What about Tetanus? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 17 Old 03-29-2009, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Is this a vaccine worth getting?
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#2 of 17 Old 03-29-2009, 07:51 PM
 
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No not at all. Look at the rates of tetnus, the prevention, all it is is basic wound care. I know more moms will give you great links, I lost all of mine

Living DAIRY AND GLUTEN FREE for my SPD and Aspergers Little Man.
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#3 of 17 Old 03-29-2009, 07:59 PM
 
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Not unless your children are in a high risk category. Even then tetnus in children is rare. Check out the stikies and old threads on tetnus vax there are many. Also this article by Dr. Mehndelson is interesting
http://www.*********/v/mend.html

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#4 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm a big fan of Mendelsohn, I have two of his books!
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#5 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 01:47 PM
 
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I sound like I have no idea what I'm talking about, so bare with me and maybe someone can fill in the details. Someone on this board told me once that there's a shot they can give you if it looks like tetnus is possible when you are in the ER (but it's not the tetnus shot--and that wouldn't do that particular wound any good)....anyone know what that was called.

Sarah

ps...with that said, if I lived on a farm or if my kids frequented my dad's farm all time and were unsupervised, I might consider it.

Mama to girl (11), boy (7) and girl (4).  "Can't we all just get along?" joy.gif
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#6 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 02:21 PM
 
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the immunoglobulin ?
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#7 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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I knew it was a word I couldn't remember--that sounds familiar.

just out of curiosity--if you feel your child needed that would you have to ask for it or are they smart enough in the ER to give it to them in leu of a tetanus shot?

sarah

Mama to girl (11), boy (7) and girl (4).  "Can't we all just get along?" joy.gif
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#8 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 04:32 PM
 
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You may find this paper useful in making your decision:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/109/1/e2

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#9 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 06:51 PM
 
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I would not find any article written by the AAP helpful in determining whether or not a vaccine should be administered.
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#10 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ammiga View Post
I would not find any article written by the AAP helpful in determining whether or not a vaccine should be administered.
Why not? I found it helpful. Am I missing something?

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#11 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 07:51 PM
 
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The AAP firmly stands behind vaccines, credit them with the success of just about everything, don't appear to take any potential problems with them as valid points for not using them, and most AAP members use scare tactics to get patients to use vaccines (even when it means using made up "facts" or completely misleading numbers).

AAP isn't usually cited as a reliable source on this board
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#12 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 08:08 PM
 
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So how many cases of tetanus occured in children under 15 if the data presented in this paper is wrong?

This is something that was crucial to my decision regarding this vaccination and different numbers could mean a different decision. Where can I go to get correct and reliable information?

thanks,
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#13 of 17 Old 03-30-2009, 08:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8blessings View Post
So how many cases of tetanus occured in children under 15 if the data presented in this paper is wrong?

This is something that was crucial to my decision regarding this vaccination and different numbers could mean a different decision. Where can I go to get correct and reliable information?

thanks,
gr8blessings
To be honest, your posts kind of confuse me. On the "vaccination" board, you seem to have a ton of answers to people's very technical questions. But on this board you ask relatively simple questions... I can't figure you out!

But to answer your question, I don't know that there is a place to get correct and reliable information. I think some stats from some places give us general ideas, but overall, there doesn't seem to be a consistent way for physicians to diagnose diseases. In my experience (along with many many articles that I have read), doctors are very hesitant to properly diagnose anything properly when it might discredit the vaccine that is designed to prevent it. Most of my research isn't based on firm numbers, because I don't believe that those are helpful or reliable sources of information.

ETA: The reason I find those stats somewhat misleading is that it doesn't give any information about the patient. We don't know how they got tetanus, if they have compromised immune systems, or anything. Since tetanus isn't communicable, I wonder how the babies got it.

And as a side note, I don't see anything in this article that would make me give DTaP. It's not just for tetanus (nice how they get you with that one!), the tetanus numbers are tiny, and it certainly doesn't present any evidence that would convince me that an infant needs this vax.
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#14 of 17 Old 03-31-2009, 02:22 AM
 
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I read the CDC Pink Book chapter on tetanus. Tetanus itself is extremely rare. Before the vax was introduced, the cases numbered in the thousands, not tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. Tetanus in children is even more rare.

Tetanus bacteria are anaerobic; they can't live in the presence of oxygen. If you have air, you can't really have tetanus. Proper wound care is key. If you do happen to step on a nail buried in feces or dirt, then perhaps the ER shot of immunoglobin is for you. But, in general, tetanus is really hard to get.


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and Cassandra, b. October 2011

 

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#15 of 17 Old 03-31-2009, 11:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammiga View Post
To be honest, your posts kind of confuse me. On the "vaccination" board, you seem to have a ton of answers to people's very technical questions. But on this board you ask relatively simple questions... I can't figure you out!
I think you are confused because it is a logical fallacy to transfer authority in one subject area to another subject area. I know a lot about molecular pathogenesis, a little about immunology and not so much about the epidemiology of vaccination.

Quote:
Most of my research isn't based on firm numbers, because I don't believe that those are helpful or reliable sources of information.
If I went on just the pathogenesis of tetanus alone, vaccination would be a no-brainer but (underlined because it is an important but) knowing that tetanus is extremely rare sure does put the necessity of the vaccine into perspective as you conclude your post with:

Quote:
the tetanus numbers are tiny, and it certainly doesn't present any evidence that would convince me that an infant needs this vax.
So perhaps the paper was more helpful to you in your decision to not vaccinate than you originally thought?

Quote:
ETA: The reason I find those stats somewhat misleading is that it doesn't give any information about the patient. We don't know how they got tetanus, if they have compromised immune systems, or anything. Since tetanus isn't communicable, I wonder how the babies got it.
Table 1 in the paper tells you the child's age, gender, state, year they got sick, vaccine history, description of the injury, when/if they got TIG, length of hospital stay, whether they needed a ventilator or not, and the reason they kids weren't vaccinated (which is irrelevant to my decision, IMHO) for each case. http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ll/109/1/e2/T1

As for their immune systems, the pathogenesis of tetanus is not dependent on that. The bacteria produce the toxin, the toxin binds to the nerves, muscles contract. The presence of antibodies to neutralize the toxin before the toxin binds to the nerves is the only way to prevent tetanus once the toxin is produced. People with tetanus do not produce protective antibodies in the presence of the toxin. Proper wound care may prevent infection of the wound with the bacteria in some cases, but not all (a previous paper I posted showed that). Considering that most of the wounds were puncture wounds, I don't think it would be fair to assume that the parents were somehow negligent in administering proper first aid to their children and that's why the kids got tetanus. You're right that the paper does not say what precautions were taken at the time of the injury, but I find it hard to believe that a parent just ignored their child's pain and suffering. So many parents on this forum have been insulted that someone else accused them of being negligent for not vaxing their kids. If the non-vaxing parents here aren't negligent, why would the non-vaxing parents of these kids be negligent?

gr8blessings
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#16 of 17 Old 03-31-2009, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I recently ordered Dr. Tenpenny's CDC video, will she cover that in her video? Have you seen this video?
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#17 of 17 Old 03-31-2009, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8blessings View Post
I think you are confused because it is a logical fallacy to transfer authority in one subject area to another subject area. I know a lot about molecular pathogenesis, a little about immunology and not so much about the epidemiology of vaccination.



If I went on just the pathogenesis of tetanus alone, vaccination would be a no-brainer but (underlined because it is an important but) knowing that tetanus is extremely rare sure does put the necessity of the vaccine into perspective as you conclude your post with:



So perhaps the paper was more helpful to you in your decision to not vaccinate than you originally thought?



Table 1 in the paper tells you the child's age, gender, state, year they got sick, vaccine history, description of the injury, when/if they got TIG, length of hospital stay, whether they needed a ventilator or not, and the reason they kids weren't vaccinated (which is irrelevant to my decision, IMHO) for each case. http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ll/109/1/e2/T1

As for their immune systems, the pathogenesis of tetanus is not dependent on that. The bacteria produce the toxin, the toxin binds to the nerves, muscles contract. The presence of antibodies to neutralize the toxin before the toxin binds to the nerves is the only way to prevent tetanus once the toxin is produced. People with tetanus do not produce protective antibodies in the presence of the toxin. Proper wound care may prevent infection of the wound with the bacteria in some cases, but not all (a previous paper I posted showed that). Considering that most of the wounds were puncture wounds, I don't think it would be fair to assume that the parents were somehow negligent in administering proper first aid to their children and that's why the kids got tetanus. You're right that the paper does not say what precautions were taken at the time of the injury, but I find it hard to believe that a parent just ignored their child's pain and suffering. So many parents on this forum have been insulted that someone else accused them of being negligent for not vaxing their kids. If the non-vaxing parents here aren't negligent, why would the non-vaxing parents of these kids be negligent?

gr8blessings
Got it! Thanks for clearing that up. I think you would be very interesting to hold a real life conversation with.

I missed the link to the specific patients, and I found it very interesting. If anything, you are right, it firmed up my belief that tetanus isn't a necessary vax.

I don't question that parents tried to help their kids' wounds... I just wonder how they tried to help. What if they put ointment and a band-aid on it? What if they thought the fact that it wasn't bleeding was a good sign? It's not about being negligent, it's about being well-informed. My dd was almost a year old before I knew that giving her Tylenol to reduce a fever was a bad idea. I wasn't a negligent parent, I was very proactive in dd's health. I just didn't know any better.
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