Isn't it illogical not to vaccinate? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 69 Old 01-06-2011, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm seriously considering not vaccinating after reading The Vaccine Book, but I feel like I'm being illogical.  The risk of not vaccinating is greater then the risk of vaccinating (for most of the vaccines), looking purely at the numbers of deaths from vaccinating or deaths (or serious damage) from the vaccine itself...so how do you guys make sense of your decision?  I FEEL like vaccinating doesn't make sense, but I'm going to get a lot of resistance from people who find out if I decide not to vaccinate.  What do I say?  With homebirth it's easy, I just say the numbers are very comparable.  I feel like the numbers are not that comparable with this subject, yet my gut feeling is telling me not to vaccinate, perhaps out of pure fear of harming my child with a vaccine when they may have been otherwise healthy.  Can anyone help me with this thought process...


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#3 of 69 Old 01-06-2011, 08:36 PM
 
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I would rather nurse a normally healthy child back to good health after an illness than make a healthy child sick with a vaccine.  It's kinda like playing Russian Roulette.  I know what to expect with a VAD, a vaccine on the other hand???  Who knows???

 

ITA with the PP...back in my day, I only got OPV, Smallpox, DTP and MMR. I still got measles and mumps and WP...Why bother?  I took the toxins and poisons and still got the disease - (Polio and smallpox weren't even on the table when I got shot up).  So nothing that I was vaccinated for and got anyway scare me and since the vaccines weren't available for anything else, no one even worried about them.  Did any normal parent ever even hear of HIB before the vaccine was pushed?


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#4 of 69 Old 01-06-2011, 08:39 PM
 
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For me I felt that my DD was at low risk, since she isn't in daycare and was breastfed.  Then I also considered the subtle possible effects from vaccines that may exist that haven't been proven.  I just don't 'trust' the system that puts out drugs and then later recalls them after a bunch of people drop dead.  For me, with my son, who had all the vaccines, having some issues, who knows - his problems aren't severe, but maybe they ARE from vaccines, I don't know.  Maybe not.  But I just felt like not taking that chance.  My daughter is 2 years 9 months and has been SO healthy compared to my son.  Hasn't ever needed any medications, no ear infection or respiratory infections - just a couple snotty noses for a short period and one case of roseola that with a rash that only lasted a couple hours.  Anyway, maybe it's all just coincidence or just DD's been lucky.  I don't know.  But as she is getting older and I had planned to start some vaccines, I really hesitate!  :(  It's a HARD decision. 

 

I don't run around being worried about MRSA, and how many thousands each year die from that?  Surely if they came out with a vaccine, it would turn into such a SCARY disease that most parents don't really worry about now.  Funny how that works! 

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#5 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 03:01 AM
 
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If the research was thorough and complete and the figures were still the same then yes, it would probably make sense to vaccinate. My concern is that the research on vaccines is not complete and that reactions are under-reported.

 

I guess I differ from some of the people on this board in that I *am* worried about some VPDs but, as a PP said, my LO is at fairly low risk at the moment - fully BFed, not in daycare, DH and I are fully vaccinated. I think we will probably end up doing delayed, selective vaccinating when she is older and we feel more comfortable with her being exposed to the components of the vaccines.


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#6 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ok.  When I talked to my husband about the numbers, he had a similar response as some of you, "but we really don't KNOW everything about each vaccine or the possible effects".  He was also shocked when I told him that our girls had already gotten all of the vaccinations on the schedule, we've both been very ignorant about this until now.  The vaccines with human/animal tissue bother me the most and I am firm on not getting those.  I just want it to make sense to me, so I'm able to fully explain my reasoning to someone if they ask.  My two daughters are fully vaxed (2 and 4), and I'm pregnant with a third, I'm leaning towards stopping vaccinations for my girls and not vaccinating for the third at all.  I also breastfeed and they're not in daycare, my kids will go to a small pre-school in the fall.  It makes me feel a little safer that I'm having this baby in May, so all those illness's that may coming the first 6 mo's of life, it will be summer, less chance, and my kids won't be in school yet.  When I went through each vaccine, my conclusion was I wasn't comfortable with any of the possible serious, or even less serious side effects of each shot.  However I would consider a chickpox vaccination when they are teenagers if they haven't gotten it yet, and I'm considering getting the Pertussis shot for myself and husband.  The poster who mentioned getting vaccines for yourself, which ones do you get?

 

I just read that private schools don't have to follow the guidlines of accepting religious exemption forms...hoping this won't be an issue.


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#7 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 05:52 AM
 
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After 7 years of research on the subject, I can say that I do not for one minute believe that the risks of the disease outweigh the risks of the vaccines.  Quite the opposite.  From what I see, the illnesses are either much less scary than the side effects of the vaccines, and for those that aren't (such as Polio--which has been eradicated for several decades, or Diphtheria--1 case per year)--there is virtually no chance my child will get those diseases anyway. 

 

Besides the fact that so many of these vaccines don't work properly, and don't last but a few years, you are setting your child up to continually get life-long rounds of booster shots, that aren't working much anyway.  For some vaccines, 75% or more of the people who catch the illness are vaccinated.  Why did they even bother risking the side effects?

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#8 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 09:09 AM
 
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Here are some quick thoughts:

 

- From what I've seen, parents and doctors rarely connect problems with vaccines. I can't even imagine what the true numbers are, but it is well over the reported numbers.

 

- What are you considering as a vaccine reaction? Something that happens closely after the vaccine is administered, or potentially damaging a nicely functioning immune system? You might not see those consequences right away.

 

- Depending on the state, private schools may need to accept exemptions. They do in my state.

 

- Search the VAERS database... just spend some time plugging in different vaccines and outcomes. Then know that only 1-10% of injuries are reported. You might not feel so illogical for not vaccinating.

 

- It's easier to defend not vaccinating disease by disease and not as a whole concept. Familiarize yourself with the illnesses, and when someone asks why you don't vax, ask them which disease they'd like to discuss. I can't believe how many of my friends can only list polio, flu, and pertussis. It's like they have no idea what they are injecting into their kids or why.

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#9 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 09:15 AM
 
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The TDaP for adults has not been shown to prevent transmission.  Basically, you could be carrying the bacteria and not know it because you would be asymptomatic.  so, in a sense, you could be more dangerous to your LOs because you wouldn't know you were contagious.  The vaccine does not prevent you from getting pertussis, it only prevents the bacteria from killing off the scillia and making you cough

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ok.  When I talked to my husband about the numbers, he had a similar response as some of you, "but we really don't KNOW everything about each vaccine or the possible effects".  He was also shocked when I told him that our girls had already gotten all of the vaccinations on the schedule, we've both been very ignorant about this until now.  The vaccines with human/animal tissue bother me the most and I am firm on not getting those.  I just want it to make sense to me, so I'm able to fully explain my reasoning to someone if they ask.  My two daughters are fully vaxed (2 and 4), and I'm pregnant with a third, I'm leaning towards stopping vaccinations for my girls and not vaccinating for the third at all.  I also breastfeed and they're not in daycare, my kids will go to a small pre-school in the fall.  It makes me feel a little safer that I'm having this baby in May, so all those illness's that may coming the first 6 mo's of life, it will be summer, less chance, and my kids won't be in school yet.  When I went through each vaccine, my conclusion was I wasn't comfortable with any of the possible serious, or even less serious side effects of each shot.  However I would consider a chickpox vaccination when they are teenagers if they haven't gotten it yet, and I'm considering getting the Pertussis shot for myself and husband.  The poster who mentioned getting vaccines for yourself, which ones do you get?

 

I just read that private schools don't have to follow the guidlines of accepting religious exemption forms...hoping this won't be an issue.




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#10 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 09:36 AM
 
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For me it wasn't about numbers.I looked at the inserts and questioned how the adverse events are treated. Having been through  vaccine injury myself I know first hand that doctors will shrug and blame genetics or something in the air rather than acknowledge a vaccine caused injury. What a shame because I think people might be more inclined to vaccinate if they knew doctors will help when and if a reaction occurs.

 

The vaccine injury compensation program is a joke.Most people who file never get past the first step. If you mention VAERS doctors will say it is just hysterical moms looking to blame vaccines for any health issues.

 

In the end you will have to decide what you are more comfortable dealing with-possible vaccine injury or possible disease complcations.Like homebirth you will face more negativity if you do not vaccinate and your child dies or is injured as the result of a VPD. If you vaccinate and injury occurs everyone will say it was something other than vaccines,or they will say it would have been worse if you did not vaccinate.

 

Dh's neices were vaxed and there are no issues. Our kids were not and there are no issues. Go with what you are comfortable with. Keep detailed medical records(at home) regarless of what you do. Best wishes!

 

Some private schools can decline an exemption.Ours has not and I would not vaccinate anyway to get them into a school,camp,or program.

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#11 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 09:46 AM
 
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I think merely looking at "Deaths from vaccines" versus "Deaths from diseases" is too narrow an approach for this issue. You really need to look at overall risk from vaccines versus overall risk from disease, which includes taking into consideration your health, your children's health/sensitivities, vaccine manufacturing and administration, disease prevalence and risk of contraction, vaccine effectiveness, long term immunity, etc. I wouldn't even know how to begin incorporating these factors into "the numbers" as you say, but I am positive that the outcome would be different for every different set of personal circumstances.

And then, to be honest, lots of people think a "gut feeling" should be the most important part of your decision, and "the numbers" are secondary to that. For many people, instinct or a feeling from the universe/diety is a critical part of the decision-making process that shouldn't be discounted at the onset. So perhaps the first step is to decide how you want to make your decision, then the second is to do the research and/or soul-searching you feel is necessary to make a decision you're comfortable with. smile.gif

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#12 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 09:47 AM
 
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Unless you share with people that your child is unvaccinated no one will know. I am unvaccinated as are my siblings, its an issue that really doesn't come up unless you bring it up.

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#13 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 10:07 AM
 
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I began to really question vaccinating at all after reading "The Vaccine Book" too. What really helped me decide was after doing all my research I found that I just can't trust the AAP, regular doctors, the vaccine companies.... This series helped me a lot, it's a 4 part documentary by Dr. Tedd Koren titled "The truth about vaccination":

 

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbNRdx1_7aU

 

*ht...tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrEKiOKcUOI

 

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkOyao2XoLs

 

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbuKaO_ieuw


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#14 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 10:31 AM
 
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I can't comment on the comparative statistics because I find it all too mind boggling to come to a conclusion about.

 

I can say that for me it isn't a binary vaccine-no vaccine decision, but more a matter of which ones and when. I weigh the pros and cons of each vaccine and the disease it aims to prevent individually, along with the needs of my child. For diseases that my child is at high risk of contracting and being made seriously ill from, I get the vaccine, otherwise, I skip it. Or delay it until a time when my child is at greater risk from the disease than the vaccine.

 

For example, the pneumococcal vaccine has some worrying risks for me, but my DS has a condition that makes him very vulnerable to getting pneumonia. So he got the vaccine because I felt he personally was at greater risk from pneumonia than the vaccine. It's a decision I made for my child only, had he not been so vulnerable to pneumonia its unlikely I would have had him get this vaccine.

 

OTOH, my daughter is at high risk for complications from the flu. I used to have her get the vaccine every year but last year she had a bad reaction. Now she doesn't get it, but everyone in the house gets it to help keep her protected from the flu. So I had my first ever flu shot a few months ago!

 

Since you do see some benefit to vaccines, I wonder if you might find it useful to read more about selective and delayed vaccine schedules rather than considering skipping them altogether.

 

ETA: I got here from the home page and didn't see it was in the 'I'm not vaccinating' forum. I apologize if what I wrote wasn't appropriate for this forum.


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#15 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 11:16 AM
 
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You've gotten alot of good advice already.

 

I will say that persoanlly I think no desicion should be made until you have done more research. Reading 1 book is not eneough IMO. (Im assuming that's all you've read - you didn't mention anything else). If and when you feel you have done exhaustive reseach, you still feel that the risks from the diseases outweigh the risk from the vaccines for any particular disease/vax, then you may choose to get certain ones.

 

I think its is very important to keep in mind when going over risks vs benefits that the vast majority of vaccine reactions are not recognized as such and any link to adverse reactio is denied, so any "numbers" you are coming across are not accurate IMO.


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#16 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 11:31 AM
 
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If you consider that only 1-10% of reactions are reported to VAERS and this includes serious reactions like brain damage and death, then the amount of children getting hurt by vaccines is 10 to 100 times more than indicated.

 

So to me its illogical to vaccinate my child, when the chances of injury are likely much higher than stated. Doctors are trained to believe correlation does not imply causation, so if your child does get hurt they will not believe it was from the vaccine unless it happens like 30 seconds after a vaccination.


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#17 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 12:47 PM
 
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A lot of my reasons are similar to those stated by others.  One that is significant to me, that I haven't seen mentioned (or I missed it), is the underlying assumption in conventional medicine that the vaccination decision is a simple choice of vaccinate or do nothing and take your chances.

 

I don't do nothing, I feel that there is a huge amount I can do to decrease the likelihood of a bad outcome if/when we get many of the vaccinateable diseases.  Just getting the illness (and having no complications) isn't a negative for me, but I do think about the complications.  But the likelihood of those is not fixed--we all accept that measles for a half-starved kid in Africa is a lot riskier than for a kid in the US, but I haven't seen AAP or CDC talking in any depth about how to decrease the chances of a bad outcome for illnesses we _do_ contract, vaccinateable or not, beyond very, very basic stuff.  Even stuff that seems basic like breastfeeding and rotavirus or other diarrheal illnesses isn't discussed nearly as much as "just vaccinate your kid." 

 

I started putting together my toolbox of ideas on how to treat illness when I decided that we weren't vaccinating anymore, but the toolbox has been far more helpful for run-of-the-mill illnesses.  And it's worked--my son, when he was little (his first 2-3 years), got sick a lot more than the typical kid, and I've taken him in for one sick visit and haven't needed antibiotics or other meds.  There are a lot of good ideas in Health & Healing about how to skew the odds towards avoiding complications, for all the diseases out there, not just the vaccinateable ones. 

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#18 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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tanya I agree about be proactive even when not vaccinating.  Have you found anything besides health and healing to be helpful?


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#19 of 69 Old 01-07-2011, 01:06 PM
 
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There's a lot in the Health & Healing forum, the sticky that has links to old threads is useful for getting a lot of ideas.  And there's a lot of problem-solving in the Allergies forum--we're all there for a wide variety of reasons, but we're finding interesting overlaps--really considering the possibility of food intolerances was a good boost for us, health-wise.  And personally I like the nutrient dense approach of the Traditional Foods forum--and various blogs that I've gotten recs from that fan out from there, or google for more info to flesh out ideas that I first heard of here at MDC.

 

I guess the biggest thing, at least for us, is using a critical eye to examine our family health history.  Instead of assuming "oh, I just have allergies/thyroid problems/whatever" because so many people in my family do, asking why is my family susceptible to this, and how do I fix it?

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Where are you getting your numbers from regarding death from vaccines? For example, most infant deaths will be officially labelled SIDS, even when it's pretty clear that it was from the vaccine.

 

Don't worry about explaining or justifying to other people. It's best to not tell anybody. Your children's medical information is private. And once they reach school age, I'm sure they would not want that information known, either. Why risk being ostracized or losing play dates over it?

 

Here's a recent book that's more anti-vaccine than the Sears' book. http://www.amazon.com/Informed-Vaccine-Decision-Health-Child/dp/1881217361/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294443127&sr=8-1

 

Most states do require private schools to accept vaccine exemptions. One exception is New Jersey, where religious schools don't have to accept religious exemptions.

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Quote:
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For example, most infant deaths will be officially labelled SIDS, even when it's pretty clear that it was from the vaccine.

 Would you mind providing a link?

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#23 of 69 Old 01-08-2011, 10:14 AM
 
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Please dont quote Whale.to articles. They discredit us all.


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#24 of 69 Old 01-08-2011, 10:47 AM
 
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Dr Sears book was far too liberal. I do not believe the risks of not vaccinating are higher than that of vaccinating.

 

I would look at each individual vaccination. Then I would look at what makes up the so-called death rates from the diseases. I would assume that there are no true accurate records of complications from the shots. Then I would ask...would I as an adult get these shots? For me to give my child a shot, the shot has to pass these tests. The biggie is, would I get the shot? If not, then why would I give it to my infant? Most shots given to infants today were never given to todays adults as babies. Those that were have worn off. (the DTP was around long ago, but it would have worn off by now). The death rates from the diseases are often faulty. Sometimes, they are supposedly collected in countries that really do not keep statistics. If they were even collected here, sometimes, like with the DTP, the people who supposedly died from Pertussis actually were people where the child's parents failed to care properly for their children. The children never once went to the doctor until they were dead essentually. They were living in extreme poverty and did not have proper heat, plumbing, or otherwise. Then I look at how the shot is made and what is in the shot. If there is anything questionable, I will not allow it. How successful is the shot?

 

IF the shot passes all my tests, then I still wait until after 3. I get myself the shot. Any shot any of my children get, I will get first. I never get why any parent would get shots for their children that they did not get for themselves. Seriously...that one baffles me.

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#25 of 69 Old 01-08-2011, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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too liberal with which numbers?

 

I just ordered "Make an Informed Vaccine Decision" I'd like to compare the numbers with The Vaccine Book.

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For me, I have personal history of  vaccine reactions, as well as a handicap sister who I STRONGLY suspect, due to her symptoms as a baby, as being vaccine damaged.  At over 40 yrs old she's still in diapers being cared for by my parents.

 

I didn't make any connections about vaccines being harmful until I reacted as an adult to a vaccine.  I was a student at Mayo Clinic, and they claimed to required vaccines (not true, but my teachers insisted that I would be thrown out of their program if I didn't receive the vaccines--that deception alone makes me furious).  I received the 1st HepB and tetanus vaccines, and within a day developed a huge golfball size abscess under my arm and in my groin area.  When I called in about it, saying I'd reacted, the nurse got all angry and annoyed and said if I wanted to have it looked at it would be on my own dime (it was "free" for me as a Mayo student to receive the shots).  As a student going full-time to their program I didn't have a penny to spare!  I was outraged they required me to get a shot, then make me pay for it when I reacted to it.  I called a few times, insisting that their attitude was not right and they need to see me, but the nurses were always irate and annoyed that I had the NERVE to claim I reacted to a vaccine!!  Complete rudeness and not at all caring that I was in pain and worried.  And it's not like I was an outsider, I was one of their own Mayo students!

I endured the pain of the abscesses a few weeks until I finally took some homeopathic medicine which resolved them.  I'm still furious about this incident...!!

 

A PP stated don't expect help from the doctors if there's a vaccine reaction.  100% agreement here!

 

This incident made me question my own medical history, and I'm convinced I had a small stroke due to vaccines as a baby, which caused my left eye to turn inward and the left side of my mouth to become weak as well--lots of baby and toddler pics of me with a big grin, but turned up only on the right side.  I was always told I was born cross-eyed.  But I carefully looked at my baby pics, and in fact I was not born with this problem.  My eyes are normal facing at birth, and my smile is both-sided.   It's not til I'm months older that all my pics are cross-eyed and crooked mouthed.  The timing of my vaccines correlate well to the pictures of my worsening condition.  And I had hip problems on the left side as a toddler as well.  I'm sure my parents never even questioned vaccines.  Three eye operations later, I still have issues with my left eye facing where it's supposed to, and I get eye strain very easily.

 

For me, when I have children, non-vaccing is the only logical choice.  Family history contraindicates them.

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#28 of 69 Old 01-08-2011, 08:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

  The poster who mentioned getting vaccines for yourself, which ones do you get?

 

 



I think this was me. DH and I were vaccinated according to the relevant schedules as children. As adults we have variously had ADT and MMR boosters, Heb B series and flu vax. We both work in high risk occupations and are required by our employers to have certain vaccinations if we want to remain working in our areas of choice.

 

IMO vaccines do help to prevent or reduce the severity of some diseases *but* we are sufficiently concerned with the potential risks that we are not prepared to vaccinate our baby at this stage. Also I did not have a flu shot while I was pregnant.

 

People talking about it has come up for both DH and I. I go to a couple of mother's groups and when the babies are at the vaccination ages people ask "How did J go with her vaccinations?" or "Has J had her 4 month shots yet?" It's nothing sinister, just mummy chat. I just say she's not vaccinated and so far it's only led to a discussion once. I have two specific examples of my concerns which I always start with and no-one has questioned me further so far. 


Mother of two spectacular girls, born mid-2010 and late 2012  mdcblog5.gif

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#29 of 69 Old 01-09-2011, 01:27 AM
 
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I am aware that this is the non-vaxing forum.  My understanding is that most members of this board make their decisions about vaxes based on science, so I don't think that my request for proof to back up someone's scientific claim is a violation of the intent or spirit of this board. 

 

Thank you for providing those links!  But what I was actually looking for was proof of what the poster said, that most cases of death from vaccine are mislabeled as a death from SIDS, even if it's obvious that it's from the vaccine.  The links you provided were a professional biography of a physician, someone's synopsis of the history of vaccinations, and a couple of stories about babies who died of SIDS and had gotten shots recently.  I am looking more for the proof that vaccinations were the cause of a death, and it was mislabelled a SIDS death.  Because the very nature of SIDS implies that the death of the child would take place close to a scheduled vaccination, as these are deaths in infants and infants often have monthly vaccinations.  Again, I am interested in seeing the causation, not correlation, if that's available.  TIA to anyone who can help!

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#30 of 69 Old 01-09-2011, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not basing my decision on whether SIDS, or Autism, have a direct correlation to vaccines.  I'm sure there's logical arguments on both sides, but I'm just looking at the more solid information I can get my hands on.  I've learned a lot since posting this...and continuing to learn...


Christian SAHM & birth doula.
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