A grateful thank you and a few questions - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 42 Old 06-05-2010, 04:18 PM
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I just wanted to add that for anyone looking for a ped. I have found our midwife to be a tremendous help in that regard. If you use a midwife, chances are she will at least be non-vax friendly and very likely know of a ped or two who feels the same way!
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#32 of 42 Old 06-05-2010, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Barbie64g View Post
"To be fair, quite a few things we ingest everyday are considered poisons . Also, nearly EVERYTHING is considered a poison in the right dosage. Too much water can kill you for example. Perhaps a bit semantic but, just this just stuck out in my head. "

To be fair, the things you speak of are not injected directly into the body, causing a outright assult on the bodies defense system.
Of course, I understand this point but it's not the full story pertaining to injection vs. ingestion in regards to which is safer. But, yes, I see your point.
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#33 of 42 Old 06-05-2010, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have been following this thread and just want to add a few things. I FULLY vaccinated my first 4 children according to schedule and felt like a great mom for doing so. I could never have told you what vaccines they got or what disease they were intended to prevent. I didn't have a clue. I just did it because you were supposed to. My first 3 kids had "normal" reactions like screaming, irritability, fever, slept for two full days (I used to love this part of them getting vaccinated, so I could get some housework done...crazy!!), etc. I never thought anything of it because my doctor told me it was normal. Well, when my 4th child got his 4 month shots, he had the same "normal" reactions, although he screamed longer than the others. A week later he started having head drops...basically lost head control. His head would be fine, then just drop down. I can't tell you how scary it is when your baby, who has been holding his head up normally, suddenly starts to not be able to hold his head up anymore and cries EVERY time his head drops down over and over again all day long! Other people noticed and asked if he hadn't developed head control yet. I took him to the doctor, who sent us to a pediatric neurologist. I asked if it could have been the vaccines and the answer was "NO". We had to have EEGs, Cat Scans, Mris, everything. They thought he was having seizures. They said he might not develop normally anymore and he would regress, basically they told me he would lose his smile! This broke my heart. I prayed and prayed for my son. He was still having this problem when he turned 6 months and they STILL wanted to vaccinate him. I said, "no". I could not believe that they wanted to vaccinate him when they had NO clue what was causing all of this. Anyway, I researched and decided to decline the heavy duty seizure medication they wanted to put him on (Tegretol). They never could prove he was having seizures, even with all their testing. I found and tried vitamin B6 in VERY large doses. It worked! His head drops stopped and every now and then we would have to up his dose because he would start having them again. Children's Hospital in New Orleans would not even consider that the B6 was helping him...they said it was a coincidence. I started researching vaccines and have never stopped. We eventually weaned him off the B6 and he never had another episode. He never regressed and is a healthy 8 yo boy now. Praise God!! He never had another vaccine and my 5th child who is almost 3 is vaccine free and has not had ear infections or sicknesses like my first 4 did when they were younger. Now, I have learned alot about nutrition and breastfed the 5th one for two years too! All this to say that what really concerned me was the pediatrician and pediatric neurologist's refusal to even consider vaccines as a possibility! I wonder how many children have neurological problems ( and yes, autism too) and the doctors never even consider the possibility of vaccines! It was very scary to me and especially that they wanted to vaccinate him again in the midst of all of this. I called Stephanie Cave's office ( author of What your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations) and her office told me I could have possibly saved my son's life by not vaccinating him again! The official diagnosis for my son's condition was "Developmental Glitch"! LOL! Seriously. I don't know if what happened to my son was caused by vaccines, but I sure don't know that it wasn't. I waited for an answer to what was happening to him and they couldn't tell me, but they could tell me it was most definitely NOT the vaccines! This is when my blind faith in doctors went out the window. PLUS the fact that they wanted to drug him up with anti seizure medication when there was nothing on the EEG that proved he was having seizures. They were not happy when I wanted to try vitamin B6, but I am so thankful that I researched and did not do everything they wanted. If I had, my son (at 4 months of age) would have been put on Tegretol and would have got a full load of vaccines at 6 months of age...dtap, hib, hep b, prevnar, ipv, etc. I shudder to think of what all this would have done to him!
WOW! Scary stuff and I'm sure an extremely tough situation.

Our daughter was thought to have hydrocephalus because her head was outside the norm for her age range the first 2 years. My entire family have big heads..... Our pediatrician was aware of this but still ordered a CT. She wanted to order it for a few days out but being as my wife is a CT radiographer...... it was done that hour....

Negative of course and finally the rest of her body caught up with her head. Now she falls in the middle of the developmental graph in terms of size. Still scared the $#%# our of us.

I can't imagine what you went through. Talk about dropping the bottom out of your soul......
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#34 of 42 Old 06-05-2010, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Everyone: My wife spoke with a coworker who recently had a son. She mentioned her satisfaction with another medical group and states that they are more open in regards to their policies. I'll be making contact with them this week. Wish us luck.
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#35 of 42 Old 06-07-2010, 12:13 PM
 
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I'm standing staunchly on the other side of the fence with the mentality: This is one of the biggest decisions in my child's life! How could I possibly make it without information?!?!?
I'm not suggesting you make it without information. It seemed as if you were saying you wanted to make it entirely based on scientific fact/merit without ANY emotion/intuition. What I advocate for is a balance, especially since the info part is so lacking. If this is not what you meant, sorry for misinterpreting.



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This, in my opinion, is an extremely poor excuse for what you are advocating. I mean that as an observation, not a judgment.
I'm not advocating anything. Simply making an observation myself that the scientific information/facts you seem to want to base your choice on is lacking, and I do not see it getiing any clearer anytime soon. Not vaccinating is the default IMO.


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I posted my observations, in my last post, on the first page. None of it is scientific, as I mentioned but there is a large number of anecdotal evidence, for example: Scores of children not dead or damaged. Now, I also stated and agreed with those who also stated, if you aren't looking for it, as in the case of most pediatricians simply ignoring the possibility of X because "they were vaccinated", the numbers become skewed. I understand this. However, one can not throw out, in it's entirety, that particular set of data. That itself is bad science. Understand that I'm not saying it's convincing, completely accurate, relevant or important, just........ that it's there and worth looking at in when considering the science.
Not dead yes, the damaged part is a bit trickier IMO for the reasons you we have covered (things not even consdiered to be vaccine realted will not be recognized as vaccine damage). The anecdotal stories go both ways as well.



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Can you provide the evidence that led you to this?
Am happy to provide you with all my info. PM me is interested



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Because the risks of the vaccines are still yet to be accurately defined within the basic scientific model, while I agree with you based on the limited knowledge I have, I can't fully commit this statement without real data. I understand the risks of every disease that is vaccinated against. That is available, relevant, unbiased and current. With JUST that data, I can accurately say: If the risks of vaccinations are greater than a very very very small percent, it's not going to be worth it. The problem is, we only have 1/2 the data!
I think there is plenty of info out there to support to position that vaccines cause damage, vaccines mess with the immune system, vaccines may not be safe. One just has to look for it. It's not out there in plain site like the other side's info. There is also a vast amount of information about the INGREDIENTS in the vaccines that indicate they are hazardous to one's health. Again....not vaccinating is the default.

Good luck with the new doc...keep us posted!

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#36 of 42 Old 06-07-2010, 01:07 PM
 
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FatherOf2 -- a bit off topic (I've really enjoyed reading this thread though) but...

You mentioned in your original post that you believe education happens at home, but will send your kids to school for "the greatest social experience available".

You seem a very intelligent fellow, and keen to the fact that we must research our options, look for the truth and not just blindly follow the status quo. You realized this with vaccinations during the H1N1 crisis, and started to question the standard argument that "vaccines are always safe and the only best option."

Might I gently and humbly suggest that the same applies to the argument that public school is great for socialization?

For your research purposes, I'd suggest starting with "Hold on to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers" by Mate. It is NOT an anti-school book at all, I think homeschooling is only mentioned once. What is IS about, is the dangers of the current social structure of which public school is a large part, whereby children becoming peer-oriented rather than adult-oriented, and all the negative consequences of this.

There are lots of reasons to send a child to school rather than homeschool, you're certainly free to make that choice... but IMO "better social experiences" is not one of those reasons.

Heather, mom to Caileigh 12/06 and aspie ADHD prodigy David 05/98 :intact lact
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#37 of 42 Old 06-07-2010, 03:47 PM
 
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This is an awesome thread!

I am glad you have some hope on the ped issue, we found ours by pure good luck. He does spout the stuff to us (CDC and all that) but otherwise leaves us be. While I was pregnant, we asked around, DH's chiro, our midwife practice (hospital based, but still). Even though we were absolutely certain about not vaxing, what we asked was: do you know any of these practices (midwives give you a list of ped's in the area) that are open to delayed or selective vax'ing? we figured, if the doc was at least willing to discuss, it was a ray of hope, and also lets us go the more peaceful route. Our midwife also suggested asking the nursery nurses, as they get these sorts of questions most frequently.

I tried asking on my tribe, but my area doesn't seem very active within the tribe. (I am in SC, and it seems mostly NC and TN moms at the moment)

For me, the decision was 2 fold. both educated and emotional. as was the decision to not circ our son. for both, it came down to, if there is doubt, then don't. I can no more take vaccines out of his body than put the foreskin back on. If he should choose later either of these options then that will be his choice.

as for the homeschooling: depending on your area, there are fantastic socializing options. In ours, the Zoo even has homeschool days, with kits and activities geared towards homeschooling groups. I was fully public schooled (but I had truly wonderful teachers, who were open minded - a rare thing I think) and my sister was home-schooled for several years. Through watching my mother homeschool my sister I learned that it is not as initmidating, or weird, as I thought it would be, and there are tons of advantages. That said, I think by the time my kids were high school age, I would let them choose to continue homeschool, or to do public school. I loved High School (personally, I know, not everyone's favorite 4 years).

wishing you and your family the best, and may you find much else of interest here on MDC! I even have my DH lurking! LOL

Katrina - Mama to Gabriel  sleepytime.gif 11/20/2009 and Norah vbac.gif 10/11/2011- married to Wayne - geek.gif novaxnocirc.gifbfinfant.giffamilybed1.gifcd.gif&nbspand now new baby Theodore born 3/11/13 vbac.gif

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#38 of 42 Old 06-08-2010, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by tankgirl73 View Post
FatherOf2 -- a bit off topic (I've really enjoyed reading this thread though) but...

You mentioned in your original post that you believe education happens at home, but will send your kids to school for "the greatest social experience available".

You seem a very intelligent fellow, and keen to the fact that we must research our options, look for the truth and not just blindly follow the status quo. You realized this with vaccinations during the H1N1 crisis, and started to question the standard argument that "vaccines are always safe and the only best option."

Might I gently and humbly suggest that the same applies to the argument that public school is great for socialization?

For your research purposes, I'd suggest starting with "Hold on to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers" by Mate. It is NOT an anti-school book at all, I think homeschooling is only mentioned once. What is IS about, is the dangers of the current social structure of which public school is a large part, whereby children becoming peer-oriented rather than adult-oriented, and all the negative consequences of this.

There are lots of reasons to send a child to school rather than homeschool, you're certainly free to make that choice... but IMO "better social experiences" is not one of those reasons.
I wasn't clear. I failed to expound on that topic as it wasn't the main one in this thread. Keeping it real short (a rarity for me): We are aware a dynamic balance is needed and we intend on be observant and vigilant in this regard. We've had many-a-talks about this subject.
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#39 of 42 Old 06-08-2010, 10:22 AM
 
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If anyone wishes to discuss schooling issues further, please start new threads in the appropriate forum so we can remain on-topic.
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#40 of 42 Old 06-08-2010, 11:01 AM
 
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I don't have time to write much but I just wanted to say, be open when it comes to doctors. We switched to a homeopath/MD about 6mos ago, and I had the same concerns as you, really hoped for a middle ground, but it was the best decision we ever made. He has a medical degree, he has sent both me & DS for medical tests (bloodwork, chest xray, etc.), he did once prescribe me a homeopathic solution but for the most part he hasn't pushed it on us. What he DOES do is spend a lot of time discussing things with us. He treats us as educated patients, not blind followers, and I can't even describe how awesome it is to have a real, informed, educated discussion with a doctor rather than "Here's your prescription, follow up in 2 weeks." (And he doesn't care if we vax, we don't but he would also be OK with us fully or partially vaxing). Soooo long-winded here but my point is, don't be afraid of the seemingly uber-crunchy docs out there... you might just find your middle ground. Post in Finding Your Tribe for specific recs in your area. Ask the doctors you call a few basic questions, like, How would you treat an ear infection... what if it doesn't respond to natural treatments?" etc.

Co-sleeping is really wonderful when your child actually SLEEPS!! familybed1.gif
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#41 of 42 Old 06-11-2010, 08:43 PM
 
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I don't know why I keep having this thought but I've been having it a while and the thought was stimulated by this thread, so I've come back here to say it.

I think I'm a little different than many others here in that I haven't really made up my mind whether vaccines are good or bad public policy. I have only made up my mind that they are a bad personal policy for my children. I believe the risks presented by injecting them with vaccines is greater than the risk of contracting a "VPD" and subsequent risk of death or serious injury from the disease.

Of course, that analysis depends greatly on the low incidence of disease here. So... when pro-vaxers accuse me of "riding on their herd immunity" -- well, I confess that I think I might be, in part.

I guess I felt like the OP was in some way maybe grappling with the same question--do vaccines work and are they therefore a good idea from a public policy standpoint, even if a few children get sacrificed along the way. JMHO but I think they work, some more, some less, depending on which one it is. I don't think they are singlehandedly responsible for the decline in the various diseases, but I also don't think they do absolutely nothing. I think they just do a lot less than what people think they do, and I think they do more harm than people think they do, and I think they have the potential for doing additional harm that we are not currently aware of.

And I guess I just wanted to say that in the end, I decided it didn't matter if vaccines worked or not, if they were good public policy or not, if I should take my fair share of responsibility for the greater good (and I think it bears repeating that I have not decided if there is a greater good). When I became a parent, that went out the window for me. I've become selfish and I only care about my own kids. They have next to no chance of coming down with diptheria, so why should I risk DTaP, and so on.

OP: When I did my research, I found the CDC pink book and MMWR surveillance reports to be the greatest help and extremely interesting sources of info on the actual incidence of each disease in the US.

Poppan ~ twins born April 2007
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#42 of 42 Old 06-11-2010, 11:14 PM
 
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Just to cheer you up the teensiest bit...

The vaccine against diphtheria was working fine in Haiti, no diphtheria, until several months after the earthquake, when the vaccine seems to have stopped working against the disease. Of course the inadequate water, food, sanitation and housing might have played a role in the outbreak. What do you think?

Oddly, the same thing seems to have happened in Russia, although it has never been acknowledged. Societal breakdown = diphtheria outbreak.

So you really are okay not vaxing your children against diphtheria. Because millions of people whose vaccines are quite worn off have been exposed to this disease as people in Europe traveled back and forth to Russia and Russians traveled to Europe. People in Russia living with inadequate food and sanitation would get ill, even with vaccinations, people in Europe with decent living conditions didn't get ill, even if they hadn't had a booster vaccine in 40 years. The one exception seems to be people who went to Russia and dallied with lots and lots of prostitutes and then came back and got sick. But maybe they weren't paying attention to cleanliness and nutrition, being distracted by that evil distractor...

The evidence that the dip vaccine is what saved us from this disease is quite feeble.
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