Struggling with descision... - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We haven't vaxed our son at all. I always figured we vax later on as he got bigger and before school so I wouldn't have to fight that battle. (He's almost 2 now.) But as time goes by I want to delay more and more. As I look into the future I can see that there may never be a good time to vax.

My only concern is that I do think individuals in society have a duty to do what we can to protect the society as a whole. For instance, if no one was vax against polio I think it would be devastating to the U.S. if the virus came here. I know a few older people who are crippled from polio as kids. My dad tells stories of friends of his who died from it. Obviously, most people would be fine, but some would be harmed.

I guess I'm just looking for input to justify my descision to at least continue to delay. Has anyone else struggled with this aspect of this descision?

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
Mom to AJ 4/07 and Genevieve 5/09

And then: I'm really, really tired of making angels.

But wait, could it really be true?


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#2 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 01:40 PM
 
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Interesting you bring this up. Check out this thread

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1022776

I understand what you are saying, but personally No I do not struggle with this aspect of not vaccinating. My responsibility is to MY CHILD. No ones else's. I am not willing to possible harm my son because somebody somewhere might become ill IF my son were to become ill with that disease. (BTW my uncle is wheelchair bound from polio)

Besides the entire arguement about polio and the polio vaccine causing polio to become eradicated is suspect. The figures are misleading because there was a change in criteria for notifications from 1958 onwards which cooincides with the introduction of the Salk vaccine.
http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...ary+statistics

If my son wants to do his "civic duty" than he can make that choice for himself when he is old enough and he has all the facts.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#3 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 02:10 PM
 
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I guess we differ that way. I do not feel I am responsible for other people. My sole responsibility is to my child.

Also, Society wants me to vax to protect the herd, the sick, etc - they want me to accept responsibility for their health. However, if my child has a severe vax reaction (horrible reactions have happened, children have died) - then not one person will accept responsibility for the damage done. Not doctors, not CDC, not AAP, not Merck, not GSK, not the government, not the society as a whole. And no one will help me with my child. They will write it off and forget about it.

So, I am not willing to bring my child as a sacrificial lamb to the altar of big pharma.
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#4 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 02:18 PM
 
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I suppose your argument could sway those who want to help the "greater good" over their family....but some people think that argument itself is flawed.

Polio is more complex than simply catching a virus and dropping to the floor, paralyzed. There is some speculation as to how the disease progresses, and if a synergistic factor applies. For example, African communities are heavily vaccinated against Polio and Polio cases still crop up, with complications as well.

The idea that not being vaccinated will threaten the vaccinated community just has so many things wrong with it. Vaccine efficacy? The process of disease? Immunity? Ironically, by making that argument, you are disagreeing with the very structure of vaccine-faith in America.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#5 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 03:33 PM
 
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My only concern is that I do think individuals in society have a duty to do what we can to protect the society as a whole. For instance, if no one was vax against polio I think it would be devastating to the U.S. if the virus came here. I know a few older people who are crippled from polio as kids. My dad tells stories of friends of his who died from it. Obviously, most people would be fine, but some would be harmed.

First I would like to say that I have definately been in the same boat as you with the struggle. Last night I decided to again research the diseases that are vaccinated for. I went to a very pro immunization website, figuring they would give me worse case scenario stories to scare me. it was kidshealth.org. I read EVERY disease that is "preventable" by "immunizations". I found sooo much comfort in this...especially the Polio. Although Polio is scary, it barely exists anymore, is not easy to catch now that we have cleaner water, etc. Also it was on the decline before the vax was created...
As far as your responsibility to society...
Your/my job is to make sure your/my child is safe and healthy. If I were to vaccinate him because some unhealthy person somewhere "could" "possibly" die if they caught the disease, then I would not be thinking about his well being. Not only that, but where would this society I'm protecting be when my son had an adverse reaction to the vaccine? No where! No one would care or believe the vaccine caused this.
The way I look at it. There is always that adult or child that is unhealthy. I don't mean to sound so cold about it, but someone will always have a extreme case of any sickness (flu, colds,food poisoning, etc). To throw my child under the bus so that they don't get sick is just not something I'm willing to do. Not to mention, there is more of a chance of them getting sick from a freshly vaccinated child who is shedding the virus.
Its definately a tough decision which in my case requires constant research. You're a very thoughtful and considerate person, please sleep well at night knowing that you are making the right decision. research always helps me feel better and NEVER makes me feel worse...that says a lot!
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#6 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 03:56 PM
 
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[QUOTE=sages;12944377]Not only that, but where would this society I'm protecting be when my son had an adverse reaction to the vaccine? No where! No one would care or believe the vaccine caused this.

The way I look at it. There is always that adult or child that is unhealthy. I don't mean to sound so cold about it, but someone will always have a extreme case of any sickness (flu, colds,food poisoning, etc). To throw my child under the bus so that they don't get sick is just not something I'm willing to do. /QUOTE]




The first point here (first paragraph) is very persuasive, and a good argument.

The second point (second paragraph) is flawed because of the analogy: throwing your child under a bus carries a 99% risk of immediate death; vaccinating him does not. It's not good rhetoric.

(I made up the 99% figure--I have no proof that that is the correct statistic. )
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#7 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 05:01 PM
 
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The first point here (first paragraph) is very persuasive, and a good argument.

The second point (second paragraph) is flawed because of the analogy: throwing your child under a bus carries a 99% risk of immediate death; vaccinating him does not. It's not good rhetoric.

(I made up the 99% figure--I have no proof that that is the correct statistic. )[/QUOTE]


The whole "thorwing my kid under the bus" is a figure of speech. If she believes that vaxing puts her child in harms way then that figure of speech is certainly appropriate.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#8 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 07:08 PM
 
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The whole "thorwing my kid under the bus" is a figure of speech. If she believes that vaxing puts her child in harms way then that figure of speech is certainly appropriate.[/QUOTE]

It is a figure of speech, a trope, namely a metaphor.

It is also a form of logical argument, namely an analogy,

It is also a rhetorical device, namely exaggeration,

As a metaphor it is valid and effective; as a logical argument and rhetorical device it is not persuasive.

The harm of a vaccination does not equate (surely not to anyone?) with being thrown under a bus, and so the reader, in rejecting the exaggeration and analogy, might also reject the argument; rejecting the degree of harm might result in rejecting the mere existence of harm.

(Sorry, geeky response there--but if you want to change people's minds, this metaphor/analogy is not the way to go.)
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#9 of 10 Old 01-08-2009, 11:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murihiku View Post
The whole "thorwing my kid under the bus" is a figure of speech. If she believes that vaxing puts her child in harms way then that figure of speech is certainly appropriate.
It is a figure of speech, a trope, namely a metaphor.

It is also a form of logical argument, namely an analogy,

It is also a rhetorical device, namely exaggeration,

As a metaphor it is valid and effective; as a logical argument and rhetorical device it is not persuasive.

The harm of a vaccination does not equate (surely not to anyone?) with being thrown under a bus, and so the reader, in rejecting the exaggeration and analogy, might also reject the argument; rejecting the degree of harm might result in rejecting the mere existence of harm.

(Sorry, geeky response there--but if you want to change people's minds, this metaphor/analogy is not the way to go.)[/QUOTE]


Yes I suppose if one were to get that literal you would be right..not the way to go at all!!!! I have never thought of that phrase as anything but a metaphor, no matter what context it is used in, but again thats just me

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#10 of 10 Old 01-09-2009, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm sure I'll continue to think about the decision not to vax especially as we have more kids. But, I do like the point Marnica made that my kids can make their own decision when they're older. The teen years seem a good time to guide a discussion on this topic when they can start making more of their own health decisions (safe sex, Hep B?, Gardasil?).

The "throw under a bus" metaphor aside, I do see sages point about how some people will always be susceptible to illness and there's nothing I can do about that. There's a bit of the Darwin in me that doesn't necessarily have a problem with that, of course as long as it's not my child.

It's a complicated issue. At least for me.

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
Mom to AJ 4/07 and Genevieve 5/09

And then: I'm really, really tired of making angels.

But wait, could it really be true?


The whole story at: www.xerxella.blogspot.com
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