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Old 12-21-2008, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I met this nurse and we had some words. She said she want to see links backed up with studies. I am probably wasting my time but i feel so challenged as a mother right now.

Me(33), Mama to a crazy DD (6), Wife to a wonderful mountain man(32) BF my babe for 2 years
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Old 12-21-2008, 03:39 PM
 
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Can you avoid her? I had a friend who is a nurse. My entire pregnancy, she went on and on that I should get an ultrasound. I continuously expressed my concern about it and she told me studies proved its safety long ago. Funny that no such studies exist. But no matter what I said to her, she knew better because she was told it and the medical community doesn't lie. Now I know trying to prove something to someone with an obvious bias is a monumental waste of time.
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Old 12-21-2008, 03:43 PM
 
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Why would you feel challenged as a mother? It's okay to disagree with a medical professional, even if they seem to think they're infallible.

There are a ton of great links in the archives. Start with this post and work your way through disease by disease.

It's likely you're wasting your time, but you never know--you could plant a seed. If you're up to the challenge it might be worthwhile. Good luck!

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When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. --George Bernard Shaw

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Old 12-21-2008, 05:15 PM
 
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You never know. Many nurses (this one included) are pretty open minded and don't completely endorse everything the medical establishment says.
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:32 PM
 
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I would just tell her you have done the research if she hasn't its not your responsibility to do it for her. You spent time and energy to back up your beliefs. She can do the same. I do have a CYA folder but for people like that I tell them to go look for themselves.

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Old 12-21-2008, 06:14 PM
 
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What in particular does she want studies about? Vaccines? Which one in paticular? There are sooooooooooooo many medical journal acticles you could refer to. Persopnally I think you's be wasting your breath...Been there done that. If you feel you really need to, Id ask her to be more specific.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 12-21-2008, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You are right it is a waste of my time. She was going on and on. Using her degree to back up everything she said. I tried telling her I spoke with mothers IRL with vaccine damaged children and she said its typical for parents to want to blame something. I just feel like my parenting has been attacked. Its my fault for being open. I just dont want to treat it like a dirty secret. If other moms can talk openly about vaxing their kids then why cant i be open too. I actually bawled over it today. I used to be an analytical chemist but yesterday i felt like i was just a housewife. (my DH got mad when i used the phrase "just a housewife" he said i do a lot and i was selling myself short)

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Old 12-21-2008, 09:49 PM
 
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You are right it is a waste of my time. She was going on and on. Using her degree to back up everything she said. I tried telling her I spoke with mothers IRL with vaccine damaged children and she said its typical for parents to want to blame something.
Yes, how dare parents blame vaccines for causing reactions in their babies?

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I just feel like my parenting has been attacked. Its my fault for being open. I just dont want to treat it like a dirty secret. If other moms can talk openly about vaxing their kids then why cant i be open too. I actually bawled over it today. I used to be an analytical chemist but yesterday i felt like i was just a housewife. (my DH got mad when i used the phrase "just a housewife" he said i do a lot and i was selling myself short)
, mama. I agree that you should be allowed to talk openly about it--and by all means, keep doing so if you want!--but you have to be prepared to get attacked for having beliefs that go against the mainstream. There is so much pro-vax propaganda out there...if you're open about not vaxing, you will find yourself getting attacked. It's just how it is. But take heart--our numbers are growing.

And if it makes you feel any better, imagine being a healthcare provider who has injected literally thousands of babies with vaccines over the years. Would you be eager to entertain the idea that you had potentially caused untold harm to those children? No way! You'd defend vaccines until you were blue in the face. To admit the enormity of what you'd done would be emotionally devastating. How could you live with yourself? Arguing with most HCP's about vaccines is a COMPLETE waste of time, unfortunately.

Also, your DH is great. I agree that there's no such thing as "just a housewife". You're an intelligent, educated, thinking woman who is entitled to an opinion just like everyone else. Being a housewife is a privilege IMO, not something to be ashamed of.

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When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. --George Bernard Shaw

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Old 12-21-2008, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Peainthepod.

I wish all of our families could be in the same community. Life would be easier.

Me(33), Mama to a crazy DD (6), Wife to a wonderful mountain man(32) BF my babe for 2 years
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:23 PM
 
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I wish all of our families could be in the same community. Life would be easier.
That would be awesome! ::
I would know where to find chicken pox and I could walk down the street nursing DD in the sling without neighborhood boys going 'Ew gross!! What are you doing to your daughter sicko?!'

Mama to Belly(5), homesteading in the desert with our chickens and sheep. Fish nerd, really into my reef tank. Baby due Sep 3rd!

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah one day when we are all sick of this $hit we will buy a plot of land and set up a crunchy town.

In my dreams.

Me(33), Mama to a crazy DD (6), Wife to a wonderful mountain man(32) BF my babe for 2 years
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:45 AM
 
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Does this nurse work in an office you are going to be frequenting? Because if so- you should NOT feel that your parenting abilities are up to her to scrutinize(sp). You are the momma- and you are very smart. You made a decision for YOUR child- and if this nurse cannot respect that tell the doc that you refuse to see this nurse, and if that's not an option tell this nurse that her comments are not welcome.

Married to Michael and Mother of Jake 9, Jillianne 7, Jensen 5, Jacen 4. I've got severe osteoporosis, a fractured hip and chronic pain-so please be patient with me! Pagan,Crocheter,Reader,Homeschooler- that's me in a nutshell.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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She was actually DH's friends new GF. SHe saw on a blog of mine that i dont vax and inquired about it. I know she means well but there i just felt like she didnt see me as an educated person.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:59 AM
 
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Oh Lydia, I am so sorry that you are feeling like this. My heart goes out to you and I feel like the same lightning strike has hit us: I am in IL and this afternoon my husband tells that he was listening to NPR today and their discussion on vax. Our daughter will be 2 in Feb and is not. I originally wanted to delay them until 2, but now that I have read more and more about them, I do not want to do them at all.

Well, our daughter got strep pneumonia at 11 mos and had to be hosp and have surgery. The ICU drs told me that the Pneumococcal vax would have helped her. Yada, yada, it didn't change my mind despite the home health care and stay in the ICU.

so...hubby tells me that he appreciates my concern over the vax issue but that there's no way to reconcile this between us (since he wants them and I don't). he brought up the Sears book I made him read and how now that he has, I want him to discredit what a med prof has to say (if it's pro-vax).

the kicker...he tells me this and says that he doesn't know how this isn't going to come across as provocative: that if Anna gets sick like last year, then "the blood is on my hands and he prob won't be able to forgive me." But also that if she's vaxed and has a reaction I will most likely want to divorce him for it. Ugh............my stomach has been in knots since this 'episode' and I am feeling very depressed and suicidal (almost). I am just SO tired of fighting an uphill battle, very similar to what Lydia experienced. I am not a dr but a hs language teacher, but I also have a gut instinct that tells me that vax are a wrong move.

ugh......thanks for listening and my thoughts are with all of those who are experiencing this conflict....
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:14 AM
 
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...I continuously expressed my concern about it and she told me studies proved its safety long ago. Funny that no such studies exist.... .
The studies that express concern about the safety of ultrasound are over thirty years old and one of them were done at Oxford University by Dr. Alice Stewart. The reason the medical community still uses ultrasound is because they have no current replacement. CVS looked like it could be the replacement in the 1980s, but the needle itself is guided by ultrasound. Amniocentisis utilized ultrasound. The doppler is continuous wave ultrasound; the external monitor used during labor is intermittent wave ultrasound. Ultrasound itself replaced prenatal x-ray pelvimetry.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

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Old 12-22-2008, 02:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Lisa I am sorry about your DH. I know that awful feeling you must be feeling. I am still exhausted from my episode today.

Has he watched any films with you? Vaccine Nation on google video is a good one to watch together. I watched it with my DH.

There is no vax for strep yet, and the reason why strep is getting more agressive is because we started vaxing for pnemonococcal and meningococcal bacteria. When you restrict one thing another just moves right in.

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Old 12-22-2008, 02:37 AM
 
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I have an idea of how you feel, LisaJP. My DH doesn't really agree with me on this either. We really don't agree on anything of the medical nature, honestly. First it was, 'My other kids did fine on formula.' Then it was, 'My other kids used disposables and were fine.' And then, the worst one of all, 'I'm vaccinated, my brothers are, my other kids are. We're all fine.' I feel like I have to defend every single decision I make. So far, he's allowed it, but in the back of mind, I wonder if someday he won't suddenly feel the urge to exercise his difference of opinion.

Luckily, after the pediatrician was hostile towards me, my DH didn't fight with me about the issue anymore. I know it's pushed him a little closer to the fence. It would just be a lot easier if he crossed it.

If it makes you feel better, my unvaccinated cousins had the childhood diseases when we were growing up and they did just fine.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:42 AM
 
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The studies that express concern about the safety of ultrasound are over thirty years old...
There are more recent studies, some less than 10 years old.
http://www.aims.org.uk/
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:46 AM
 
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I have an idea of how you feel, LisaJP. My DH doesn't really agree with me on this either. We really don't agree on anything of the medical nature, honestly. First it was, 'My other kids did fine on formula.' Then it was, 'My other kids used disposables and were fine.' And then, the worst one of all, 'I'm vaccinated, my brothers are, my other kids are. We're all fine.' I feel like I have to defend every single decision I make. So far, he's allowed it, but in the back of mind, I wonder if someday he won't suddenly feel the urge to exercise his difference of opinion.
Breast milk is the default. Unvaccinated is the default. Uncircumcised is the default. So many AP parenting decisions are based on going with Nature's default instead of tampering and interfering with normal childhood and mammalian development.

If your DH wants to deviate from the default, the impetus is on him to prove why you should. You don't have to justify NOT tampering with your child. In other words, until he brings you credible, non-biased research that proves vaccines are safe, he doesn't get a say. (Hint: no such research exists.)

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When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. --George Bernard Shaw

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Old 12-22-2008, 03:04 AM
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Yeah one day when we are all sick of this $hit we will buy a plot of land and set up a crunchy town.

In my dreams.
Three cheers for crunchy town!!!:
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:22 AM
 
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Thanks, Lydia and everyone, for the encouragement. It IS very hard to do the natural thing, and you know, dh and I don't see eye to eye on anything medical either.

I take dd to a ped chiropractor, a natural dr who does live blood cell analysis, a homeopath, PLUS a homeopathic and holistic MD!! And I really hate his demeanor and attitude when he does go to the appts with us: he's quiet and unfriendly and it really irks me.

Thanks for the video recommendations. When we saw the homeopathic MD in July and Bill was getting the car, he advised me to keep giving him reading material. Of course this dr was going to make the decision for me, but he appreciated my position.

so when you say that your dh is getting closer to the fence, do you mean that he's getting closer to being against them or undecided? Fortunately I have not taken dh with me to the ped appts because we were all set to get shots on Good Friday and Anna got a cold, so I cancelled. Fortunately this ped will take a backseat and let me do what I want, but she did have me initial the chart at her 18 mo appt saying I declined vax.

thanks for your input!
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:33 AM
 
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Aaah, this sounds like a classic situation where you bust out the "pass the bean dip" quote. Meaning...change the subject.

This nurse sounds like she was on an ego trip. She wasn't trying to educate you, she was trying to bolster her own self-image by making you out to be stupid/uneducated.

Her mistake, and you can either let her off the hook easy by just changing the subject, or you could look her in the eye and say "thanks for your input, we've worked very closely with our doctor to make informed decisions for our child." How can she trump that, without making herself look like a butt?
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:19 AM
 
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Closer to being undecided. If he agrees with me by now, he certainly hasn't said. He really believes in doctors. Almost every time one has upset me, my DH tries to find something to say in their defense. Irritating things like, 'Maybe he didn't know better.' If our lives weren't in their hands at times, maybe I could find comfort in that, but I don't.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:48 AM
 
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you know, my dh is rather similar: one time he said something like, well isn't questioning them bad? because the drs are the experts, not us, and he equated it to our roles as teachers and our students' parents trying to tell us how to do our job. We are both HS teachers, btw. Interesting huh? Can you see why my dh is giving me an ulcer??!! Ugh!! But I am also stubborn and I totally disagree with his rationale, because the dr would prob give 2 cents if it came right down to dxing a vaccine injury. I saw how her demeanor changed when we decided we were going to vax in April and I expressed getting all caught "up" at once; she didn't even flinch when she said there's no concern in getting more than one vax. I didn't like that at all for some reason. It was like the battle was won and she didn't care anymore. But..we didn't do them anyway. For now. Pray for me when the spring rolls around!
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:16 AM
 
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You are right it is a waste of my time. She was going on and on. Using her degree to back up everything she said.
I don't know if it's the same in Canada, but you might let her know that, at least in America, part of the cost of each vaccine goes to a fund to pay for vaccine reactions that they know happen. Why would they have a place to report vaccine reactions to, if they didn't happen?

Even listening to advertisements on TV for vaccines, like all drugs, is mind-boggling. I just learned today that some meningococcal (spelling?) vaccine can cause Guilliam Barre Syndrome! Woohoo, sounds most excellent, right?

But if you went up and said to a random nurse (or my stepmom, a NICU nurse) and said "no I won't have that vaccines b/c it can cause G-B", or if you said "my kid got G-B after this vaccine", they'd think you were nuts, EVEN THOUGH it says it RIGHT IN THE TV ADS.


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you know, my dh is rather similar: one time he said something like, well isn't questioning them bad? because the drs are the experts, not us, and he equated it to our roles as teachers and our students' parents trying to tell us how to do our job. We are both HS teachers, btw.
If one day you spelled something wrong, or got a date in history wrong, or did a math problem wrong...both of you would WANT a student to call you on it, right? I hope so! So that doesn't really continue on as a good argument from him, LOL.

And all he needs to do is look at the FDA and all the changes they make over the years. Think of hormone therapy...first it was untried, then it was a miracle, but now they are finding all sorts of awful things about it. Or asthma drugs, that's a good one right now...propellant problems and changes aside, a few have just been dropped from the list of things that can be used for asthma, b/c they have a pesky problem of killing people with even worse asthma attacks. If the doctors didn't get reports about it, if they didn't look into it, they wouldnl't take those drugs away for that purpose (they are still allowed for other lung ailments).

Perhaps you could print out a list of ingredients in vaccines. EAch and every one of them. Take out the reason for the injection, take out the "active" ingredient...see if they would inject those things for no reason, or any OTHER reason. Say there's a homeopathic medicine in the syringe along with those other ingredients...would they want that? (wait, that might not work, since some homeopathics come from really nasty places...don't look up oscillococcinum unless you're brave, LOL, and that's mainly just "ew" for vegetarians like me)

I rarely get into discussion about vaxes in real life (made sure the dude I'd just met was cool with no-vaxes on our second date and that went fine, he's my hubby...but then got into a HUGE argument with a bridesmaid on my bachelorette weekend that did NOT go well), but when I do I ignore the hot-button reaction stuff (autism, etc...not that I don't believe that it happens post-vaccine, I DO, it's just they've already heard the naysayers on the news, etc). I just talk about the immune system and how it works, and how I don't want to mess with it, and leave it at that. I also tell them how to help a kid through diphtheria (family knowledge from my great grandfather getting the one out of 7 children that got it through it) and then talk about how family lore is that my grandmother's first child died at 6 of polio, but then describe how she was ordered to the hospital b/c she was sick, then was left in a hallway, alone, for about a day...no one ever checked to see if it was indeed polio, but it was during the "epidemic" and she died, and that was it.

And on top of that, the wife of the founder of the chiro school I attended was a nurse way back when. She was a new nurse when the definition of polio *was changed*, they had to be re-taught what polio was. This was shortly AFTER the vaccine came out...polio before was x degree for y days, and some other small symptoms (paralytic was not the only way polio presented). After the vaccine came out, it was a MUCH higher fever for about 2 more days than before, and the symptoms were much "bigger". So OF COURSE polio incidence went down after the vaccine, because they changed the definition of it. She was a woman who was a bit odd but I greatly admired her knowledge, and that was so so so cool to know someone who was working as a nurse at that time, and remembered the changes that happened in the post-polio vaccine world.



I hope some of my ramblings help someone.

While I was in chiro school I knew a fellow student whose wife left him and dropped out of chiro school. Turned out she never really believed in it all, and she went back to some sort of medical oriented schooling when she left him. She took their kids, and ended up getting them ALL of their vaccines on ONE appointment. They were around 10 and 8. That was a whole bunch of vaccines. The next time I saw them, while they visited their dad, was shortly after...those two healthy, vital kids had lost hair, lost weight, gotten pasty and drawn looking. They looked sick and ill and it was awful. The hair thing was the worst for me.

After seeing that happen and hearing their dad rage and cry about what his ex-wife did to their kids, I feel so much empathy for people whose sig others aren't as gung ho as they are about it. And so I hope my ramblings might help some sig others to hear things that maybe they haven't heard before (by the way, with diphtheria, according to the family lore, a membrane grows across the throat, so you have to stay up with the ill person, and when their breathing gets bad, you sweep the membranes away with your finger...that's how my great grandfather helped his child through (and remember that one out of seven kids in the household got it, it didn't sweep through the household at all)), so the fear of sig others doing scary things can be diminished.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:47 PM
 
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sorry you had such a bad experience. If I were you, I would provide references, although this nurse may be dead set in her teachings, there is a possibility that she may learn new things. I know sometimes we all feel 'just like a housewife', but the truth is, alot of people that question vaccines are educated people. I don't remember where the exact reference is, but this is paraphrase, those parents that question vaccinating their children are college educated mothers. I for one am just a housewife, who also happens to have BA degree! So just give here a few resources to chew on, possibly book references, rather than just internet sites. Hey that's how it was in college, we were only allowed a certain amount of internet references, and only those from credible sources.

Good luck and don't let her words get to you too badly.

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Old 12-22-2008, 06:29 PM
 
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Yeah one day when we are all sick of this $hit we will buy a plot of land and set up a crunchy town.

In my dreams.

Count me in!!! Im there

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 12-24-2008, 06:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by peainthepod View Post
Breast milk is the default. Unvaccinated is the default. Uncircumcised is the default. So many AP parenting decisions are based on going with Nature's default instead of tampering and interfering with normal childhood and mammalian development.

Well said! Thank you.
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:13 AM
 
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Inside Vaccines is a good place to look:
http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/

However, as others have noted, there haven't been (m)any scientific studies on vaccinated v. unvaccinated populations. I recently read a great article, written by a chemist (I believe) about the difference between epidemiological studies and true double-blind studies, and how there haven't been any double-blind studies with regards to vax. Anyone who says that studies prove *ANYTHING* about vaccination is wrong.

~ Robyn

Mom to Jackson, b. January 2006

and Cassandra, b. October 2011

 

weadopted.gif novaxnocirc.gif

http://chittisterchildren.wordpress.com

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Old 12-28-2008, 01:42 AM
 
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Personally, I wouldn't waste my time. Pro-vaccine medical professionals generally feel so incredibly strongly that you could show them infallible studies and infallible proof and admissions by vaccine manufacturers that they KNOW these vaccines' additives cause autism and they wouldn't budge in their steadfast surety of vaccines' safety. I'm confident the nurse you refer to is in that category because of the way you descibe it. She's just arguing with you, not wanting proof.

I think it works better to recognize and accept that she (and others) have very strong feelings about vaccinating it and "agree that you disagree." I don't see either camp changing the others viewpoint -- esp. when the request for "proof" is made in the midst of a heated argument.
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