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#1 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am starting to question whether rabies is a real disease that humans can catch.

I read this article:

http://www.*********/vaccine/rabies.html

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Is rabies then a disease? Have we isolated a virus or germ? Is the Pasteur-treatment specific? Is rabies, in short, fact or fancy? I believe it is fancy, for I have handled so-called rabid animals and humans without benefit of Pasteur treatment and in no case has there been a death or any other symptoms of rabies. I submit that rabies is non-existent and that the Pasteur treatment for rabies is worse than the disease, if it were a disease, which it is not.
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#2 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 01:04 AM
 
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You read this on *********.

'Nuff said.
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#3 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 01:29 AM
 
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I don't vax my family. I don't think the risks are worth the benefits.

I see no reason to NOT believe that rabies is real. Gotta agree that wale.to is not a really reliable site. They DO have some good stuff... but I wouldn't go on anything that's there unless you find it elsewhere too.

They know the virus that causes rabies. They know how it transmits (saliva to open wound usually) Is it possible to handle a rabid animal without transmission? Absolutely.

That article goes on a bit about historical data where there was no confirmation of rabies. That's useless.

Is it understood 100%? No. I still think it exists.

-Angela
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#4 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 01:57 AM
 
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I could only find numbers for 2007, but one case for humans, and 7,200 cases in animals (mostly wildlife):

http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/docs/rabie...ce_us_2007.pdf

Here is a 2008 case but imported:
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/blog/2009/...ies-cases.html


Although I do find it interesting that the vax (for humans) in 2008 seemed to be in shortage:
http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/news/2008-05-20_PreEVax.html
http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/news/RabVaxupdate.html

I tend to think, as with infuenza vaccine or any vaccine, supply and demand drives the market. Pharma is a business afterall with a bottom line and stock trades.
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#5 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 11:28 AM
 
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Of course its real. Doesn't mean every person should vaccinate for it, but its deffinitly real. Its not pleasent and if I remember right there has only been one person to servive it, I believe it was recently too.

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#6 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm curious what's wrong with *********?? (What's the "to" stand for?)

I don't consider the CDC to be a reliable source. They're in bed with big pharma. The CDC would like us all to be in a permanent state of frenzied hysteria over every infectious disease.
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#7 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, since I'm in the "I'm not vaccinating" forum, I'm going to assume that most of us in here don't view vaccines as some silver bullet, so bear with me.

Why do we assume that the rabies vaccine is effective and a silver bullet to prevent a fatal disease if we don't view other vaccines that way?

I don't believe in the efficacy of big pharmas miracle drugs, so I don't believe in their rabies vaccine.

So, if their vaccine is worthless (or worse, since it causes harm), then how come more people don't die of rabies?
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#8 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rayo de sol View Post
OK, since I'm in the "I'm not vaccinating" forum, I'm going to assume that most of us in here don't view vaccines as some silver bullet, so bear with me.

Why do we assume that the rabies vaccine is effective and a silver bullet to prevent a fatal disease if we don't view other vaccines that way?

I don't believe in the efficacy of big pharmas miracle drugs, so I don't believe in their rabies vaccine.

So, if their vaccine is worthless (or worse, since it causes harm), then how come more people don't die of rabies?

my reasoning

because there has only ever been one person to survive rabies without the vaccine in recent history.

While rabies isn't common and its not a "maditory" vaccines (here at least not sure about other area's), rabies themselve is deadly to animals and humans alike. Not only does it kill, but if I remember correctly it also makes a person crazy and its excrusiatingly painful too.

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#9 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 08:55 PM
 
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So, if their vaccine is worthless (or worse, since it causes harm), then how come more people don't die of rabies?

Rabies isn't something you catch like whooping cough or measles- you have to be bitten by an infected animal. Rabies isn't terribly common in wildlife or in domestic animals (most domestic animals are vaccinated for it), but it IS out there. But in order from it to get from that infected animal to a human, there has to be contact, and most people just aren't out there handling rabid animals, or even most animals that have rabies (raccoons and foxes are wild animals that often carry rabies. I can't say I've ever come in contact with either of them. As much as I love animals, I give them their distance and figure most people do the same).

There just aren't that many instances of transmission- that's the most likely answer as to why there isn't widespread death from rabies. It's an extremely deadly disease for humans, but the transmission rates aren't there for it to be an epidemic.
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#10 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 09:33 PM
 
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i do not vaccinate, and never will. But i will say that rabies is the only vaccine i would ever consider. rabies is NOT treatable. if we catch whooping cough, measles, or even tetanus, they are treatable. rabies, is absolutley NOT.
for the most part, wild animals that are often rabid will stay far from humans. we live in an area where racoons, skunks, foxes, coyotes, and even bobcats are seen relatively often.
(warning: what i am about to say may offend someone)
If myself or one of my children were bitten by a wild animal, i would get the gun, and kill it, and have it tested. and would have no guilt in doing so. no animal is more important than my babies. if it was found to be rabid, i would do the shots. I would HATE IT. but it is better than death.
we had bats in our attic last year and i was absolutely beside myself with worry about rabies, so i did a ton of research.
I agree that whale to is not a good site for research. but the CDC isnt either.
by the way, rabies is the only vaccine we give our cats.

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#11 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 11:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rayo de sol View Post
I'm curious what's wrong with *********?? (What's the "to" stand for?)

I don't consider the CDC to be a reliable source. They're in bed with big pharma. The CDC would like us all to be in a permanent state of frenzied hysteria over every infectious disease.

********* has a lot of stuff that's simply not backed up anywhere else. Lots of poorly written stuff too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayo de sol View Post
OK, since I'm in the "I'm not vaccinating" forum, I'm going to assume that most of us in here don't view vaccines as some silver bullet, so bear with me.

Why do we assume that the rabies vaccine is effective and a silver bullet to prevent a fatal disease if we don't view other vaccines that way?

I don't believe in the efficacy of big pharmas miracle drugs, so I don't believe in their rabies vaccine.

So, if their vaccine is worthless (or worse, since it causes harm), then how come more people don't die of rabies?

It's very hard to get rabies. Most rabid animals die way before infecting anyone else, much less a human.

There are other things that are treated with IG and vax- tetanus for one (I know IG, not sure if vax is used in treatment)

Rabies is NOT well understood. I think in the next few decades more will be discovered about it and it will become better understood. Historically our knowledge of viruses is very young and it's an unusual virus. I expect that in the next century for sure, maybe sooner, there will be other treatments, like the recent one.

IF my child had a known bite or known contact with a confirmed rabid animal, I would do the series. It's not a risk I'd take.

I *would* hesitate if there was no known contact and if it was unknown if the animal was rabid I would really really hesitate (and decide based on the animal's known behavior and what the contact was)

-Angela
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#12 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 11:36 PM
 
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We don't vax. I can't picture many situations in which we would vax. But there are two for which I would: A wound that was a TRUE risk for tetanus, I'd get the TIG. And being bitten by a known rabid animal or by one that we thought very well might have rabies. Neither situations are very likely, but both are possible, more so for us than for many other people (we're out in the boonies & definetly have racoons, foxes, opossums, etc around on a regular/constant basis). Unlikely? Yes. But if I (or DH, or DS1 or DS2) was bitten by an animal which we then were able to confirm did indeed have rabies, we would absolutely 100% do the series. If one of us was bitten by an animal which we thought had a good chance of having rabies, but which for some reason we weren't able to capture/kill/test, we would probably still dot he series. Rabies is a killer. Period. The series is indeed worth it.
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#13 of 70 Old 10-18-2009, 11:47 PM
 
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It is absolutely real and deadly. That is one vax I would do in a heartbeat if I or any of my family was bitten by even a suspected rabid animal. I have seen video's on tv or rabid animals it isnt pretty.

 
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#14 of 70 Old 10-19-2009, 12:16 AM
 
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I think it has to do with why you are not vaccinating.

Although I doubt many people have a 'pure' reason (as in, only one reason) some people don't vaccinate more for scientific reasons while others don't vaccinate for religious or philosophical reasons.

I lean towards the scientific one...so if I was bitten by a rabid animal I would get the series. AFAIK, there is the series, or death. That is not true for any other vaccine.

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#15 of 70 Old 10-19-2009, 12:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rayo de sol View Post

Why do we assume that the rabies vaccine is effective and a silver bullet to prevent a fatal disease if we don't view other vaccines that way?

I don't believe in the efficacy of big pharmas miracle drugs, so I don't believe in their rabies vaccine.

So, if their vaccine is worthless (or worse, since it causes harm), then how come more people don't die of rabies?
You make a very good point, Rayo.
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#16 of 70 Old 10-19-2009, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rayo de sol View Post
Why do we assume that the rabies vaccine is effective and a silver bullet to prevent a fatal disease if we don't view other vaccines that way?
Who's assuming? The way I see it, rabies is pretty much a death sentence, which leaves one with two viable options:

1. Go with the post-exposure prophylaxis therapy and hope for the best

2. Suffer horribly for weeks or months, awaiting the sweet relief of death


 

 

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#17 of 70 Old 10-19-2009, 03:00 PM
 
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Isn't there a difference between the rabies vax and the ones on the schedule? The ones on the schedule are all for prevention of catching diseases that you may or may not ever be exposed to or catch. And several of those diseases have benefits. And the vaxes may or may not work effectively. And most of those diseases aren't a big deal to otherwise healthy individuals.

Isn't rabies only given if you have been bitten by a rabid animal? And to my knowledge, there is no benefit of catching rabies, it is highly lethal to anyone, and that vax has been proven to be highly effective.
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#18 of 70 Old 10-19-2009, 10:02 PM
 
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Is post exposure Rabies treatment a vax or is it an IG?

I have a friend who is a vet tech and was offered the prophylactic rabies vaccine, but that was the same as other vaxes (to supposedly prevent infection)

But is it the same as what is given as treatment after exposure?

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Is post exposure Rabies treatment a vax or is it an IG?

I have a friend who is a vet tech and was offered the prophylactic rabies vaccine, but that was the same as other vaxes (to supposedly prevent infection)

But is it the same as what is given as treatment after exposure?
It's both. Post-exposure they give an IG and the vax.

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#20 of 70 Old 10-20-2009, 05:00 PM
 
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my reasoning

because there has only ever been one person to survive rabies without the vaccine in recent history.

While rabies isn't common and its not a "maditory" vaccines (here at least not sure about other area's), rabies themselve is deadly to animals and humans alike. Not only does it kill, but if I remember correctly it also makes a person crazy and its excrusiatingly painful too.
could you provide a reference for this claim?? Id be interested in learning more about this

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#21 of 70 Old 10-20-2009, 07:00 PM
 
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Not on that particular article on ********* but there is another one that says how can you really be sure that the rabies deaths were actually rabies---what if it was tetanus? Here is that article http://www.*********/v/ruesch.html Like how people assumed that people died from polio before the vaccine was invented (and not DDT poisoning or what ever other cause) but then after the polio vaccine was invented of course according to them people still dying could not have died from polio, it must have been meningitis or something else as the cause of death.

Weston A. Price Foundation comments on this http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxin...es_polio.html:

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The injection of purée of diseased brain tissue into the brains of dogs was the method preferred by Louis Pasteur to establish virus causation with rabies, another CNS disease. A recent, definitive biography of Pasteur finds him to be a most important publicist for germ theory, a crucial promoter for the notion that rabies is caused by a virus. Unfortunately, his rabies experiments were biased and unsupported by independent studies.
Basically that article is saying that polio and rabies aren't caused by a virus out in wild nature---they only caused those disease when injected in a laboratory.

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#22 of 70 Old 10-21-2009, 12:26 PM
 
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Isn't rabies only given if you have been bitten by a rabid animal?
NO, In PA I know people that have take the vac PRIOR to being bit because of their job. They had to jump thru hoops to get the health dept to give it. Both have not had adverse reactions to it.

 

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#23 of 70 Old 10-22-2009, 02:31 PM
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Yes rabies exists. HTH
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#25 of 70 Old 10-24-2009, 02:26 AM
 
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If myself or one of my children were bitten by a wild animal, i would get the gun, and kill it, and have it tested. and would have no guilt in doing so. no animal is more important than my babies. if it was found to be rabid, i would do the shots.
My mom was bitten by a cat a couple of years ago. It had attacked her completely unprovoked and when they found the owner they learned that he had found it as a stray a few years before and had never taken it to the vet. She asked her doctor about avoiding the vaccine by either keeping the cat quarantined and watching for symptoms or euthanizing and autopsy of the animal to determine whether it was infected. The doctor told her that they couldn't delay the vaccine long enough for the quarantine and that the rabies infection would only be evident in the cat's brain if the infection was advanced. Basically, it came down to the point that she had definitely been bitten by a cat with suspicious behaviour and she had to make a decision quickly because there was a small window of time in which to vaccinate. She did the vaccine. It wasn't in her stomach like I had always heard that it would be. It did hurt. It was multiple shots. SUPER expensive and the only place that did it was the local ER. She was obviously not a high priority in an emergency room so the wait was hours long for each shot. She didn't have any real side-effects other than pain at the injection site.
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#26 of 70 Old 10-24-2009, 02:46 AM
 
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Ummm yes. Either that or the racoon that was in my barn and foaming at the mouth was possessed by the devil.

(Dh shot it....my vet came and took it off to K-State and it WAS confirmed rabbid.)

So yes...rabies is very real and very dangerous.

 

 

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#27 of 70 Old 10-24-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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My mom was bitten by a cat a couple of years ago. It had attacked her completely unprovoked and when they found the owner they learned that he had found it as a stray a few years before and had never taken it to the vet. She asked her doctor about avoiding the vaccine by either keeping the cat quarantined and watching for symptoms or euthanizing and autopsy of the animal to determine whether it was infected. The doctor told her that they couldn't delay the vaccine long enough for the quarantine and that the rabies infection would only be evident in the cat's brain if the infection was advanced. Basically, it came down to the point that she had definitely been bitten by a cat with suspicious behaviour and she had to make a decision quickly because there was a small window of time in which to vaccinate. She did the vaccine. It wasn't in her stomach like I had always heard that it would be. It did hurt. It was multiple shots. SUPER expensive and the only place that did it was the local ER. She was obviously not a high priority in an emergency room so the wait was hours long for each shot. She didn't have any real side-effects other than pain at the injection site.
FWIW that's one of the cases it is unlikely I would vax. Domestic pets are unlikely carriers. Especially if it was still living as a pet, it's *incredibly* unlikely it was rabid. It being a stray years before has absolutely NO bearing- no way it could have had rabies for years.

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#28 of 70 Old 10-24-2009, 12:08 PM
 
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Rabies is very real. If you live in a rural area or even a semi-rural area you know it's real.

We have a reporting system here where all local vets are notified and it's announced on the news when rabid animals are found. Recently, in the past year, they have found quite a few rabid bats.

Dogs and cats can also catch rabies. My grandparents have had raccoons in their barn loft before that they've had to shoot because of erratic behavior and they have tested positive for rabies.

Just a couple months ago I was at the animal diagnostic center taking in one of my dead chickens for testing (to make sure I didn't have a disease in my flock) and a man was in there sobbing with the dead body of his dog. He had to shoot it because it ran off for a week then came home foaming at the mouth and acting crazy. He was bringing it in for testing to see if it had rabies. Here it is considered normal (and legal) to shoot any animal attacking your livestock as long as it's not a hawk because those are protected wildlife. It's also considered normal to shoot a dangerous/threatening/rabid animal...even if it's your own dog.

When I was a kid I was attacked by a stray cat. I was petting it, it was purring, then all of a sudden it ate my arm. I still have deep bite scars from my wrist up to my arm pit! Animal control had to take it away and euthanize it and test it for rabies, luckily it didn't have it. I had to get IV antibiotics for a major infection in my arm though. It was red and swollen for weeks.

I vaccinate my outdoor cat and my two dogs for rabies for two reasons. 1) Because I believe it's real, and we have raccoons and possums in our yard that could very well be rabid and bite one of my dogs when they are watching over my chickens. 2) For legal reasons, if one of my dogs or my cat bites someone I will be able to say they are vaccinated for rabies and we won't have the whole issue to go through of quarantine or kill.

My DD is not vaccinated and I feel strongly that vaccines are not the answer, but in the case of rabies (if she were bitten by a rabid animal) I would do it considering it's the only possible way to save her life. Obviously in that case the risks of the vaccine wouldn't even matter considering the other option is death!

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#29 of 70 Old 10-24-2009, 12:18 PM
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I'll tell the patient I cared for in 2002, who died of rabies, that it was all in his head.

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#30 of 70 Old 10-24-2009, 12:24 PM
 
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I'm an employee at my county animal control. I handle potentional rabid animals on a daily basis. I do not vaccinate my children, however, I did opt to have the rabies series as I'm exposed to rabies on a daily basis. Rabies is very real, and very serious.

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