it but no-one in their right mind would suggest that it be done in favour of common sense safety advice - such as not jumping off the tops of mountains without a parachute or not jumping from the top of a building before making sure the bugee cord is secure!
Even if routine non-medcially warranted circumcision did have a role in preventing HIV
To me it is almost akin to advising all women to have, say, radical mastectomies to prevent breast cancer when the logical medical approach to to get tested for the genetic markers if there is a genetic history, breastfeed if you can, perform self examination and have the requisite medical testing and treatment.
Just as with HIV, the logical thing to do is to inform yourself, have a good knowledge and trusting relationship with your partner, use condoms, get tested and have them get tested too.

The most successful program in subsaharan Africa regarding pevention of the transmission of HIV was the ABC Program in Uganda : Abstain until you are ready to have sex, Be faithful in your relationships and use Condoms.

I speak from the standpoint of someone living in a country where granted we make a lot of mess ups and may be retrograde in many ways but surgery, including the surgical removal (amputation) of a foreskin, is only performed on children where is it medically neccessary.
When you think about it, non-medically neccessary surgery is by its nature cosmetic surgery. This is something we do not, under medical ethics guidelines at the very least, perform on children.
If an adult male wants to get circumcision this is an entirely different matter and once he is 18 he is over the age of consent - as with piercings or tatoos.
It is interesting how the removal of female external genetalia is described, quite rightly as mutilation but when it it done to a male, some seem to prefer the euphemism of circumcision.

With regard to basic genital hygene, there is a perfect solution for that since time began - it is called water. In the last couple of centuries, it can be combined with the invention of soap to make it more effective. If this seems sarcastic, I'm sorry but the hygene excuse really does not wash (no pun intended) with me. Even in the last 30 years or so, intimate hygene wipes have been invented. On long camping and hiking trips my beloved has been known to take mine!
Mana Mama, I could echo your statement - but about men. I've never heard of an adult man who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure (circumcision) done. I have checked with my mother, my beloved, five female friends and two male friends and guess what? They've never heard of an adult man who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done either.
However, I know of one woman (consenting adult woman) who had genital surgery to reduce her labia following several births, as they had become distended, venous and extremely uncomfortable. Would her mother have considered having this suegery performed on her (even if it were remotely possible) as a baby to reduce the statistically tiny chance that she would need it as an adult. Most certainly not.

The reasons Quirky cites for the introduction of MGM (circumcision for non-medical reasons) is 100% correct and similar to the reason for FGM - to control sexuality, elimate masturbation (which of course it doesn't) and reduce sexual pleasure.

Originally Posted by Dave2GA
Women pull their clitoral prepuces back and rinse.

l_olive "Ack! Heck no, we don't! OUCH!"
- Umm, yes I do. It's not painful at all for me. Perhaps I unusual.

The attempted justifications from the link you provided ( we all know they are not in fact benefits) on FGM were a) Utterly horrific b) entirely false and c) would seem to be similar to justifications people attempt to provide for routine non-medical infant circumcision.

DocsNemesis, I am a bit puzzled by your friends attitude who was circ'ed at 16, "He also shakes when he talks about what was done to him. Because of the pain he remembers, he feels like all babies should be circ'd".
So because he was truamatized and in pain for what was considered medical neccessity, with an understanding of why it as done. He beleives this trauma should be visited on all infants regardless of medical neccessity and without them having any understanding of the situation. THAT BEGGARS BELIEF!.
However, just to note there is NO MEDICAL REASON for anyone to be in pain following any medical procedure or surgery - NONE. Period. If correct aneasthetic is used and proper analgesic follow-up care is provided the patient will not be in pain. A patient left with post operative pain IS MEDICAL NEGLECT, pure and simple. This is most important in infants of course who cannot explain, understand or rate their pain. Heck my father had open heart surgery and while his chest as sore afterwards and he was weak, he was not in pain.
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#50 of 50 Old 07-11-2008, 03:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommieTX View Post
You know what? HIV would not have to be a problem if people would learn to have self control, self respect, and respect for their future family and spouse by a simple thing called ABSTAINENCE. And then monogamy AFTER marriage. The cure for HIV is to SAVE SEX until marriage. This is the only way. Free sex is not free, hence all of these STD's that are destroying lives. Condoms do not prevent STD's as much as you would want to believe it. They do not cover all of the body parts that come in contact during sex. If condoms are effective against pregnancy only 3 out of 4 times, and we all know that fertilization can happen only a few days out of the month, then why would anyone think that condoms prevent an STD that can be contracted 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Not to mention that sperm are huge compared to a virus. And I don't buy it that people are going to do it anyway because they just can't help themselves. Come on people. We are higher thinking human beings who must take responsibility for their actions. We need to teach our children and young adults to keep their freaking pants on and to stay out of the bedroom and the back seat of a car. The best thing that you can wear to proctect yourself IS YOUR PANTS!
100% agreed. But, this way of life doesn't seem to be very popular anymore. I didn't go about things perfectly 'cause I : with my Dh before we were married... but we were never with anyone else. And we had no worries of stds at all! And also we were planning to marry anyway...so ..the pants came off!!! Oops. LOL
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