Inlaw issues...in need of proof - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Everytime my inlaws come around they make a comment about baby shots. they know that we have decided not to vax, we haven't had a lengthy conversation about it with them, and I think they think we are against it only because of the whole autism issue. We are not only against it because of the autism issue, but for a whole sleu of other issues as well....what's in them, reactions to all the chemicals, tainting ds's immune system, etc.
My inlaws are VERY mainstream, whatever doc says goes and to question the doctors is unheard of.
DH thinks that it is a moot point to even try to explain anything to them, but I think we should at least try so they don't think we haven't done any research. So my question is, what kinds of information/proof do you use for your cases against vaxxing when confronted? I am so not good at confrontation and debating, so I could read 100 pages on the case against vax, but when it came down to stating my case, I would draw a blank. Is there anything you have memorized, short tid bits of info, or any short articles with solid proof that I can print out for them? I want to have a short blurb memorized for all people who confront us about our decision, but I don't want to sound stupid in the process.
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#2 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 12:44 PM
 
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I am inclined to agree with your DH. It's really none of your in-laws' business whether you vaccinate or not. I can understand your wanting them to agree with you but please be aware that it might never happen. Vaccination is almost a religion in allopathic medicine these days.

If you're really determined, I've found Aviva Jill Romm's book Vaccines: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide and Sherri Tenpenny's Saying No to Vaccines to be especially convincing. I also think you should get a copy of Dr. Mendelsohn's How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor for your own reference. He has a section about vaccines that is quite comforting.

In the end, it's your decision. You and your children have to live with the consequences of vaxing or not vaxing, so don't pay too much mind to others who want you to do one or the other, but will have no real responsibility should your child have a severe, debilitating, irreversible vaccine reaction. Your private medical decisions are just that: private.

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#3 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 12:56 PM
 
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I would either obviously change the subject when the comment or just tell them that you have made an educated decision regarding vaccination and that it is not up for discussion.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#4 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 01:40 PM
 
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Ugh! Sounds like my in laws and actually my parents too! Going against the grain is really difficult. Especially in our society where there is a story about "immunizing for your childs health" on every news broadcast. (At least that is how it feels to me.) Some links that have helped sway my mom:
http://www.thinktwice.com/stories.htm
http://thinktwice.com/sids.htm
http://www.*********/m/sids.html (be sure to send them a link to the VAERS site so they can see it is not an "anti vaccine, biased site".
http://www.*********/a/vaers.html
http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/
* If they need something from a conventional pediatrician, have them read the ingredients. Be sure they have a bag to vomit in handy.
Have you ever heard of Christine Northrup? She is a conventional OBGYN turned "radical". Her books "Womens Bodies Womens Wisdom" and "Mother Daughter Wisdom" are great. "Mother Daughter Wisdom" has a great part about Vaccination. She was somewhat against vaccination and didn't vaccinate her children after daughter had a bad reaction to the DTap. She was married to a conventional surgeon who took her children and had them vaccinated while she was out of town! I really value her opinions and it is a good read! Good luck! I'm like you, I have all the knowledge, but when it comes time to debate face to face, I ball up. If you ever need to vent, PM me! Sounds like our situations are very very similar!
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#5 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 02:26 PM
 
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1) Vaxes are not the reason for the decline in VPDs. There is a website that has graphs on it showing the decline by year and when vaxes were introduced... maybe someone can post it? I lost that link.

2) Most VPDs aren't that scary... MMR, chicken pox, polio, etc. Why should you vax against them? Parents are terrified of polio, so you'll have to be armed with the stats about that and how there was a change in the diagnosis process and the DDT possible confusion.

3) Flu shot has been wrong at least the last 5 years.

4) Rotavirus side effects are the same as catching the disease.

5) There have been zero documented cases of SIDS in bfed unvaxed babies.

Those are some of my quick stat replies. Personally, I enjoy holding these conversations with the parents. They don't necessarily agree, but they keep it respectful and I do hope to maybe help educate them a bit. Plus, my FIL has now decided to stop getting the flu shot!
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#6 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 02:43 PM
 
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"We have made an educated and informed decision about vaccines. We will not discuss this issue any further. Can you please pass the bean dip?"
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#7 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 02:56 PM
 
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The thing is, once you open that door you're giving them an in. If you come at them and present your "case", then they will feel that all they have to do is build a stronger "case" against you. You're giving away some of your power as the parent if you perpetuate debate about parenting issues with them.
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#8 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 03:40 PM
 
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My inlaws are the same way! Honestly,Ive learned I might as well stop wasting my breath and time.They don't believe anything I say, or anything I print off for them to read. I had all kinds of material printed out for them.Did they read it?Doubtful, because they then printed me off one page that was of course for vaccines.They seem to think my only concern is about autism too, which is so far from my reasons for not vaxing, but they can't understand that. They think vaccines prevent everything, vaccines have been around so long, and it is just simply crazy to go against them. They make more remarks on the subject to my husband than they do to my actual face. I feel like I have to be prepared everytime we go around them because I know at any minute they will have a comment about vaccines.I will not back down from them because I feel I have done the research and I am well aware of my decision.I just try to avoid the conversation all together, because they are not open minded. Best of luck to you..
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#9 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 05:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Emmeline II View Post
I would either obviously change the subject when the comment or just tell them that you have made an educated decision regarding vaccination and that it is not up for discussion.
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#10 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 07:44 PM
 
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www.vaccine911.com
http://homepage.mac.com/doctormark/h...ax_populi.html
http://www.sunherb.com/truth_about_vaccines.htm

Good Luck

I would, too, tell them that its not up for discussion and it is not their decision to make. I hope it works out for you.

Me with my baby girl Maeleigh (Oct 08) and My (step) baby girl Whren (May 05) in Heaven with her mommy .. And introducing our little JuneBug (June 10) We heard the !!!
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#11 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 07:54 PM
 
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1) Vaxes are not the reason for the decline in VPDs. There is a website that has graphs on it showing the decline by year and when vaxes were introduced... maybe someone can post it? I lost that link.

2) Most VPDs aren't that scary... MMR, chicken pox, polio, etc. Why should you vax against them? Parents are terrified of polio, so you'll have to be armed with the stats about that and how there was a change in the diagnosis process and the DDT possible confusion.

3) Flu shot has been wrong at least the last 5 years.

4) Rotavirus side effects are the same as catching the disease.

5) There have been zero documented cases of SIDS in bfed unvaxed babies.

Those are some of my quick stat replies. Personally, I enjoy holding these conversations with the parents. They don't necessarily agree, but they keep it respectful and I do hope to maybe help educate them a bit. Plus, my FIL has now decided to stop getting the flu shot!
2. Do you have any good links on the polio/DDT confusion? I have heard of this but haven't reached it yet in my studies.
3. I was under the impression that the flu shot was a miss this year, but my mom was told otherwise at a clinic? Anyone have any info on that?
Thank you!
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#12 of 27 Old 03-10-2009, 08:33 PM
 
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I took a different approach with my in-laws. The thing is, these are the people who care most and they are only trying to express that they are concerned. I found that shutting them out and saying it's not up for discussion doesn't put their mind at ease. So, what I did was ask them specifically what they were concerned about and I didn't accept the generic "he'll die from a horrible disease". I asked them specifically what disease. My in-laws are from a generation where there were a lot fewer vaxes and were really unaware of the 48 doses of 14 diseases now recommended. So they replied with "polio, measles and tetanus. They didn't even remember that D and P were on the schedule back in their kids' days'. I dealt with each of the diseases they mentioned individually, laid out the prevalence of disease, risks vs. benefits of the vax, etc. The diseases they came up with were pretty easy to discuss and it gave them some comfort that we weren't being crazy and negligent. The key was to let them do most of the talking. "What are you worried about?" Polio. What specifically are you worried about polio?" Well, you know, paralysis. And then you go from there and deal with each concern. When it's broken down, it's easier for you to sound like you've done some research and it answers the real concerns instead of just bombarding them with information they could care less about. They care about their grandchildren dying from a few diseases. It's fairly easy to set their minds at ease.

HTH
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#13 of 27 Old 03-11-2009, 11:07 AM
 
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The thing is, once you open that door you're giving them an in. If you come at them and present your "case", then they will feel that all they have to do is build a stronger "case" against you. You're giving away some of your power as the parent if you perpetuate debate about parenting issues with them.
This. If they have specific questions, answer them as best you can. Give them print-outs, links to websites, etc. for *that* question. If they are really interested, they will follow the links and find out for themselves why you aren't vaxxing.

Traycanadian, I understand what you are saying. The problem, is it doesn't matter WHAT you say, they will still not agree with you, and it will always be a point of contention in the relationship. I know, I have lived it. We've never tried to hide our DC's vax status, but we've never really shouted it from the rooftops, either. We have been open about discussing specific diseases as the ILs have had concerns. They don't agree with us AT ALL. Knowing that we have made a well-researched, well-informed decision has not eased their concerns at all. It is still a contentious issue. I try hard to change the subject whenever it comes up, because I know it isn't a conversation that is going to end well.
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#14 of 27 Old 03-11-2009, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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While I think they have all the best intentions and only want the best for ds, I don't think anything we will say or show them will change their minds. In fact, I can hear it now, they will say, 'well, Danielle's (SIL) kids are just fine!' as they compare EVERYTHING to her kids and what she does. (It drives me nutzoid!) But with that said, I still want them to know why we feel the way we do so they know we are being responsible..even if it's not their idea of responsibility...and I certainly wouldn't want them to go around telling the family that we are irresponsible parents who don't care about their grandchildren's welfare. It all makes me SO mad.

On a side note: I had to take ds to the pedi's yesterday, and while I was in the waiting room I was bombarded with posters and pamphlets on how vaccinating your kids is the safest and best way to keep them from disease, disability and death. I almost puked in my own mouth when I read those things. In fact, they had this 10 page manual written by the same woman who wrote the 'What to Expect when...' books with all these Q and A's about parental concerns regarding vaxes, and I couldn't believe my eyeballs with some of the things it said! She basically took every single topic that we DON'T vax our kids for and reassured parents that those fears are totally unfounded! I was livid just reading some of the bull$%^&. I want to print out my own pamphlets and indiscreetly place them in the peds office next time I go. I just can't believe how many stories of horrible life altering reactions there are, and they are all being swept under the carpet like they are nothing! OK....o I digress from the original topic, but I feel like comparing vaccines to the mark of the beast in the end times or something just as bad.
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#15 of 27 Old 03-11-2009, 01:30 PM
 
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While I think they have all the best intentions and only want the best for ds, I don't think anything we will say or show them will change their minds. In fact, I can hear it now, they will say, 'well, Danielle's (SIL) kids are just fine!' as they compare EVERYTHING to her kids and what she does. (It drives me nutzoid!) But with that said, I still want them to know why we feel the way we do so they know we are being responsible..even if it's not their idea of responsibility...and I certainly wouldn't want them to go around telling the family that we are irresponsible parents who don't care about their grandchildren's welfare. It all makes me SO mad.

:
Sounds like we are living the same exact life!I have a SIL that has a little girl 6 months older than my daughter and everything gets compared to her, i mean EVERYTHING! Of course she gets all her vaccinations and they seem to think it does no harm to her, but its obvious to me that it weakens her immune system because she has had to go to the doctor several times for what I call just "colds" but they seem to think she needs antibiotics and what not to make her better. My DD has never had to go to the doctor for being sick...but they don't see it the way I do! They may not see the effects on her body from the vaccines at this moment,but how do they know that down the road she wont get cancer,diabeties,and the list can continue,that could possibly be caused from the toxins in the vaccines.Im not sure that kind of proof or material that the inlaws are wanting to hear in order to somehow make them understand our side of the vaccine issue, but what I have to say will never be good enough.I just ignore them about it now because I know that whatever I say will not matter, and more than likely it will end with someone getting mad so why even discuss it.
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#16 of 27 Old 03-11-2009, 06:26 PM
 
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I am inclined to agree with your DH. It's really none of your in-laws' business whether you vaccinate or not. I can understand your wanting them to agree with you but please be aware that it might never happen. Vaccination is almost a religion in allopathic medicine these days.

If you're really determined, I've found Aviva Jill Romm's book Vaccines: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide and Sherri Tenpenny's Saying No to Vaccines to be especially convincing. I also think you should get a copy of Dr. Mendelsohn's How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor for your own reference. He has a section about vaccines that is quite comforting.

In the end, it's your decision. You and your children have to live with the consequences of vaxing or not vaxing, so don't pay too much mind to others who want you to do one or the other, but will have no real responsibility should your child have a severe, debilitating, irreversible vaccine reaction. Your private medical decisions are just that: private.

Most of the vax section is actually published on *********
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#17 of 27 Old 03-12-2009, 07:17 PM
 
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This is not useful to you, but I also won't go there with in-laws. My mother agrees with me, but if she didn't, she could bite me too and she knows this. I don't have to explain diddly squat to anyone except my child because she is the only one truly affected. I simply choose not to interfere with mother nature.
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#18 of 27 Old 03-12-2009, 07:31 PM
 
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1)
5) There have been zero documented cases of SIDS in bfed unvaxed babies.
Do you have a link for this?
I'm definitely not pro-vax, but I find this a little hard to believe
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#19 of 27 Old 03-12-2009, 07:38 PM
 
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"We have made an educated and informed decision about vaccines. We will not discuss this issue any further. Can you please pass the bean dip?"
I agree. For you, OP, obviously vaxing is something you have decided not to do....don't make it debatable by discussing the matter with your families.
Vaxing is just something that hasn't come up very often in our families....I purposely don't bring it up and that works great for us.

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#20 of 27 Old 03-12-2009, 08:50 PM
 
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Health Sentinel has really informative, clear graphs.

I agree about not opening the door. However, once it is open, if it gets open, you could ask them what vaccines they had as children and what ones they are not up-to-date on now. How did they survive their childhood without the number of vaccines now recommended? How are they not disease riddled now or passing on diseases now?

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#21 of 27 Old 03-13-2009, 01:58 AM
 
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OT,

but WTH happened at that Health Sentenial's page when you clich HOME??!! DD is w/ me so i closed the window asap. Hacked?!!! Nothing bad happened, so to speak, as of yet, but ive never came upon anything like this before. ick.
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#22 of 27 Old 03-13-2009, 11:00 AM
 
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I saw that. I don't know what happened but it's disturbing. If you stay on the graphs page it's OK.

Crunchy check list:  2 homebirths (one accidental UC!), co-slept, no CIO, cloth diapers, home/un school, raw milk drinker (!) I am a walking cliche!! I even blog and knit...
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#23 of 27 Old 03-13-2009, 12:01 PM
 
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"We have made an educated and informed decision about vaccines. We will not discuss this issue any further. Can you please pass the bean dip?"
:
Quote:
Originally Posted by paquerette View Post
The thing is, once you open that door you're giving them an in. If you come at them and present your "case", then they will feel that all they have to do is build a stronger "case" against you. You're giving away some of your power as the parent if you perpetuate debate about parenting issues with them.
and :
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauradbg View Post
I agree about not opening the door. However, once it is open, if it gets open, you could ask them what vaccines they had as children and what ones they are not up-to-date on now. How did they survive their childhood without the number of vaccines now recommended? How are they not disease riddled now or passing on diseases now?
and :

You are the parent. You are allowed to raise your child the way you want to. They've raised their children, made their choices, and they are DONE.

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#24 of 27 Old 03-14-2009, 11:05 AM
 
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I just wanted to say thanks for this thread. I haven't had to "argue" my position on not vaxing yet, but I feel like it is eventually going to come up/out & you fabulous mamas have given really great advice for how to respond. Thanks to the OP & all the responders :

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#25 of 27 Old 03-14-2009, 01:32 PM
 
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2. Do you have any good links on the polio/DDT confusion? I have heard of this but haven't reached it yet in my studies.
3. I was under the impression that the flu shot was a miss this year, but my mom was told otherwise at a clinic? Anyone have any info on that?
Thank you!
2. None of them say anything definitive, but there are graphs that show DDT use and polio cases lining up. If you google "polio and DDT", you'll get tons of links.

3. There was a bunch of talk about this on this board and/or the vaccine board. The b strain was wrong, and that's the one that hit us this year.

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Do you have a link for this?
I'm definitely not pro-vax, but I find this a little hard to believe
I didn't log the site, but I should have! I read that in a link that is in somebody's signature.
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#26 of 27 Old 03-14-2009, 09:40 PM
 
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Look in the polio archive up top; focus on posts by Momtezuma Tautara.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#27 of 27 Old 03-16-2009, 10:44 PM
 
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Everytime my inlaws come around they make a comment about baby shots. they know that we have decided not to vax, we haven't had a lengthy conversation about it with them, and I think they think we are against it only because of the whole autism issue. We are not only against it because of the autism issue, but for a whole sleu of other issues as well....what's in them, reactions to all the chemicals, tainting ds's immune system, etc.
My inlaws are VERY mainstream, whatever doc says goes and to question the doctors is unheard of.
DH thinks that it is a moot point to even try to explain anything to them, but I think we should at least try so they don't think we haven't done any research. So my question is, what kinds of information/proof do you use for your cases against vaxxing when confronted? I am so not good at confrontation and debating, so I could read 100 pages on the case against vax, but when it came down to stating my case, I would draw a blank. Is there anything you have memorized, short tid bits of info, or any short articles with solid proof that I can print out for them? I want to have a short blurb memorized for all people who confront us about our decision, but I don't want to sound stupid in the process.
Thanks!
I feel your pain. My poor Dh had a 3 hr long debate with his brother this weekend! I can't understand why he didn't just leave after the first 20 minutes but I guess it means more to him than me that his family doesn't judge us. He said that BIL basically incinuated that we were being negligent parents! He is so lucky I wasn't there b/c I would have tore him a new one. In the end Dh just told him that he had no ground to stand on and that he was being ignorant. He should have also told him to mind his own business. The issue hasn't come up (yet) with me but when it does, I am just going to them that we have done the research and are making the healthiest decision for our child, the topic is not up for debate but I would be happy to discuss it with them after they did extensive research as we have. I WILL NOT tolerate ignorance for them. I am so incredibly irritated by people who want to argue non-vaxing but have absolutely no knowledge on the matter!

BTW--MIL eats motrin for breakfast lucnh and dinner, she thinks pills & meds fix everything!!! Argh!
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