Okay Non-Vaxxing Mom's, I am ready.... - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 21 Old 09-04-2010, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My daughter is now a little over two years old and I am still resisting all vaccinations. My gut tells me you can't un-ring a bell. I am not really worried about Pertussis (since she is no longer an infant) would never give the chicken pox or Hep B ( I personally had all three hep shots in college and have no titers for it whatsoever, what a waste). However, what keeps me up at night is HIB meningitis and down the road, the other Meningitis vaccine. These infections are the only ones that scare me, because they come on so fast and can cause permanent brain damage and for the latter, amputations and blood infections. I am not doing Prevnar, no way, but I do find myself scared of HIB and other meningitis bacteria. I also feel nervous about Polio because I live in a city where there is a massive population of African immigrants (where Polio hasn't been fully eradicated). However, the monkey kidney factor keeps me continuously nauseated. Please give me some advice, scholar articles, etc....
Thank you!
fyi: my daughter is still breastfeeding and while she does attend some toddler activities and preschool next year, she is not in daycare.
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#2 of 21 Old 09-04-2010, 08:02 PM
 
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I gave my previously unvaxed ds Hib for exactly the same reasons you mention. He had no reaction and it's one less thing to worry about. Yeah, I know about serotype replacement. I know there are other strains of meningitis out there. But I don't regret it. For me, not vaccinating isn't an all or nothing proposition. It comes down to carefully weighing what you are comfortable with.
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#3 of 21 Old 09-04-2010, 08:30 PM
 
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Most likely you didn't have those vaxes- did you ever worry? Ever have any friends sick? Were your parents up at night worried?

Why not prevnar? For me Hib and prevnar fell in the same category- just curious why you would rule out one but consider the other.

-Angela
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#4 of 21 Old 09-04-2010, 09:04 PM
 
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If you look you will find studies on how breastfeeding protects against HiB well into childhood. I would read those, you may feel better.

Me(33), Mama to a crazy DD (6), Wife to a wonderful mountain man(32) BF my babe for 2 years.
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#5 of 21 Old 09-04-2010, 10:02 PM
 
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We don't vaccinate because, as is oft-repeated around here, I'd rather treat a sick child than injure a healthy one. The risk of my breast-fed, healthy child sustaining permanent injury or dying from a vaccine-available disease seems to be far less likely than the risk of a vaccine injuring him permanently.

Whatever you decide, you're an awesome mama for taking charge of your child's health and questioning vaccines. Too many people don't give it a second thought.

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#6 of 21 Old 09-04-2010, 11:51 PM
 
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The links between breastfeeding and Hib really reassured me, and the fact that it wasn't something we even heard about or our parents even really worried about until there was a vaccine for it.

Wife to DH, Mom to my Intact Boys DS1: Born 02 Pain Med Free Hospital Birth, BF'ed for 9 Months, Partially Vax'd DS2: Born 06 via UC, BF'ed 3 years 10 months, and UnVax'd
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#7 of 21 Old 09-05-2010, 10:21 AM
 
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The links between breastfeeding and Hib really reassured me, and the fact that it wasn't something we even heard about or our parents even really worried about until there was a vaccine for it.
When I was a child I would see posters of rainbow teddy bears that said something about protecting your child from HiB. HiB wasn't available when I was of age to received it and I didn't even find out what it was until I was an adult.

Extended breastfeeding is excellent protection. There is a increased vulnerability to HiB post vaccination; I think the time period was about 6 weeks. There is also an association between the HiB vaccine and type-1 diabetes in children; this link talks about it but I can't access the full article http://www.bmj.com/content/319/7217/1133.1.extract.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#8 of 21 Old 09-05-2010, 09:13 PM
 
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At two years old, her risk for Hib is a lot lower than it was when she was an infant...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1051281

Still breastfeeding and not in childcare reduces her risk as well.

There are lots of Hib papers online where you can see that invasive disease seems to peak between 6-11 months of age. And there are other risk factors (smoking in the home etc.) that can be avoided.

Mother to DD#1  s/b @40w 2003 for unknown reasons; DD#2   9.5 years old; DS  6 years old 
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#9 of 21 Old 09-05-2010, 11:04 PM
 
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I had a "homeopathic" ped suggest the hib to me for my last baby. I looked into it and my children don't fit the profile for the "at risk" group at all, so I skipped it. It's been awhile, but if your child is healthy and breastfed, he/she is at a really low risk for that disease. Since it's very rare and my children aren't even in the "risk" group, I couldn't justify it.

If your baby goes to daycare, is formula-fed, pre-mature or otherwise sickly, then maybe it's a good thing to get it.

It's not a highly re-active vaccine from what I've read, so either way, you're ok. Look into the injuries from that particular vaccine and see if you find much. I remember someone here last year who's child got it within a week from getting the vaccine, but I don't recall if it was a vaccine induced disease or a freak coincidence.

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#10 of 21 Old 09-05-2010, 11:08 PM
 
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I found that thread I mentioned.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...gitis+daughter

Our children make a study of us in a way no one else ever will.  If we don't act according to our values, they will know.~Starhawk Rainbow.gif  New  User Agreement! http://www.mothering.com/community/wiki/user-agreement

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#11 of 21 Old 09-06-2010, 08:41 PM
 
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My son is 3 and unvaxed and I feel comfortable about handling most of the vads except meningitis. This is the one, like you, that can keep me up at night. I just find comfort in the fact that I breastfed him for 2 years and try to feed him nutritious foods. I also feel like I know the symptoms pretty well and would get him to the hospital quickly if I felt like he might have it.

Every time I think of getting him the vaccine, I realize that I wouldn't have peace of mind against meningitis because there are many other illnesses that can cause meningitis including hia and hif and many other pneumoccocal strains as well. I feel like I would just be throwing off the natural balance in his body. I would by lying, though, if I said I still didn't have some concerns about not vaccinating against this. I have just read of some moms who said it was this one shot that changed their baby, etc. I just don't have a peace either way on this one, really. So I pray for him and try hard to boost his immune system and get plenty of sunshine and rest, etc. Please let us know what you decide.

~Stacey
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#12 of 21 Old 09-06-2010, 08:55 PM
 
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I understand still questioning vaccines... ds1 is 3.5 now and I'm starting to seriously consider getting him the DT vax (not the DTP or DTap, just the DT), for the T portion. Mostly cause' we live out in the woods, go barefoot, have animals and because there *ARE* random old rusty fence posts/fence lines/etc to step on - I know. I've stepped on them I'm not too worried about the HIB/meningitus though, cause' theres jsut no point, IMO. Theres too many strains of bacteria that can and do cause meningitius out there. I'd be really no less worried if we got HiB, pnuemocccola, etc. I really wouldn't be. So I try not to stress. Good luck!!
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#13 of 21 Old 09-06-2010, 09:51 PM
 
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I understand still questioning vaccines... ds1 is 3.5 now and I'm starting to seriously consider getting him the DT vax (not the DTP or DTap, just the DT), for the T portion. Mostly cause' we live out in the woods, go barefoot, have animals and because there *ARE* random old rusty fence posts/fence lines/etc to step on - I know. I've stepped on them I'm not too worried about the HIB/meningitus though, cause' theres jsut no point, IMO. Theres too many strains of bacteria that can and do cause meningitius out there. I'd be really no less worried if we got HiB, pnuemocccola, etc. I really wouldn't be. So I try not to stress. Good luck!!
This is so true. I still feel insecure about the decision from time to time. I actually made an appt. for the dtap vaccine for my youngest a few weeks ago. One of my friends had a horrid cough and I kind of freaked out and called to make the appointment. I called a non-vaxxing friend and she talked me down and I cancelled the appt. I'm pretty relaxed, generally, but the news reports and my friends cough got to me.

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#14 of 21 Old 09-07-2010, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
Most likely you didn't have those vaxes- did you ever worry? Ever have any friends sick? Were your parents up at night worried?

Why not prevnar? For me Hib and prevnar fell in the same category- just curious why you would rule out one but consider the other.

-Angela
Hi Angela,

In response to your inquiry of why hib and not prevnar, I read that Hib is pure and there aren't many additonal ingredients. At least, the ActHib brand has no aluminum or other metals/adjuvents/animal products. I have heard it is not very reactive and at least, I haven't heard of many reactions on this site to hib. However, even my Ped. told me that while she recommends Prevnar, it causes alot more reactions, fevers, seizures and there seems to be a host of side effects I am uncomfortable with. In addition, it contains 13 strains of PC and I think that is way too much, whereas Hib only contains the hib culture.
Angela, maybe I am misinformed on this issue, I know that Prevnar is supposed to protect against some meningitis infections but its primary purpose is ear infections and pnemonia's. Am I wrong? I have heard that while Hib infection is very rare, it can cause severe life long disabilities. That is why Hib is the one I am on the fence about.
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#15 of 21 Old 09-07-2010, 03:25 PM
 
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Lisa - The risk of HIB peaks between 6 and 11 months of age. While prevaccine era it was the most common under age 5, risk decreases considerably after age 1.

Your LO is breastfed still and doesn't attend daycare, further lowering her risk. IMO I would not bother. I have an unvaxed 28 month old DS. This vaccine was the only one I considered as DS is in daycare and has been since he was 3 months old, but at the end of the day, I firmly believe that vaccines damage the immune system and can have unforseen consequences, including the HIB vaccine. If you want to vax for peace of mind, I don't see how getting the HIB vax will give you that since there are 90 strains of bacteria that can lead to meningitis. The mass use of the HIB vaccine paved the way for the increase in other strains, thus the reason for Prevnar 7 and now prevnar 13. Just wait....other strains will become more virulent and there will be need to add more strains to the vaccine and next we will have prevnar 20 and so on and so forth.

Quote:
“…our results suggest that following the disappearance of invasive Hib disease in children bacteraemic pneumococcal infections have increased. A similar, although less striking increase has been reported in Philadelphia… It is tempting to speculate that the increase in invasive pneumococcal infections is causally related to the disappearance of Hib disease.”
Basson E., et.al. “Haemophilus influenzae meningitis AFTER vaccination.
Consequence or Coincidence?” Archives de Pediatrie, April 1996;3(4):342-344.

Also no vaccine is pure. ACTHIB (as long as it is reconstituted with saline) may not have adjuvants in it but still has trace amounts of formaldehyde in it and there is the culture medium and manufacuring to consider.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#16 of 21 Old 09-07-2010, 07:46 PM
 
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Angela, maybe I am misinformed on this issue, I know that Prevnar is supposed to protect against some meningitis infections but its primary purpose is ear infections and pnemonia's. Am I wrong? I have heard that while Hib infection is very rare, it can cause severe life long disabilities. That is why Hib is the one I am on the fence about.
It's been awhile since I researched, but last I read they were still NOT ALLOWED to claim that prevnar prevented ear infections... but they are both strains of bacterial infections that can cause a number of issues. My main issue with bacterial vaxes of that sort is serotype replacement. Something else always fills the void (hence the increase in strains in the prevnar) and sometimes the new one that steps up is worse than the one you just vaccinated for.

-Angela
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#17 of 21 Old 09-07-2010, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Does anyone have access to articles/research/etc on HIB infections after two years old? I know the Swedish study that said bf protects against hib long into childhood. I have a hard time finding articles on this, and have even tried google scholar, pubmed and nvic. I would really appreciate it Also, I am incorrect about Prevnar being ineffective? From what I have read it is pretty reactive and to boot, worthless at prevention of pc strains.
Thanks everyone
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#18 of 21 Old 09-07-2010, 11:00 PM
 
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Last time I researched (granted, a couple of years ago...) the bacterial vaxes (hib and prevnar) were VERY effective. So much so that the strains the covered stopped appearing... even in unvaxed to a large extent. BUT other strains just filled the void, leaving the same total number of cases of infection, just different strains than before. In some cases the new strains were much worse than the old.

-Angela
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#19 of 21 Old 09-09-2010, 08:32 PM
 
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#20 of 21 Old 09-10-2010, 12:46 AM
 
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This article made me think of this thread. A great example of serotype replacement (that happens with hib vaxes as well)

http://www.gaia-health.com/articles2...neumonia.shtml

-Angela
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#21 of 21 Old 09-10-2010, 11:40 AM
 
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IDK, a lady at my playgroup claimed her ds got a vax for 'ear infections' - she had no idea what it was just that it was 'for ear infections' - I'd now wager that was prevnar. And this was years ago "and he's never had an ear infection, so I guess it worked! ' Course' ds1 is 3.5 too and has never had an ear infection, nor a single vax. So (and yes, I told her that... and then the whole 'vaxes are awesome!' convo kinda ended )
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