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#1 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Tired of having to defend myself. Tired of being made to feel like a bad mom. Tired of having to fight about it.

I don't want to vaccinate my kids. I know in my heart it's not the right thing to do. The implications of doing it terrify me.

My husband is military and the situation looks bleaker by the day that we'll be able to accompany him to Japan. I can't imagine risking the health of my children so that we can go... but I can't imagine them going 3 years without seeing their daddy.

I hate this... it's not fair!

Val, Mama to Aidan (5 years) and Autumn (almost 2)
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#2 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 06:29 AM
 
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If I understand this correctly, you have to get some shots to go to Japan? Or does the military mandate it? Could you find a compromise?
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#3 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If I understand this correctly, you have to get some shots to go to Japan? Or does the military mandate it? Could you find a compromise?
They're saying I have to have my kids 100% up to date to get command sponsorship. It's not even a regulation, actually... and Japan requires no vaccinations for entry... but they own our family and can do whatever they want, apparently .

Even if *cringe* I decide to give up and give in. How on earth would I cram all these shots into my children within weeks without killing them?

Val, Mama to Aidan (5 years) and Autumn (almost 2)
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#4 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:13 AM
 
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Is there anyone you can appeal to? Your children aren't enlisted, after all... I don't see how they can force vaccination on civilians.

Can you contact an attorney? I don't understand how they can force you to vaccinate your children. I have to be honest, though. If it came down to it, I would do anything to avoid injecting them with substances I know to be harmful, including not going. I'm so sorry.


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#5 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:22 AM
 
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As a civilian can't you and your kids just go there on your own and skip the military channels?
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#6 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:25 AM
 
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Oh how frustrating! Hugs.
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#7 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 03:06 PM
 
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As a civilian can't you and your kids just go there on your own and skip the military channels?
That's what I was thinking ...and live off base or something? I don't know much about the military, but I have a friend who lives off-base with her hubby.
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#8 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 03:50 PM
 
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Like others posted, the military doesn't own your children. You don't have to see their doctors or live with their demands.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde
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#9 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Unfortunately they do own my husband and can refuse his family command sponsorship and force him to live alone in the barracks for 3 years. There's no way we could afford to live on the Japanese economy without our BAH and COLA.

We'll see what happens here in the next few months but It's looking like we'll be alone for a while.

Val, Mama to Aidan (5 years) and Autumn (almost 2)
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#10 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 10:41 PM
 
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As a civilian can't you and your kids just go there on your own and skip the military channels?
With command sponsorship, you get BAH (the portion of the salary dedicated to housing costs). I don't know how one could pay for housing without BAH.
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#11 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:05 PM
 
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I wonder who is giving you this information? We are military and we lived in Germany and my children were not up to date on their vaxes. They never said anything to us. We lived off base for awhile and then on base. It never came up??? I just can't imagine. The military does not own your kids or you. Why would they not give your dh bah? I am sure he is up to date on his shots!! Seems strange to me.
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#12 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:14 PM
 
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They're saying I have to have my kids 100% up to date to get command sponsorship. It's not even a regulation, actually... and Japan requires no vaccinations for entry... but they own our family and can do whatever they want, apparently .

Even if *cringe* I decide to give up and give in. How on earth would I cram all these shots into my children within weeks without killing them?
Exactly. Not only will you be going against your mama instincts, but you will have to give them what in my opinion is lethal doses of shots pretty much one on top of the other.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I don't know what I would do in the situation. I'm pretty rebellious, so just the fact that they were trying to make me do something I was against would make me stubbornly continue to refuse.
You just have to listen to yourself and decide what is best for your children. Your job as mama is to protect them, whether it be from the vaxs or the emotional pain of being away from their dad. I'm so sorry.
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#13 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:21 PM
 
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There is no possibly way I would sacrifice my family in order to NOT vaccinate. Its probably 99.9% likely your kids will be totally healthy after receiving all of their vaccines. Its 100% assured that being without their father for 3 years will have a life-long effect on their relationship with him. No way.

And FWIW, you CANNOT cram all of the recommended vaccines in within a few weeks. There are guidelines set up for different vaccines, some of which have to be month(s) apart.

Nicole - Mom to FOUR healthy, happy, wild boys.
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#14 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:25 PM
 
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Its probably 99.9% likely your kids will be totally healthy after receiving all of their vaccines.
Do you have a source for this figure or is it just your own personal guess?

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#15 of 49 Old 05-27-2009, 11:33 PM
 
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There is no possibly way I would sacrifice my family in order to NOT vaccinate. Its probably 99.9% likely your kids will be totally healthy after receiving all of their vaccines. Its 100% assured that being without their father for 3 years will have a life-long effect on their relationship with him. No way.

And FWIW, you CANNOT cram all of the recommended vaccines in within a few weeks. There are guidelines set up for different vaccines, some of which have to be month(s) apart.
I guess I feel like I would be sacrificing my family if I did vaccinate.

I'm not at all sure where you can say that her children are 99.9% likely to be totally healthy if they are vaxed. I can't even say that 99.9% of the people I know are totally healthy, most of us exhibit issues that are related to vaxing (arthritis, asthma, allergies, etc., just to name a few). And that says nothing for the fact that I know way too many people that have died from cancer at far to early of an age.

To the OP, I am so sorry you are struggling with this. I'm sure there is a way around it, but I don't have any experience with the military to offer you any advice on how to do it. My thoughts are with you and your family.
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#16 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I feel like I would be sacrificing my family if I did vaccinate.

I'm not at all sure where you can say that her children are 99.9% likely to be totally healthy if they are vaxed. I can't even say that 99.9% of the people I know are totally healthy, most of us exhibit issues that are related to vaxing (arthritis, asthma, allergies, etc., just to name a few). And that says nothing for the fact that I know way too many people that have died from cancer at far to early of an age.

To the OP, I am so sorry you are struggling with this. I'm sure there is a way around it, but I don't have any experience with the military to offer you any advice on how to do it. My thoughts are with you and your family.
To the person that said there is a 99.9% chance that my children will be fine... My son is vaccine damaged. After he got his 3 year shots he immediately became allergic to wheat, eggs, dairy, apples, and soy. You try to live on a diet without those things. If he has any of them he goes into anaphylactic shock. I'm not playing roulette with their immune systems anymore. My biggest regret is getting him any shots at all, ever. I cry at night thinking about what I've put him through with my ignorance. I won't let a needle touch my daughter. I just won't... Life will go on for us with a temporary seperation from their father... I don't know how I'd go on if she was damaged as well.

Thanks for all the kind thoughts... I'm just scared right now. DH is behind me if I need to stay here with the kids but I was so excited to be able to experience Japan with them. Our only hope is that we can skim through the health screening at Lemoore without anyone noticing. That was my hope here but they noticed and said we'd run into legal trouble if I fought them on it. We've got one more chance that the medical center there is more understanding.

Val, Mama to Aidan (5 years) and Autumn (almost 2)
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#17 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 10:06 AM
 
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I think you need to research on your own about the vax issue and not take the military at its word. I would ask to see the regulation that they are attempting to enforce. My dh is in the AF and I had to fight to get my dd into the DoD preschool without all of her immunizations.

My kids are not fully vaxed but I cannot imagine voluntarily staying behind for 3 years. The damage that would do to my family would never be anything compared to the possible damage any vaccine would do. I am feeling so sad for your kids that you are even contemplating not going with your dh for 3 years. 3 years is such a long time. Think of everything he will miss being away from them for that amount of time.

Some anecdata for you- my dh's father spent 3 years in Germany while he and his mother stayed back in the states. My dh was pretty young. It was not good when his dad got back and they have never had a great father-son relationship.
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#18 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 10:29 AM
 
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Don't go down without a fight! Make them justify themselves at the highest level!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by mommyrn5 <img title="View Post" class="inlineimg" alt="View Post" border="0">
Thanks, Emmeline! Through Google, I found your response to another person with the same question only a couple of weeks ago. Because of the AFIs you posted, I was able to locate a few more AFIs. Everything I read said that dependents have to get whatever vaxes are required for entry into that particular country (Japanese Encephalitis for Japan, for example), but I couldn't find anything anywhere that stated a dependent's vaxes must be up to date in order to get command sponsorship or for the military to purchase the dependent's plane tickets.

I also found, through my research, that this seems to be a common "threat" people are hearing lately. I am beginning to think that this is one of those things like people telling you your kids can't go to school without being vaxed. It isn't true, but people hear it, they believe it, they repeat it. But at the heart of it is a veiled attempt to scare people into vaxing their kids. I also finally spoke with someone at Outbound Assignments at the base. She said that if you get medical clearance, they cut the orders and buy the tickets. Since I went through the medical clearance process last year, I know that dependent's vax records aren't looked at in that process.

Thanks, again, for all the pubs you listed. They were a huge help!

Kathy


Good. I'm going to save this.
Yes, I've only been hearing stories like this in the past couple of months. One was a Navy spouse who's dh's inbound commander, at a naval base in Italy, was denied (verbally I assume) command sponsorship (thanks for that term; I forgot<img alt="" title="thumbs up" class="inlineimg" border="0">) due to their child's vaccine status and the dh was given another assignment.

So right now I'm thinking a commander can refuse a service member but their is no reg allowing denial of CS to dependents based on their vaccination status, and the service member would have to be given a new assignment.

Right now there is no country a dependent can go to that requires vaccinations for visitors and no SOFA that requires it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

on Apr. 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM

You know, in the two years since my son was born, I've only had one pediatrician (between my two children) question my decision not to vaccinate. Every other one just double checked with me (to confirm what I told the tech) and that was that. The one guy who questioned me was a real douchebag.


I was taking my daughter in who has numerous medical problems (was a preemie & low birth weight baby who probably has cerebral palsy or something similiar). She was gaining weight very slowly at 6 months, and was exclusively breastfed. I couldn't bottle feed or give her solid food because of her problems. He went on for 15 minutes about her weight gain, trying to make me feel bad for never pumping (supposedly that would tell me if I had a low supply, and when I told him pumping bears no reflection on your supply he looked at me like I was an idiot), then tried to make me feel bad for never giving her a bottle (when attempted it activates her severe gag reflex and she pukes everywhere, so why bother when my boobs work just fine) and then acted like I was an idiot when I told him she had sensory issues with her mouth and I couldn't feed her solids quite yet. I then asked him for a referral to a nutritionist, and he told me there wouldn't be a point because she was only breastfed. He said I shouldn't wait past 6 months to introduce solids because it could cause food allergies -WTF!
He then started in on vaccinations. I told him that we were very educated and researched a lot on the matter, and if we DID vaccinate, it wouldn't be until they were older. He then said that vaccines weren't as effective if you waited until they were older!!! I just stared at him and told him our minds were made up and I wasn't going to discuss my reasons with him. He was irritating me for treating me like an idiot and making things up to try to persuade me to go his way. And if he wasn't making them up, then I don't know what research he's reading, because I'd never heard the things he was saying.

I felt like I had to explain that I was an intelligent woman, that just because I'm a SAHM mom, doesn't mean I'm not smart and educated. I graduated from the Air Force Academy, for crying out loud.

I just hate being condescended to. But I know my rights, and for whatever reason, in the experiences I've seen with me and my sister, they tend to not try to push around officers/officers wives as much as enlisted. My sister said they tried fear tactics all the time with her when her DH was enlisted, but never when he was an officer. And having been enlisted and an officer, I've seen that as well.

Just don't accept that answer. I really don't believe that they can refuse to PCS you overseas because you or your children aren't vaccinated.

If this happened to me, this is the order in which I would take action:
  1. Contact my DH's chain of command to see if they can work the situation.
  2. Then make an IG complaint if that didn't work,
  3. Write to my congressman if that failed, and lastly
  4. Contact the media.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#19 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 10:55 AM
 
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I think you need to research on your own about the vax issue and not take the military at its word. I would ask to see the regulation that they are attempting to enforce. My dh is in the AF and I had to fight to get my dd into the DoD preschool without all of her immunizations.
I agree with you on this but this

Quote:
My kids are not fully vaxed but I cannot imagine voluntarily staying behind for 3 years. The damage that would do to my family would never be anything compared to the possible damage any vaccine would do. I am feeling so sad for your kids that you are even contemplating not going with your dh for 3 years. 3 years is such a long time. Think of everything he will miss being away from them for that amount of time.
is pretty unnecessary. Her child was injured by vaccination and now has severe food allergies that make his life much more difficult than it has to be. I don't think you're qualified to tell her that the vaccine reaction wouldn't be worse than the separation. What works for your family might not work for hers.

I understand where you're coming from but I think the last thing OP needs right now is another heaping serving of guilt.

OP, you really should contact legal representation and fight this thing. I don't know much about the military but I DO know that they can't (yet) vaccinate civilians against their will, much less minor civilians against their parents' wishes. At least, not without a court order. Is there a court order?

Please keep us posted and keep posting here for support as much as you need to. I'll be thinking of you.

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#20 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 11:18 AM
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Can you get the HCP who administered your DS's 3 year shots to write out a health exemption letter for your children? My relative's DS had a severe vax reaction and all of her children are exempt from getting any vaccines due to the severity of the reaction.
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#21 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 02:13 PM
 
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what the military is telling you is bs....they will say anything to scaremonger to get people to vax. like someone else here said, she was living in germany with her family and vaxs were not an issue. you need to research a lot, and fight them on this. i am 100% behind you that you shouldnt vax your kids, but you also need to tell them that you are going with your husband and they cannot force you to vax your children. if anything, claim you are religiously opposed to it. thats what i do for daycare.

DS 5-11-06
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#22 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 02:21 PM
 
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I don't know much about the military but I DO know that they can't (yet) vaccinate civilians against their will, much less minor civilians against their parents' wishes. At least, not without a court order. Is there a court order?
I think some people are misunderstanding the issue. The issue is not forced vaccination (they are not forcing the dependents to vaccinate-they are just saying that if they don't, they won't get medical clearance); it is Command Sponsorship.

Without Command Sponsorship:

The military will not pay for flights for the spouse and children.
The military will not pay for moving the household goods "with dependents"
The military will not pay for housing for the family.
The military will not pay COLA.
The spouse and children would not be protected by the SOFA; they would only be tourists.
Tourists have a limited time they can remain in the country; far short of three years.

So far as I can tell this is only a NAVY Japan/Italy issue, at present.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#23 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 02:25 PM
 
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what the military is telling you is bs....they will say anything to scaremonger to get people to vax. like someone else here said, she was living in germany with her family and vaxs were not an issue. you need to research a lot, and fight them on this. i am 100% behind you that you shouldnt vax your kids, but you also need to tell them that you are going with your husband and they cannot force you to vax your children. if anything, claim you are religiously opposed to it. thats what i do for daycare.
I know several other "someone elses", all NAVY, whose spouses were slated to go to Italy/Japan, and have run into the same problem; these stories started popping up in Jan '09.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#24 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 02:27 PM
 
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I've removed some posts from this thread that were either UAVs or quoting them.
Please keep in mind where you are:
Quote:
This forum was created to serve the needs of members who have made the decision not to vaccinate or are seriously exploring making this decision
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#25 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 02:58 PM
 
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I think some people are misunderstanding the issue. The issue is not forced vaccination (they are not forcing the dependents to vaccinate-they are just saying that if they don't, they won't get medical clearance); it is Command Sponsorship.

Without Command Sponsorship:

The military will not pay for flights for the spouse and children.
The military will not pay for moving the household goods "with dependents"
The military will not pay for housing for the family.
The military will not pay COLA.
The spouse and children would not be protected by the SOFA; they would only be tourists.
Tourists have a limited time they can remain in the country; far short of three years.

So far as I can tell this is only a NAVY Japan/Italy issue, at present.
But is it legal, do you know? Is there a specific regulation that gives a military commander control over a serviceperson's children's medical decisions? I guess that's my (more pertinent) question.

Do the children have to be vaxed for the family to get medical clearance by regulation, or is this just someone on a power trip? What happens if they just ignore the order and try to slip through the cracks?

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#26 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 02:59 PM
 
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How does your husband feel about this? Does he support the decision not to vax even if it means he won't really see you or his kids for 3 years? Surely if your child was injured by vaccines a physician's note documenting this would help on that end for that child. And if vaccines actually did cause the horrible allergies you claim then that would also serve as an excuse for your other children as allergies tend to run in families. I know b/c of my chicken allergy growing up I couldn't get a flu shot and as a result it's also contraindicated for my sister. I think you need to do some more research and talk to someone who actually knows about this issue in the military. I would also get a note from your ped about your ds's adverse vax reaction.
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#27 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 06:12 PM
 
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But is it legal, do you know? Is there a specific regulation that gives a military commander control over a serviceperson's children's medical decisions? I guess that's my (more pertinent) question.

Do the children have to be vaxed for the family to get medical clearance by regulation, or is this just someone on a power trip? What happens if they just ignore the order and try to slip through the cracks?
The regulations are very vague and just say that the waver to not vaccinate need to be signed by the commander. Nothing says that the commander has to approve the waver. The regulations sound like it is at the commanders discretion.
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#28 of 49 Old 05-28-2009, 08:13 PM
 
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Her child was injured by vaccination and now has severe food allergies that make his life much more difficult than it has to be.
I missed this part of the OP's story. I only read the first post. In that case, I would push for a medical exemption and try every single possible way to make sure my family was intact. I know what it's like to get the runaround from the military with vax issues.
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#29 of 49 Old 05-29-2009, 10:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by marybethorama View Post
If the OP has a vaccine damaged child, why isn't she looking for a medical exemption?
I can't answer that, maybe the OP can.

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#30 of 49 Old 05-29-2009, 10:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by marybethorama View Post
If the OP has a vaccine damaged child, why isn't she looking for a medical exemption?

First, most doctors will not admit any vaccine damage. Second, if one does, the exemption is usually only for one vaccine that caused damage. Third, siblings would not get their own exemptions.

OP, Emmeline, can the religious exemption work here somehow?
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