The social aspect of not vaccinating - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi there I'm from Norway and we have a four year old that is not vaccinated. I'm pregnant and we plan not to vax this one as well.

The vaccination program in Norway is probably different than in the US, but I guess many of the issues are the same anyway.

The two most common responses I get when I tell people we don't vax is -

“What about the social aspect? What about all those people with immune system deficiencies, old people, and people with cancer, auto immune diseases and pregnant women? Your child will put these people at risk and may even kill them or make them very ill!”

When I get this thrown at me I really don’t know how to respond. I can really sympathize with parents with children that is at high risk of getting seriously or lethally ill if they get some of the diseases we vax against. But still. What do you answer?

And the second most common response – “What if everyone stopped vaccinating? What do you think will happen then?”

I’d love to hear your thoughts and experiences with these statements…
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#2 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 05:52 PM
 
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What I say is that I do not have a responsibility to society to keep them healthy. My sole responsibility is to my son. It is my job to make sure he is healthy and to protect him from harm.

Also, when people throw around the whole "society" card I think (sometimes say) this: Society wants me to vax to protect the herd, the sick, etc - they want me to accept responsibility for their health. However, if my child has a severe vax reaction (horrible reactions have happened, children have died) - then not one person will accept responsibility for the damage done. Not doctors, not CDC, not AAP, not Merck, GSK, not the government, not the society as a whole. And no one will help me with my child. They will write it off and forget about it. So, I am not willing to bring my child as a sacrificial lamb to the altar of big pharma.
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#3 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 05:57 PM
 
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First I have to say that I don't tell people we don't vax cause it's none of their business and I don't want to hear exactly what you are describing! With that said of course I have heard the same stuff and I have come up against these arguements before.
The social aspect arguement I would conuter by pointing out that several of the vaxes DO NOT PREVENT TRANSMISION such as the WC vax (DTaP), there are others, but which ones are escaping me right now. (Perhaps somebody else can chime in here). I also point out that it is documented in the literature that vaxed individuals often still come down with the disease anyway. I would also point out that live vaxes shed and people can get the diease from vaxed individuals that way (cp, rota, MMR).

And I would also point out that when it comes down to it, a person is responsible for the health and well being of their family, not the entire nation. It is too bad that some people are sick and immunocompromised and are at greater risk for disease, but keeping my son healthy is my priority.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#4 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 05:58 PM
 
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I think if we had real health care and not just sick care, NOTHING would happen if we stopped vaccinating. I will not vax my child to protect an unhealthy herd.

And yes what about the people who are immune deficient that have no choice in being exposed to shedding vaccines, like chicken pox, rotavirus, MMR and influenza.

Me(33), Mama to a crazy DD (6), Wife to a wonderful mountain man(32) BF my babe for 2 years.
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#5 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 06:09 PM
 
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I say that my son's life does not belong to society, and that my duty is to protect him from harm, not save the world from mild childhood illnesses.

But this is why we don't mention we don't vax. It's not worth the headache and most people aren't interested in learning more--they just want to argue.

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#6 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 09:08 PM
 
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I don't mention that we don't vax. But... I would say that vax have never been proven to work all that effectively anyway. My sons do not put these immuno compromised people at anymore risk in my opinion than my vaxed nephews. Especially considering the live vax that shed.

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#7 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 09:38 PM
 
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Eh, those people don't know what they're talking about.

The elderly already have natural immunity to most everything we vax for.

The immune suppressed are at much risk, if not MORE from all the kids vaccinated with live viruses walking around. At least if my kid is sick I know to keep them home.

How many vaxers do you know who quarantine their kids for a month after live vaxes?

-Angela
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#8 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 10:36 PM
 
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My daughter has eczema. Coming into close contact with someone who has been recently vaccinated for smallpox could be fatal to her. (This is per CDC, so yeah I think it is serious!) Here they only vax high risk and military people for it, so I am not too worried but... I don't ask them to take responsibility for my child's health (besides staying out of my house!) and I am not going to take responsibility for theirs.

I do however believe in quarantining myself and my children when we are sick. So, no I don't think I am risking anyone else's health by not vaxxing.
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#9 of 31 Old 01-07-2009, 10:49 PM
 
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Not vaccinated does not mean not immune, and vaccinated does not mean immune. Did these parents have titres drawn on their children after they vaccinated them, or did they just ASSume that their kids were immune because they were vaccinated?

For some of the vaccine available diseases, natural immunity is lifelong, as opposed to the waning immunity after vaccination. Do these people constantly have themselves and their children titred and "boosted"? Unless they do (and honestly, I have never heard of anyone doing this), pointing the finger at the unvaccinated is totally hypocritical.
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#10 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 01:18 AM
 
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“What about the social aspect? What about all those people with immune system deficiencies, old people, and people with cancer, auto immune diseases and pregnant women? Your child will put these people at risk and may even kill them or make them very ill!”
B.S. alarm!

I repeat: When my DH was dying from cancer, I was told to keep any recently immunized children away from his physical presence. Unimmunized children were just fine.

The same was true for a friend of mine who had two kidney transplants and was on medication to surpress his immune system. Whenever I brought the children over, he asked if they were recently immunized and I truthfully said, "NO!"

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#11 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for all the answers

I totally agree – my responsibility is my children and my family. But I guess there is a big difference between Norwegians and Americans here, because I cannot use it as an argument in this country. If I say that my responsibility is my child and not anyone else – well, people will see me as egocentric and very short sighted (not that I care, I’m just telling you how it is here). There is an unwritten rule that everyone takes care of everyone. Everyone takes on responsibility for everyone elses health and happiness to some extent. In most cases I think this is a good thing, but it is difficult when it comes to vaccines.

This social responsibility thing I guess comes with our health care system. We practically have free health care for everyone in Norway, and all childrens vaccines are free (and voluntary – at least in theory). Many of our vaccines are safer then many that you have in the US.

BUT they still contain a lot of bad stuff. And the whole idea of vaccinating just sounds wrong to me. So we will continue not vaxing. I don’t feel that I need to defend myself all the time, but sometimes I think it’s interesting to discuss this with people that really listens and wonders why we chose not to vax. It makes me think about our choices and why we made them – it makes me educate myself further about vaccines and the diseases.

About what happens if most people would stop vaccinating – I’ve heard that there is lager areas in the US were many people are not vaxed (I Norway I think over 90- 95% is vaccinated). Anyone live in an area with many other unvaxed people/children? How is it like? Some people in Norway told me that these areas often got outbreaks of diseases and many people got seriously ill or got side effects afterwards. (Like going deaf on one ear after having the measles or brain damage after whooping cough…) But we obviously don’t know… Anyone?
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#12 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 12:19 PM
 
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Many of our vaccines are safer then many that you have in the US.
Where do you get that idea? There are only a small handful of vaccine manufacturers. It's very likely you have exactly the same vaccines.

-Angela
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#13 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 12:22 PM
 
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"Some people in Norway told me that these areas often got outbreaks of diseases and many people got seriously ill or got side effects afterwards."

Every outbreak I have heard of has a large percentage of *vaccinated* individuals who have and are spreading the disease. The last article I read said something to the effect of "49% were unvaccinated kids." Nice spin. That means more than half *were* vaccinated. How did this happen if the vaccines were effective?

I do take these diseases seriously, and yes some of them can have tragic results, but IMO we need to stop relying on ineffective and harmful vaccines to prevent their spread. Better hygiene, clean water, and good nutrition would go a long way. So would staying home when your sick. There has been documentation showing that quarantine is very effective at preventing the spread of certain diseases. I can't remember off the top of my head where this is but it may be in Neil Z. ******'s book.
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#14 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Varga View Post
Thank you for all the answers

This social responsibility thing I guess comes with our health care system. We practically have free health care for everyone in Norway, and all childrens vaccines are free (and voluntary – at least in theory). Many of our vaccines are safer then many that you have in the US.
How do you know this? I've heard this from many non-US posters but haven't seen any proof. There are a finite number of vaccine manufacturer's. I actually looked for someone in Norway a few weeks ago, but everything that looked interesting I couldn't read.

Quote:
BUT they still contain a lot of bad stuff. And the whole idea of vaccinating just sounds wrong to me. So we will continue not vaxing. I don’t feel that I need to defend myself all the time, but sometimes I think it’s interesting to discuss this with people that really listens and wonders why we chose not to vax. It makes me think about our choices and why we made them – it makes me educate myself further about vaccines and the diseases.

About what happens if most people would stop vaccinating – I’ve heard that there is lager areas in the US were many people are not vaxed (I Norway I think over 90- 95% is vaccinated). Anyone live in an area with many other unvaxed people/children? How is it like? Some people in Norway told me that these areas often got outbreaks of diseases and many people got seriously ill or got side effects afterwards. (Like going deaf on one ear after having the measles or brain damage after whooping cough…) But we obviously don’t know… Anyone?
Well, you can easily check the CDC website or call (k, not so easy) to determine the number of reported cases in the US in any year.

Immune compromised? What about the vaccine damaged? What about those who develop incurable chronic immune system diseases from vaccines? Have they ever read the US vaccine injury table? And that table just covers the vaccine damage that is admitted to. The Immune compromised are immune compromised; even if every vaccine worked as advertised they are still at risk from the countless viruses, bacteria and whatever else there is to make people ill. Without vaccination most people would get the typical childhood diseases...and recover. Dr's play roulette with a person's health every time the administer a vaccine; even adults. I know many people online who report declining health after Hep B, persistent debilitating pain after a Tetanus shot and rheumatoid arthritis after a post partum MMR. VADs are treatable, vaccine damage is not. Vaccines do not create health, but they can take it.

Infant's would normally be protected by their mother's immunity for typical childhood illnesses (as most mom's used to have natural immunity) and the general antibodies provided by breastmilk help bolster their immune system against other threats. The elderly likely have their own immunity. Does your government follow the CDC adult schedule of vaccination boosters? Even if they don't you can mention to people that the US does have such a schedule, and wonder why Norway isn't having outbreaks of measles and mumps with so many adults not vaccinated with boosters since their childhood vaccines have worn off.

There is a lot of information in my siggy and Inside Vaccines is also a good place for info.


And here is the fairly recent Switzerland measles outbreak info and that for Gabraltar plus info on DTaP reactions:

Measles "is generally looked upon as one of the most harmless diseases"according to Kurt Elsner, M.D. in 1908

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...619C946997D6CF
__________________________________________________

Here is the information on the Switzerland Measles outbreak:

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ew/2007/070726.asp

483 cases total for November 2006- July 2007.


Quote:
Six percent of the 445 cases for whom a detailed questionnaire had been submitted were vaccinated against measles (18 with one dose and nine with two doses), 87% were unvaccinated, and the vaccination status of the remaining 7% was unknown. There were 43 cases (10%) requiring hospitalization. Among 445 cases for whom information about complications was available, four cases were reported with encephalitis (1%), all among children, 29 cases with pneumonia (7%, median age 10 years), and 31 cases with otitis media [earache](7%). No deaths were reported.
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/edit...8/080221_1.asp
Switzerland Measles Outbreak - From Nov 2006 to Feb 2008:

"1405 cases
1319 cases for which detailed information available**

Hospitalizations** 104 -- 7.9%
Pneumonia** 63 -- 4.8%
Otitis Media (ear aches)** 62 -- 4.7%
Encephalitis** 6 -- 0.5%

The proportion of vaccinated patients has been low for all ages (Figure 4). There were 104 cases (8% of 1,319 cases for whom information about hospitalisation and complications were available) who required hospitalisation. Six cases were reported with encephalitis or suspicion of encephalitis (0.5%), all among children. No deaths have been reported." The average age is eleven.
_________________________________________________
Measles outbreak in Gibraltar, August–October 2008
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...rticleId=19034

____________________________________________


Pediatrics

Quote:
Conclusion: Preliminary design, data collection, and analytic capability of the Vaccine Safety Datalink project has been validated by replication of previous known associations between seizures and DTP and MMR vaccines. The diversity in vaccine administration schedules permits potential disentangling of effects of simultaneous and combined vaccinations. The project provides a model of public health-managed care collaborations in addition to an excellent infrastructure for safety and other studies of vaccines.
____________________________________________

The New England Journal Of Medicine

Quote:
Conclusions: There are significantly elevated risks of febrile seizures after receipt of DTP vaccine or MMR vaccine, but these risks do not appear to be associated with any long-term, adverse consequences.

Pediatrics

Quote:
Conclusion: Preliminary design, data collection, and analytic capability of the Vaccine Safety Datalink project has been validated by replication of previous known associations between seizures and DTP and MMR vaccines. The diversity in vaccine administration schedules permits potential disentangling of effects of simultaneous and combined vaccinations. The project provides a model of public health-managed care collaborations in addition to an excellent infrastructure for safety and other studies of vaccines.

~~~~~~~

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ht=DTaP+scream

The scream is called cry-encephalitis. The cause is infection of the brain from the vaccine virus/bacteria.
When the body is injected with virus/bacteria it can travel to the brain and cause encephalitis.
Encephalitis can be a reaction to any vaccine but the DTaP is notorious for it.

Encephalitis without being vaccinated generally follows an illness.
When it happens due to an illness, the doctor will treat it in the correct way.

But when you call and give the exact same symptoms and the doctor knows the child has just been vaccinated, he will tell you it is a normal reaction to the vaccine and will simply say to give the child some tylenol.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It has been established that pertussis and measles-containing vaccines cause encephalitis. For the purposes of VICP guidelines, onset of encephalitits from pertussis-containing vaccines is 24-48 hours and between day five and fifteen for the MMR, M, MR and R vaccines.


From the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program in the late 80's:

The neurologic signs and symptoms of encephalopathy may be temporary with complete recovery or may result in various degrees of permanent impairment.

Signs and symptoms such as high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanel are compatible with an encephalopathy, but in and of themselves are not conclusive evidence of encephalopathy
. Encephalopathy usually can be documented by slow wave activity on an electroencephalogram.


Today it reads:

The following clinical features alone, or in combination, do not demonstrate an acute encephalopathy or a significant change in either mental status or level of consciousness as described above: Sleepiness, irritability (fussiness), high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanelle. Seizures in themselves are not sufficient to constitute a diagnosis of encephalopathy. In the absence of other evidence of an acute encephalopathy, seizures shall not be viewed as the first symptom or manifestation of the onset of an acute encephalopathy.

FTR, they have put a name to this adverse reaction: Crying Syndrome or Screaming Syndrome.

Now to put things into perspective -- how many parents of the of the signficiant number children who have experienced this type of reaction are told to go to the emergency room in order to do the necessary testing for encephalitis?

In just a ten year period (1991-2001), there were 10,000 reports of unusual crying and screaming syndrome. Just in this period alone. Couple that with the fact that just a tiny amount of vaccine adverse events are even reported . . .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the neurologist concensus from the early 90's :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation

In evaluating side-reactions to the vaccine, the following must be kept in mind: 1. Vaccines are not standardized between manufacturers. 2. For a given manufacturer, vaccines are not standard from one batch to the next. 3. Unless the vaccine is properly prepared and refrigerated, its potency and reactivity varies with shelf life. In fact, the whole question of vaccine detoxification has never been systematically investigated. Listed in order of increasing severity, observed adverse reactions include irritability, persistent, unusually high pitched crying, somnolence, seizures, a shock-like "hypotensive, hyporesponsive" state, and an encephalopathy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It has been established that pertussis and measles-containing vaccines cause encephalitis. For the purposes of VICP guidelines, onset of encephalitits from pertussis-containing vaccines is 24-48 hours and between day five and fifteen for the MMR, M, MR and R vaccines.


___________________________________________

Here are some questions to answer for yourself in deciding not to vax.

1. Name of the disease
2. Description of the disease
3. Length of time from initial infection to end of all symptoms
4. Infectious period
5. Normal symptoms of the disease
6. Known serious consequences of the disease
7. Proportion of persons infected developing serious consequences
8. Transmission route of the disease
9. Prevalence of the disease
10. Treatments of the disease and efficacy of those treatments
11. Relevant research about the disease
12. Name of the vaccine
13. Company that makes the vaccine
14. Contents of the vaccine
14A. The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
15. History of development of the vaccine
16. Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
17. Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
18. Relevant research into the vaccine
19. How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
20.What is the vaccine meant to do? (Many vaccines are not meant to prevent infection or transmission).
21.Number of cases reported each year.
22.Number of deaths reported each year from the vaccine and natural disease.

Here are some sources to help you out:

Inside Vaccines

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html (download the current issue)
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...k-chapters.htm
http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40451107552&q=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87981735&hl=en
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#15 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 12:32 PM
 
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If people are so sure of the success and efficacy of their vaccines then why should they worry about your kids? Seriously, if they REALLY believe that vaccines work then they have no reason to worry your child might infect them.

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#16 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 01:15 PM
 
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K, I think a shorter answer is "if vaccines were as harmless as a vitamin, but they are not. Vaccines are drugs that can cause injury like any other drug and what child will be injured cannot be predicted."

"My child is my priority" doesn't really fly here either. I think that the real issue is that the risk is not real to them. They think that the risk of injury (if they consider it at all) is remote. If they were told that there was a 25% chance their baby would die within two months of getting the DTaP would they still let the Dr inject the vaccine "to take care of their neighbor"? The stat is made up, but my point is that if they felt the risk was significant I don't think that they would really risk their child.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#17 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 03:23 PM
 
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I had cancer and went through chemo, at the same time I have an unvaxed child. My unvaxed homeschooled child got sick much much less frequently than her fully vaxed and box schooled friends. My hemotologist told me to stay away from sick people and the recently vaxed. Personally I don't want people vaxing because they think they owe the immune compromised something. If you really want to do something for the immune compromised then don't come over to visit when you are sick.
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#18 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 03:27 PM
 
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“What about the social aspect? What about all those people with immune system deficiencies, old people, and people with cancer, auto immune diseases and pregnant women? Your child will put these people at risk and may even kill them or make them very ill!”
Where's the proof that unvaccinated children are a risk. Someone would actually have to do a study comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children to determine if this were true. That's the only way to verify this claim. What is true, is that recently vaccinated children are carrying viruses that can lead to shedding. What about all the experimental viruses that escape from labs? I've posted a few articles that show how escaped viruses, often being used experimentally for potential vaccines, have escaped labs and caused horrific damage. Who is the real threat, the little child without a slew of toxins and viruses shot into her little body, or all the labs that keep deadly viruses around or even create new viruses? Or millions of children recently injected with these viruses.

Dr. Lanctot put it best when she said that the idea of vaccination was absurd. She said putting a little bit of a virus and nasty toxins in the body to possibly prevent a worse case is like saying getting raped a little is good preparation for being raped terribly.

Quote:
“What if everyone stopped vaccinating? What do you think will happen then?”
A lot of the strange new autoimmune conditions that are debilitating to millions would begin to fade away to where they were before the vaccine onslaught. The normal childhood developmental conditions would return, such as measles. Children would get a rash, a fever for a couple of days, feel fussy and get over it instead of having an autoimmune condition that lasts FOREVER. What do people think the body is going to do in response to a massive attack of toxins over and over? Other diseases that never went anywhere would again be called what they use to be called, since there would be no need to hide the numbers. Pediatricians would have to find a new marketing tool to get clients into the office.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde
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#19 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 03:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Varga View Post
I totally agree – my responsibility is my children and my family. But I guess there is a big difference between Norwegians and Americans here, because I cannot use it as an argument in this country. If I say that my responsibility is my child and not anyone else – well, people will see me as egocentric and very short sighted
I also see this argument as cultural. I recognize that it is an ethical response, that it is a moral position, but emotionally (as opposed to intellectually) I have a negative response to it (while at the same time recognizing that I probably act this way myself--is my dancing around with qualifications making my prose obscure yet? ) I think it's an American position, and I think I have a much more socialist upbringing than most of the people on MDC.

From your OP, the two responses you quote people saying to you are definitely things I would have thought (but never said) to you before I started coming to this forum. I have since learned that the ethical quandries posed might not exist at all. It's not that I have come to believe that if everyone stopped vaccinating everyone would be healthier, but I have come to believe that many non-vaxers believe this with good reason, and that it may indeed be true.

My current guiding principle in life is Kant's Categorical Imperative--always act the way you wish everyone would act all of the time. If you believe the world would be safer and healthier if no one vaccinated, then don't vaccinate.
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#20 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 07:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
I had cancer and went through chemo, at the same time I have an unvaxed child. My unvaxed homeschooled child got sick much much less frequently than her fully vaxed and box schooled friends. My hemotologist told me to stay away from sick people and the recently vaxed. Personally I don't want people vaxing because they think they owe the immune compromised something. If you really want to do something for the immune compromised then don't come over to visit when you are sick.
Precisely. This is what the oncologist told my DH and I when he was in end stage cancer. It is the recently vaccinated child, especially one with a live virus vaccine, that was the danger to my DH, not the unvaccinated one.

I thought that was interesting.

The same was true for my neighbor who had lupus; his grandchildren had to stay away from him when they were vaccinated. He had lupus and a transplanted kidney.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#21 of 31 Old 01-08-2009, 10:23 PM
 
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My answer to my kid putting others at risk would be, "well, obviously if she gets sick we will keep her at home"

and to "what if everyone stopped vaxing" would be something snarky about how wonderful it would be for chicken pox and measles to be easier to catch!

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#22 of 31 Old 01-09-2009, 05:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Varga View Post
Many of our vaccines are safer then many that you have in the US.
I would definitely be interested in a list of ingredients of the Norway-based vaccines!



So, I absolutely live by the idea that if osmeone asks you a question, it means that they want your answer. Not *an* answer, but *your* answer.

For me, my answers are often long. A quick comment about how interesting DS looks (he's quarter Korean and looks it in black and white pictures, but in color he has amber eyes and red hair, with pale skin that can tan) results in a very long talk about genetics, family history, things said to hubby when DS was brand new, and so on.

So if someone pulled me into, first, a confession that DS isn't vaxed, and two, a conversation about it, well, I'd talk about...germs.

Being vaccinated, or having had a disease that gives lifelong immunity, doesn't cause a person to be made of teflon, causing the germs to just bounce off them. Nor does it cause the germs to die on contact. No. Rather, it simply means, if the vaccine worked in the vaccinated person, that the person doesn't react obviously to the disease.

Obviously the person's body has to take it in, the body must recognize it, say "oh we know that one, we have antibodies, there you go, all done", but it won't have the huge reaction that someone else might have.

So if I'm totally immune to measles, and I walk through a "cloud" of measles germs, my body will respond in a small way to it, but I will still have them on me for a certain amount of time. So if I go and hug someone, they might get them and their bodies get to mount their own response.


I have a friend who is on the liver transplant list, due to food-borne hepatitis as a kid and a couple other bizarre issues that happened...they found that her spleen wasn't working, so they went in to take it out ('cuz that makes sense) and found she had TWO non-working spleens...she's had bile duct issues, oh the list goes on, her organs are very difficult, though she is doing very well.

To stay on that transplant list, she must fall in line with every demand, and that includes taking immunosupressive drugs.

At the same time, she is vaccinated what seems like every 5 minutes (is actually every few months). They'll do a titer, it shows non-immune, she's shot up again. Do a titer, non-immune, shot. And so on and so forth. Her insurance company won't pay for them anymore b/c it's nonessential according to them...she's paying 100s of dollars every few months for these.

See the lack of logic? She's on drugs that keep her immune system from mounting a response, but they are expecting her to create a response to the vaccines. Absolutely boggles the mind.


And she is, as I call her, Typhoid Mary. It takes near-plague to get her sick, but she spreads EVERYTHING that goes on around her. If I spend time with her in a closed room, I am GOING to get sick. I try to stay in ventilated places, LOL. She's got a swarm of germs around her, but she has no warning system b/c she doesn't mount an immune response!


Germs are out there. Being immune doesn't mean we can't be carriers. I *prefer* a non-carrier, b/c it means they get sick and I know to stay away from them.


I'd probably go on and on, but I don't want to torment you.
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#23 of 31 Old 01-09-2009, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If people are so sure of the success and efficacy of their vaccines then why should they worry about your kids? Seriously, if they REALLY believe that vaccines work then they have no reason to worry your child might infect them.
So true.
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#24 of 31 Old 01-09-2009, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you again for your thoughts. This just makes me even more confident that not vaxing is the way to go for us.

When I said Norwegian vaccines are safer – well maybe I didn’t think that one through.

I’ll have to check it up and compare. (But mercury/thimerosal for example is not allowed in vaccines here.)
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#25 of 31 Old 01-09-2009, 10:47 AM
 
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See the lack of logic? She's in drugs that keep her immune system from mounting a response, but they are expecting her to create a response to the vaccines. Absolutely boggles the mind.

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#26 of 31 Old 01-09-2009, 12:07 PM
 
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milkybean - thanks for your excellent experience and point of view!

Kim mama to DS 12/2005, Pepper kitty , and 10/03, 1/05;
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#27 of 31 Old 01-09-2009, 04:12 PM
 
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Are there any Waldorf/Steiner schools near you? If so there is usually a community of non-vaxers close by and there probably is an Anthroposophic Dr. that doesn't recommend vaxing.

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#28 of 31 Old 01-11-2009, 04:06 AM
 
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milkybean - thanks for your excellent experience and point of view!
Oh thank you! I was afraid I was going to sound extremely stupid. Too simplistic especially using the word "germs", LOL.



And yes, peainthepod, that's what I did the first few times when she told me she'd been re-vaccinated. Now we both just sigh. She has to stay in the program, and to stay in she has to jump through the hoops. She's actually getting sicker in different ways...she's reacting to more normal "bugs" and she's having problems with proteins, I feel like it's spiraling into something bad. She almost died the year of my wedding and it was so so scary and dramatic (had a one in a billion chance happening with a stent placed in her bile duct, when it migrated into her intestine and punctured it), but I'm afraid she's going to decline slowly but surely, with all of the "inactive" ingredients being shot into her. But she seriously has no choice if she wants to remain on the transplant list for the future if her liver gets too bad.
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#29 of 31 Old 01-11-2009, 02:28 PM
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my response to that is that whether a person is vaccinated or not, if they come into contact with the disease and will one of those people then they can still pass it on to those people. also people who are very sick like that have rules about who they come in contact with. they could get very sick from a common cold too... also people who are vaccinated are not 100% protected. While the majority of people vaccinated may gain immunity (often even that wears off) there is no way of knowing which people that will be. It's still a 50/50 for each individual of which catagory they will fall into and so a person who IS vaccinated may get measles, for example, which a person who is not vaccinated may not.
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#30 of 31 Old 01-11-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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