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#1 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi there! This is my first time ever posting to any website like this so bare with me !

So right now I have a 16 month old daughter who is 100% non-vaxed and I am also expecting my second daughter Sept 2nd! I guess I have so many different feelings on whether to delay vax's or not do them at all. It seems like no one supports me except for my husband, who is even a little unsure why we aren't doing it, and my Mom. I recently moved to a new city and was lectured for about 45 mins when I took my daughter in to see her new pediatrician and I told her she had no shot record. All she talked about was death and pretty much that I was being an awful parent for not vaccinating my child, then proceeded to tell me she wouldn't treat my daughter because, "she was a danger to all of the other kids in the practice". I feel in my heart that if anything I'm protecting my daughter by not shooting her up with all of these things that I don't even know what are! On the other hand though I want to do what's best for my baby and with another one on the way I guess I've just started doubting myself. I really don't know much about if delaying them makes it better, and if so how long do you delay them? Or should I even get them at all? I'm just really confused about the whole thing! If you have any advice I would really appreciate it!
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#2 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 09:12 AM
 
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to MDC!

Why don't you tell us what makes you hesitate? What about vaxing scares you? Do you have any unresolved questions? You say you don't know what the vax ingredients are...do you not know the names of the chemicals or do you just not understand anything about them? We can help with that.

Good for you for not caving to the ped's scare tactics! I have an almost fully vaxed 15yo and a completely unvaxed 8yo. I have been booted from many practices, but I think I have finally found an MD who is on the same page with me. They're out there, you just have to look a little harder to find them. You can post in your Tribal Area for doctor recommendations.

Well, give us some specifics and we'd be glad to help!


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#3 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 09:27 AM
 
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I, too, am questioning my decision right now. I have a well-child appointment today for my almost 4 year old and almost 7 year old. We don't normally do well-child appointments but we recently discovered what we think is an inguinal hernia so he needs checked out and my daughter hasn't been to the doctor since she was 4 months old... My son was fully immunized until he was 3, my daughter until she was 4 months.... He was sick ALL the time when he was little. My daughter has never once been sick so she just has never needed to go to the doctor for any reason. I am now freaking out about whether I should allow them to catch them up on immunizations, allow a few or continue refusing. I am at a complete loss and I KNOW that I am going to deal with the bullcrap that comes with refusing with my Dr. She does not support that choice AT ALL and one of her nurses bullied me into the point of crying when my son was 3 and allowing him to get 4 shots at one visit. I know that I won't let that happen again as I am a stronger parent now and will stand up for them ... but I still don't handle conflict all that well. My husband is going with me today so hopefully he will help but I don't know how much I can count on that as he is pretty much goes along with whatever I decide.

Anyway, I am leaning towards allowing a few of them (probably polio and DTaP) but refusing the rest although both have already had a few of the entire series... Perhaps I will allow MMR as well but I am really on the fence for that one. Varicella, we will do at 12 years of age if they have not contracted chicken pox by then. Hep B, I may allow also as they become older but at the age my children are, I don't really find it necessary. I encourage you to learn about each vaccine, what it protects against, what the risks of the disease vs. the vaccine are and then decide. Fortunately, in my state I am able to pick and choose because we have the option of a philosophical exemption (the only thing I love about Ohio, I think) My children attend public school and we have had NO problem what-so-ever in our exemption status with them... just our Dr. I wish I had more advice for you but ultimately, it's up to you on what you feel comfortable with. You will get extreme advice on both sides of the issue as people feel very strongly about what side they are on. Me, personally, I don't believe it has to be all or nothing. I think you can do what you feel comfortable with and stand strong in your own decisions for your children. The truth is, both sides have risks and you have to decide which ones you are comfortable with. Good luck and congratulations!

Jeri, Natural lovin' Mama to Elijah (9.29.03), Eden (10.2.06), and a little one lost along the way (1/12)., Step-monster to Shelby (18) and Stephen (16). Celebrating 12 years together with my soul-mate, Eric. Hoping for a rainbow1284.gif someday! 
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#4 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 10:47 AM
 
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Here are some questions to answer for yourself in deciding about vax.

1. Name of the disease
2. Description of the disease
3. Length of time from initial infection to end of all symptoms
4. Infectious period
5. Normal symptoms of the disease
6. Known serious consequences of the disease
7. Proportion of persons infected developing serious consequences
8. Transmission route of the disease
9. Prevalence of the disease
10. Treatments of the disease and efficacy of those treatments
11. Relevant research about the disease
12. Name of the vaccine
13. Company that makes the vaccine
14. Contents of the vaccine
14A. The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
15. History of development of the vaccine
16. Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
17. Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
18. Relevant research into the vaccine
19. How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
20.What is the vaccine meant to do? (Vaccines may not prevent infection or transmission).
21.Number of cases reported each year.
22.Number of deaths reported each year from the vaccine and natural disease.

Here are some sources to help you out:

Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The Choices 1/18DVD, By Sherri J. TENPENNY


http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html (download the current issue)
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...k-chapters.htm
http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

Health Sentinel Graphs

WHO GRAPH

Vaccine Injury Table


Beyond Conformity Resources Page
Do you have a quick-fire summary?

Inside Vaccines

Mothering: Ending the War on Disease
http://www.mothering.com/health/heal...m-just-growing


"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#5 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 11:19 AM
 
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Lauren, you should do what feels right to you. There are many pointers given in this forum, like Emmeline's list for example. We made such a list and read endless hours on PubMed and the Cochrane database, I also have excess to many more articles since my sister is a MD and she can help me with that. Don't worry about reading such articles and then your ped telling you that you are not qualified - that is very untrue. The scientific method is the same in any science and if you don't know a term, that's why we have Webster (I havent' had a ped telling me, but an obgyn told me I better do what she wants and stop reading cause obviously I am too dumb, since my MA is not in MD, and my MD sister is not an obgyn so she better shove it too).
The pediatrician you met is rude and out of line. Do not go back. You need to find a practitioner who realizes it is a parental choice to vaccinate or not, and who will not pester you about it. I really do not understand American pediatricians and their God complex. Back home in Europe if the parents say no, we leave it at that and move on. We also incorporate homeopathics and try to avoid antibiotics (just recently my 12 months old nephew had bronchitis and the ped did not give antibiotics but natural remedies and it helped greatly). I'm sorry to put out that comparison, but it gets more blatantly obvious to me every day: a patient/parent in the US is a little soldier who better follows orders, doesn't ask questions and never ever doubts Mr. Doctor! There is no partner relationship as I am used to it. And for that ped saying your healthy child is endangering other children, ha is all I can say. If vaccines work so wonderfully, why should the ped be worried?! Plus you brought in a healthy child, absolutely no harm. I stopped seeing a peds and now we see FPs, I was sick of doing WBVs with so many sick kids around (at my ped back home we have separate waiting rooms for healthy and sick kids), and then all I get is bad, bad advice (like cry it out, you have to circumsize, feed solids at 4 months, stop that breastfeeding already at 6 months and so on).
We personally decided to delay at least until 2 years, not only for the studies we have read (efficacy, etc) but also due to personal family history with vaccines (we have several officially acknowledged vaccine reactions in the family, entailed hospitalization and one death, I had no idea until I asked my parents about it, that is why I never received more than 3 DTPs, I count as medically exempted from it due to severe reactions, had no idea since my medical records showed more until recently my parents brought over the rest of the records and I read it - I can get DT, but not the P or aP portion). There are many things we crossed off the list easily (chickenpox, rota, HPV, HepB, HepA, mumps, rubella, Prevnar) and basically don't consider anything but DTaP and measles (available to us as single dose back home in Europe and the only thing I ever got as a kid, oh and polio, but that we would only do if we travel to one of the countries where it is endemic or where they use OPV as shedding occurs from that)... We might also opt for the Tetanus only vaccine instead of DTaP as available in Europe as well (mercury free, approved for infant and adult use). There are much more choices for us luckily.
My MD sister did most shots as she freely admits she is too scared of diseases, but she did a delayed schedule as well as she knew her breastfed baby with whom she stayed at home has better protection as an infant then the bottlefed baby in daycare. She mainly is scared of bringing something home from the hospital, though it never occurred (she doesn't do chickenpox, HepA, flu and swine flu). We do not have any issues with our decisions and equally respect them and she acknowledges that our decision is well-made and not nuts. She knows that vaccines are not immunizations (I hate this term here, in our family many vaccines never provided titers!). A vaccine is a medication that can have serious side effects that may or may not provide temporary antibodies to certain diseases or toxoids (like pertussis, the vaccine does not vaccinate against the bacteria but rather its toxoid). Hence the term immunization is completely misleading and irrelevant. Too many parents think oh my kid is immunized so no, it cannot be mumps/chickenpox/pertussis yet they totally have it and happily spread it around instead of staying at home.
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#6 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LaurenH10 View Post
Hi there! This is my first time ever posting to any website like this so bare with me !

So right now I have a 16 month old daughter who is 100% non-vaxed and I am also expecting my second daughter Sept 2nd! I guess I have so many different feelings on whether to delay vax's or not do them at all. It seems like no one supports me except for my husband, who is even a little unsure why we aren't doing it, and my Mom. I recently moved to a new city and was lectured for about 45 mins when I took my daughter in to see her new pediatrician and I told her she had no shot record. All she talked about was death and pretty much that I was being an awful parent for not vaccinating my child, then proceeded to tell me she wouldn't treat my daughter because, "she was a danger to all of the other kids in the practice". I feel in my heart that if anything I'm protecting my daughter by not shooting her up with all of these things that I don't even know what are! On the other hand though I want to do what's best for my baby and with another one on the way I guess I've just started doubting myself. I really don't know much about if delaying them makes it better, and if so how long do you delay them? Or should I even get them at all? I'm just really confused about the whole thing! If you have any advice I would really appreciate it!
Research, research, and research some more until you can come to a decision you're comfortable with. No one can make this decision for you, which is good, because no one but you (and your family) will have to live with the consequences of that decision. People who pressure you to vaccinate will vanish into smoke should your child be injured by a vaccine, and people who tell you not to vaccinate won't be around to help you out should your child contract a vaccine-available disease. It really has to be your decision.

Emmeline's list is a great place to start, and there are many books available to parents who are questioning vaccines and vaccine-available diseases. Check out this thread for a good list of resources, including book titles and exemption forms by state.

Keep in mind that you can always vaccinate at a later date, but you can never take back a vaccine once it's been given. So until you're completely comfortable with a specific vaccine (its purported benefits, its ingredients, its known adverse reactions and potential side effects, and the severity and frequency of the disease it's supposed to prevent), there's no reason not to delay until you know more about it.

Finally, that pediatrician did you a favor by refusing to see your daughter as a patient. There are plenty of doctors out there who will respect your choice not to vaccinate (or selectively vaccinate, or delay, or whatever you decide) without treating you like an idiot or a bad mother. I'm sorry you had such a nasty experience; you'll find plenty of other mamas here who have been through something similar. Her behavior was rude and inappropriate but not, I'm sorry to say, uncommon. You might consider seeing a family practitioner instead of a pediatrician, as they tend to be less pushy about rigidly following the current vaccine schedule.

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When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. --George Bernard Shaw

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#7 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 11:41 AM
 
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My decision and philosophy, in a nutshell, is "I would rather treat a sick child then injure a healthy one."

My stance is the human race has survived these diseases for 1000s of years WITHOUT vaccines. With proper nutrition, excersise, good hygene, proper wound care, HEALTHY immune systems, and modern medicine (the kind that can TREAT diseases, not claim to prevent them) I really dont see any reason to take the chance of damaging my children with toxins and live viruses that may or may not prevent them from getting diseases that they have almost a 100% chance of recovering from if they catch them.

I was on the fence for a long time. And then one day, I was at peace with all of it. I can't put it into words, it just clicked in my head and my heart.

Dont get me wrong, I read like its no ones business. Both sides, I tried to make my decision as unbaised as possible (That is very hard to do) I decided to make peace with NOT vaccinating them until I felt sure one way or the other, and then I just felt at ease with never vaccinating them by my own choice. If one day THEY want to make that decision, fine. I liken it to how most feel about circing. It is their bodies, let them change it when they can make the decision for themselves one day.
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#8 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 11:46 AM
 
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OP, I apologize that your doctor berated you at your appointment. Honestly, you should seek a real professional who respects your choices as a parent. Vaccinations are a medical procedure and involve many risks and probably many unknown risks. Please, don't make a split hair decision because someone insulted you. Many parents here have experienced this, including myself, but I know that their arguments could not persuade me to do otherwise. I have done my research.

The CDC Pink book is a good place to go if you feel concerned about the rate of disease. Then, you can compare the numbers with VAERS. I believe someone mentioned in a previous thread that more people die of adverse events than all the infectious disease cases combined.

But instead of debating I think it would be important for you to look at the severity of each VAD. Many of them can be treated at home like a mother would normally do for her sick child. As a matter of fact, my husband had measles and mumps as a child and my mother-in-law did nothing special. She said that they were playing like usual and that she had to force them to rest. And guess what? Both of them were vaccinated and still contracted the full blown cases.

Just until here recently the vaccine proponents always claimed vaccines prevented disease transmission. Now, they're backtracking by claiming it will give you milder symptoms if you do contract the disease. So, you take all those risks associated with this medical procedure (including death) and it's very possible that you'll receive little or even NO benefit.

Either way, it's your decision, but I would say search your heart. Do you really think it's normal to inject a healthy baby with mycoplasma, bacterias and viruses (from the cultuvation source, too) heavy metals, aborted fetal tissues, formalin, yeast, soy, peanut, and animal DNA? I think browsing through that ingredient list on the CDC website then looking at what they can actually DO to your health is a pretty compelling piece. When in doubt, do more research.

Check out Dr. Sherri Tenpenny's video Vaccines: The Risks, the Benefits, & the Choices. You can find that on Google video.

Here's the CDC website with the vaccine ingredients. It's a PDF format toward the middle of the page. You can also find the Pink Book to research the infectious disease rate for comparison with vaccine complications/adverse events.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

There's are several links on the blog that will lead you to some good information.
http://vaccinesexposed.blogspot.com/

This was an interesting article that had some usurps from a Reuters article on the coming Flu vaccine.
http://www.naturalnews.com/029334_fl..._seizures.html

A Doctor talking about the arrogance of other doctors. Who would have thought?
http://www.naturalnews.com/029350_doctors_patients.html


I hope this helps.
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#9 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 12:10 PM
 
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First thing I'd do is find a new Dr. I woudn't tolerate that kind of treatment.
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#10 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 12:30 PM
 
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feel in my heart that if anything I'm protecting my daughter by not shooting her up with all of these things that I don't even know what are!
Education, education, education. Make you decision to vax or not based on research, education and facts. If you don't know what's even in the vaccine, I don't think you can make a really final decision on whether or not the vaccine poses more risks than the disease it's for. Not vax-ing because you are afraid of ingredients you don't know about is basically the same thing as vax-ing because you fear the risks of a disease you don't fully understand. Yes, if you aren't sure, don't vax until you are, but if you aren't sure, do all the research to make a well infomed decision.
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#11 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 01:43 PM
 
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Oh man, that really must have hurt. Was it your first experience like that?

I have a great Naturapathic family practitioner who does not vaccinate her own child. My last one had one "pet" vaccine which was the dtap. I then tried a "homeopathic" pediatrician who's "pet" vaccines were Hib and Prevnar (I actually lol'd at those being the most important). I was trying to find a new pediatrician when I decided to try the homeopathic pediatrician. I was asked to sign the waiver, except she put in Hib and Prevnar since she didn't advise the other vaccines. I told her it was offensive, but ended up signing it just to get done quickly and leave.

You could visit several pediatricians and get all kinds of different advice. My first experience with not vaccinating on schedule came from the "mainstream" pediatrician that came to me in the hospital when my daughter was born. I could tell she didn't want to do the hep b, but I didn't know why. When I asked her about the vaccine, she said "we can do that next week." Anytime I asked about a vaccine, she'd say "we can do that on the next visit." Always pushing it off. I could feel that she didn't want to do them, but she never told me that, just pushed it off as soon as I asked a question. I moved before I really figured out that she was against them. But she started me onto the path of questioning vaccinations.

The more I hear about Doctors getting money from pharma and pharma paying Medical university's (Harvard to be exact) professors to push their products and pharma's faking research and getting it published in "respectable" places, conflicts of interest in the CDC, Merck hiring the former head of the CDC and paying her millions, the more I'm assured that I've made the right decision to opt out. That kind of business has no place in my child's body. Even if you forget about vaccine ingredients for a moment. Forget about monkey kidney, "bovine serum" heavy metals, pig viruses and contaminants, the business side alone is pretty scary.

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#12 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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You have to look at all of the information at your disposal and make the decision that you personally feel is best for your family. It's hard because there's a lot of conflicting information out there, but ultimately only you determine what is right for your kids.

That said, I would never go back to that doctor again no matter what you decide. My best friend is a pediatrician (an excellent one, IMO) who fully vaxes her own kids on schedule, but would never treat a parent that way. I would seek out a doc who's a better fit for you and is willing to work with you and do what you believe is best for your kids.
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#13 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 02:18 PM
 
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The more I hear about Doctors getting money from pharma and pharma paying Medical university's (Harvard to be exact) professors to push their products and pharma's faking research and getting it published in "respectable" places, conflicts of interest in the CDC, Merck hiring the former head of the CDC and paying her millions, the more I'm assured that I've made the right decision to opt out. That kind of business has no place in my child's body. Even if you forget about vaccine ingredients for a moment. Forget about monkey kidney, "bovine serum" heavy metals, pig viruses and contaminants, the business side alone is pretty scary.
Yea, we didn't even touch base on the conflict of interest here aside from Mr. Offit. I think I could list more than a hand full of so-called "independent researchers" and "health officials" who have financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
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#14 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 02:24 PM
 
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I gathered this for a different thread, but thought you'd enjoy these too. I hope you feel better and start calling around for a new doctor. It's worth a drive to find a great one.

Harvard students protest pharma paying professors
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/bu.../03pfizer.html

Merck hires former head of cdc
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009...ng_to_run.html

Conflicts of interest with the cdc and vaccines
(It's Fox, but with lots of sources)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219538,00.html

Vaccine ingredients
http://www.knowvaccines.com/vaccineingredients.htm

http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/ingredie.html

Explaining how doctors get paid to push vaccines (P4P benefits)
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Making...me-a0146424666

Pharmaceutical companies faking research and publishing it in their own fake peer review journal
http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/55679/

Here's one saying that smart people don't vaccinate (ok, that's not really what it says, but it's pretty interesting) Make sure to read the comments
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/in...snt-vaccinate/

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#15 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 02:44 PM
 
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Here's one saying that smart people don't vaccinate (ok, that's not really what it says, but it's pretty interesting) Make sure to read the comments
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/in...snt-vaccinate/
That link didn't work for me but I found the post you're looking for:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/in...snt-vaccinate/

Quote:
As compared with the undervaccinated children, the unvaccinated children were more likely to be male, to be white, to belong to households with higher income, to have a married mother with a college education, and to live with four or more other children. Other studies have shown that children who are unvaccinated are likely to belong to families that intentionally refuse vaccines, whereas children who are undervaccinated are likely to have missed some vaccinations because of factors related to the health care system or sociodemographic characteristics.
I guess that kind of dispels the myth that vaccine-free families are all uneducated hillbillies who just don't know any better...

And yes, the comments are priceless.

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#16 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just wanted to say thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post! It's very nice knowing that I'm not the only one out there! I wrote this post very late last night, so I apologize for it's lack of info about my situation! I just wanted to say I have been researching like a crazy lady so I'm not completely ignorant as my last post sounded haha I'm currently a stay at home Mom and also breastfed for 8 months and I plan on trying for the full 12 months once my 2nd LO is born! *wish me luck :-)*! I am totally with you guys on never going back to that ped again! I'm currently researching docs in the area that won't put me through that again! I guess my main concern is not that my child is the one putting everyone else at risk, but that the others are putting mine at risk! I have been avoiding large play groups and I am always thinking in the back of my head, "hmmm I wonder if this child that is all over my child has just been given shots!", then I worry my LO is at risk! I love the response you gave Barbie64g! That is how I feel! I also love the idea of the homeopathic pediatrician! I will have to research and see if we have any of those around our area! I am going to go through all of these links that were posted and research more! I feel the more I do the more I am totally shocked that I was given such a hard time about not vaccinating! I think I just need to print all of this out and the next time someone questions me handing them the book and saying "READ THIS and then come back and we'll talk!" :-P
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#17 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LaurenH10 View Post
I guess my main concern is not that my child is the one putting everyone else at risk, but that the others are putting mine at risk! I have been avoiding large play groups and I am always thinking in the back of my head, "hmmm I wonder if this child that is all over my child has just been given shots!", then I worry my LO is at risk! :-P
I think another child with a hacking cough is scary whether or not your child is vaxed. While my 6 vaxed nieces and nephews practically have frequent flyer miles from going to the doctor, my 6 year old had only 1 sick visit before K and my 4yo has never had a sick visit.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#18 of 19 Old 08-04-2010, 10:58 PM
 
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I have removed several posts from this thread which were either not consistent with the intended purpose and guidelines for this subforum or were responding to such posts. Please keep in mind that this is not the appropriate place to discuss the merits of vaccines or to debate vaccination.
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#19 of 19 Old 08-05-2010, 12:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenH10 View Post
I guess my main concern is not that my child is the one putting everyone else at risk, but that the others are putting mine at risk! I have been avoiding large play groups and I am always thinking in the back of my head, "hmmm I wonder if this child that is all over my child has just been given shots!", then I worry my LO is at risk!
I know, right? The only time I know of that my child has ever been exposed to pertussis was when she was around her infant cousin who developed pertussis after being vaxed for it.
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