The "straw man" of non-vax parents riding on herd immunity - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 18 Old 09-06-2009, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was listening to this new book, Life, Inc. on the author's website and everything was fine until I heard the familiar (what I believe to be a) straw man of parents who refuse vaccination. Now I may be misunderstanding the author but he seems to set up an example of someone who refuses vaccines because they know everyone else is getting them so their kids are safe from the epidemic. Now, I know a lot of people who do not use vaccines, and I have not heard a single one of them express anything other than dismay at other kids receiving vaccination. This includes me. Personally I do not vaccinate because I do not believe them to be safe or effective. This means I don't believe they are safe or effective for anyone! I want to write the author and explain that I believe this is a mischaracterization of the anti-vaccine group and we really don't need any more mischaracterization, tyvm. What would you say? (The gist of his book is that, due to the overwhelming influence of corporate culture, we are all making decisions like corporations, i.e. selfishly versus what is best for the community). Amazon does not yet have the search feature for this book so I can't point out the part where he mentions the straw non-vax parent but it is in the sample you can listen to.

edited to add, I am not saying he is making a pro-vaccine argument as he states we are making these decisions under duress I am only objecting to this herd-immunity-ride-out idea. I have not finished the book after all.

Michelle: obsessed crafter, Buddhist Yogini, college student, and unschooling mom of two awesome daughters 12 and 6
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#2 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:31 AM
 
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Please don't flame me, but I think I fall into that category. I think vaccines can be of use in certain situations. However, right now my kids are not in any situations that would require them to be vaccinated. Actually, I take that back. My daughter was adopted at birth. The birth mom had no prenatal care and her hepatitis status was unknown. She was tested, but the results would not be back for a week. To prevent hep b in a newborn, the shot has to be given right away. Although she'd received the hep B before I arrived, I would have consented to her receiving it. I did consent to her getting the immunoglobulin.

I'm watching the H1N1 situation closely. At this point, I think the risks of the shot outweigh the risks of the disease. If I get information that it is reversed, I will have my kids receive that vaccine.

I do think there are diseases that are under control due to vaccines. My kids benefit from the herd immunity. Although I find vaccines risky, other parents find not vaccinating risky. I would advise them to read the same things I have, but that doesn't mean they'd make the same choices I would. So I do believe that my kids benefit from herd immunity. I do no advocate their kids get shots so mine don't have to. I simply think my choices are easier because certain diseases are under control due to vaccines.

You may disagree with me, but I think the point of your post was to find out if what he's saying is true. It's not for everyone. And it's not quite in the way you describe it for me. But it is sort of my reality.

Created an instant family (7/89 and 5/91) in 1997. Made a baby boy 12/05 adopted a baby girl 8/08. Ask me about tandem adoptive nursing. Now living as gluten, dairy, cane sugar, and tomato free vegetarians. Homeschooling and loving it.

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#3 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for your input; I guess I stand corrected!

Michelle: obsessed crafter, Buddhist Yogini, college student, and unschooling mom of two awesome daughters 12 and 6
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#4 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:40 AM
 
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Well, I am not planning on vaxing, but not because of herd immunity. Personally, I am choosing not to vax because I think vaccines are neither safe nor effective. I've done a lot of research on this, and I just don't think one can conclusively say that vaccines are what made the diseases ineffective/null and void. At the same time that vaccines were introduced, so was better nutrition, sanitation, and the concept of washing hands, staying clean, etc.

I'm sure we've all read the same research on this forum, so I don't have to reiterate it!

This is not to say I don't think vaccines are 100% ineffective. Obviously, this isn't true. But, for me, personally, their risks outweigh the benefits.

Suffice to say, I don't agree with the author - that every non-vaxer chooses not to vax because everyone else is vaxed and so everything is safe. To be honest, that never entered my mind. Heck, I travel to undeveloped countries and never bother to look at what vaccines are recommended - I'm not getting them anyway.

My bottom line: I don't vax because I don't think it's safe.

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#5 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:45 AM
 
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I actually feel my kid is at a disadvantage because of herd immunity. I would prefer my daughter to get these mostly harmless childhood diseases now and develop real immunity, which could protect her future children through nursing.

There are only two diseases for which I feel the vaccine's benefits outweigh the risks, and when my child is older, if they are still recommended, we will vaccinate for them - even though the diseases have been virtually eradicated here. If I feel I am actually benefiting from herd immunity than I will contribute to it.

I'm Kellie :, married to Chris , and mom to one baby girl (7/12/09).
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#6 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:51 AM
 
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I totally agree with you, OP, I think those who don't vaccinate because they feel that herd immunity keeps them safe are strongly in the minority of non-vaxers.

I had a friend who was a doctor, who upon finding out I am a non-vaxer, she ASSUMED it was due to my counting on herd immunity and that was very annoying.
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#7 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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I had a friend who was a doctor, who upon finding out I am a non-vaxer, she ASSUMED it was due to my counting on herd immunity and that was very annoying.
The medical community has to think like this. They can't allow themselves to think any other way. They resort to these unfounded ideas regarding those who choose to not inject known toxins into their healthy children. We have to be relying on them they say. It has to be this way. If we are not, then what are they doing? Why do they exist?

I personally don't know anyone who does not vaccinate who thinks about this. As a matter of fact the opposite is true. I want my children to get exposed to these normal childhood developmental conditions, such as measles, chicken pox, mumps, pertussis and rubella. The other stuff they have vaxes for they are just creating fear where it never really existed, unless you're living environment is similar to a refugee camp or you are loading up on pharmaceuticals and vaccines.

The medical community doesn't get it and never will. They are taught to live in fear. That is how products are sold. If a doctor screams measles in the woods and nobody is there to hear him, does it matter?

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde
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#8 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:22 PM
 
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For me, herd immunity (regardless of how effective it may or may not be for each VAD) is completely irrelevant; if I believed in the merits of this route of herd immunity and wanted to part of the herd I would vaccinate. Because I believe there are safer methods of disease prevention, I would not vaccinate even if these VADs became endemic.


 

 

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#9 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:25 PM
 
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I actually feel my kid is at a disadvantage because of herd immunity. I would prefer my daughter to get these mostly harmless childhood diseases now and develop real immunity, which could protect her future children through nursing.
This.

Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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#10 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:36 PM
 
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I absolutely believe that herd immunity does keep my kids from getting certain diseases they are not vaxed for.

However. I don't skip these vaccines because I feel I can rely on herd immunity to protect my children. I skip them because I feel there is no need to get them. Chicken pox being a prime example.
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#11 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:43 PM
 
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I am not vaccinated and I never knew what "herd immunity" was until I was accused of relying on it.

Where is the science in herd immunity? There is none. It was a guess that a researcher made based on studies done in the 1920's based on cattle behavior that had nothing to do with disease or vaccination. We are not cows.

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The herd immunity theory was originally coined in 1933 by a researcher [named] Hedrich. He had been studying measles patterns in the US between 1900-1931 (years before any vaccine was ever invented for measles) and he observed that epidemics of the illness only occurred when less than 68% of children had developed a natural immunity to it. This was based upon the principle that children build their own immunity after suffering with or being exposed to the disease. So the herd immunity theory was, in fact, about natural disease processes and nothing to do with vaccination
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11078115
http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/...en-Like-Cattle

Herd immunity certainly did not work with polio since many disease carriers of the polio virus are asymptomatic. Quarantine also simply did not work for polio, although quarantine is a tried and true disease preventive.
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#12 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 01:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hxcmama View Post
Personally I do not vaccinate because I do not believe them to be safe or effective. This means I don't believe they are safe or effective for anyone!
I agree. My daughter is completely unvaccinated. I wish that everyone else was completely unvaccinated too, for the sake of their health too. Vaccination is not immunization. Vaccines had nothing to do with the decline in diseases.

Traditional & nutrient-dense foods/Weston A. Price Foundation advocate, Reiki II practitioner, EFT practitioner, past life & life between lives Hypnotherapist practitioner. Home birth with DD 2007 = never vaccinated, breastfed 3 years

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#13 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 02:14 PM
 
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I don't vax my kiddos mainly because most of the diseases are thankfully rare and/or relatively mild in otherwise healthy children and, to a lesser degree, because they do have some serious side effects.

Whether the diseases are rare because or vaccines or not, is debatable. And if this is what is considered "herd" immunity, then I guess I am guilty of this - I just think the possiblity of catching many of the diseases that are on the vaccine schedule are remote for my kids and if they do catch them, we have antibiotics that can be used to fight the more dangerous secondary bacterial infections that can sometimes result.

If we were having a epidemic of diptheria in the US, for example, and there were children/adults dying, I'm not too proud to say that I would definately give vaccinating (my kids and myself) additional consideration.

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Mama to Scott (USAF), Katie (18), Karlie (16), Kimmy (9), Klara (4.5), and Baby Khloe (2.5)
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#14 of 18 Old 09-07-2009, 11:29 PM
 
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Um, no.

I want my children to get TCDs; as for the rest, I believe the risk of the vaccine to be greater than the risk of my child not only getting the disease but also suffering severe complications.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#15 of 18 Old 09-08-2009, 01:55 AM
 
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Um, several vaccines do NOT prevent transmission?

Vaccinated people are carriers of disease, too?

It's arguable that newly vaccinated people could spread the disease even moreso than the general public at the time?

I've never thought my child was protected by the myth of herd immunity. And I'm pretty angry that now she has to get wild chicken pox virus and the attenuated vaccine-virus before puberty.

And I'm angry that widespread application of bacterial vaccines has caused sero-type replacement. Did we learn nothing from MRSA?

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#16 of 18 Old 09-09-2009, 07:30 PM
 
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I don't vaccinate because I don't believe vaccines are effective. To add to that, they're even potentially fatal. I treasure my child's health and life and I refuse to take chances with either.

What is 'herd immunity?' Apparently when 68% or more of the population--not just children--is immune. So from the viewpoint of a vaccine advocate, 'herd immunity' means 68%+ of the population as a whole must be vaccinated. But are they? I'm willing to bet they are not. The vaccination figures I've seen only take children into consideration. Not very many adults are forced into vaccination and some are using exemptions to get around it. There are more adults than there are children. In the end, the 'herd immunity' argument used against us is basically a figment of the CDC's imagination.

To make matters worse, some vaccines can and do spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent. So the more children vaccinated--the same children our children are supposed to go to school and play with--the more likely they are of getting sick. Mind you, I welcome the childhood diseases once the time is right, I'm just saying actual herd immunity and herd vaccination are two entirely different matters.

I feel sorry for every child forced into vaccination. That's not meant to offend anyone here. It's just very sad to me.
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#17 of 18 Old 09-11-2009, 11:43 AM
 
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I am not vaccinated and I never knew what "herd immunity" was until I was accused of relying on it.

Where is the science in herd immunity? There is none. It was a guess that a researcher made based on studies done in the 1920's based on cattle behavior that had nothing to do with disease or vaccination. We are not cows.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11078115
http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/...en-Like-Cattle

Herd immunity certainly did not work with polio since many disease carriers of the polio virus are asymptomatic. Quarantine also simply did not work for polio, although quarantine is a tried and true disease preventive.
: Herd immunity is meant to be applied to diseases that people acquire naturally and gain TRUE immunity to. This is what Hendrich has demonstrated. Scientists have conveniently applied this copncept to vaccine induced immunity. It's comparing apples to oranges IMO. Since the majority of of adults are not up to date on vaccines, the "herd" is not as immune as they want you to believe.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#18 of 18 Old 09-11-2009, 11:48 AM
 
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And I'm angry that widespread application of bacterial vaccines has caused sero-type replacement. Did we learn nothing from MRSA?

. I think big pharma actually benefit from serotype replacement and this disaster of trying to outsmart and ourun mother nature. As long as bacteria and viruses continue to mutate (which they will) than they can set about creating more drugs and more vaccines to kill them and make more and more money. As long as there is a demand (which there will be thanks to the media and government fear mongering) this will go on until a superbug that they won't be able to create drugs or a vaccine for will kill billions of people....Mother nature ALWAYS wins, that's why it is better to work with her rather than against her!

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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