DH is hassling me about the Polio vax...need data - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, I need hard data to provide to DH about Polio & the vaccine.  I know that the chances of contracting Polio in the US is slim to none.  I'm actually not 100% opposed to the vaccine, but how effective is it? How safe is it?

 

I am actually compiling a "book" so when people question me & treat me like some illogical crazy person, I can whip out an article/study & show them my reasoning.  Unfortunately, despite a lot of research, I can't recall all facets of all diseases & vaccines.

 

Thanks!


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#2 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Since I posted this, I did a whole bunch of research (much of which I had seen before) that I tried to convey to DH.

 

That led to a screaming fight (yes, I am pregnant).  Apparently all of my research is suspect & my conclusions are illogical.  The fact there is could be any chance no matter how ridiculously small of DS getting Polio & that I am not vaccinating him means that I am risking his life. Which apparently means that I am not only illogical but am also a bad mother (no he didn't say any of those things, but he certainly implied them).

 

8 people have gotten paralytic polio in the past 30 yrs (prior to 1993 & from traveling elsewhere in the world) so that is reason enough to vaccinate DS?  I don't know if they traveled to India or Africa or another place that has an "epidemic).  If you take 8 people with only the current US population, it's a .00000266 chance of getting paralytic polio, the number has to much smaller if you consider all people since 1980.  Right?  Then you have to factor in traveling to another country.  8 people out of how many millions in the past 30 yrs?  Do I have to protect my child from everything that has a infinitesimal chance of happening?  Do I want anything to happen to my son? Of course not.  Do I want to inject him with a bunch of toxins that might not even work & might permanently harm him immune system?  No!

 

 

 


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#3 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 08:41 AM
 
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I think that polio is a sticking point for a lot of people.  Even when I say that we don't vaccinate, people often ask "But what about polio??"  Some people even seem to get panicked and angry when they ask that question. 

 

I don't think it's worth a screaming fight.  Are you listening to his concerns?  This is something that you both need to do together and if Polio is his dealbreaker, then that should be something to consider.  From what I've read, polio is one of the longest used and least reactive vaccines.

 

What was his argument in the fight?  It could be stories from his parents or grandparents, or the loss of an aunt or something.  A lot of people were really freaked out about polio not that long ago. 

 

Would he be willing to do one polio vaccine after 6 mo of age and no boosters?  Do you have access to a good naturapathic dr. who can talk both of you through the vaccine decision?

 

I'm not saying that you should just give in on this when it's something that you feel so passionately about and I don't vaccinate for it, but if it's not worth screaming fights either.  Have him team up with you on this, don't make him your adversary.  He needs ammo too for when people question him about it. 

 

Maybe get a good vaccine book and read certain points out loud to him while you two are hanging out.  Don't be like "See, I told you, read here..." but instead, "Hey, listen to this, did you know...?" 


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#4 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 11:51 AM
 
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I kind of disagree with pp... I feel passionately that vaccines are dangerous for my children and would absolutely get into screaming fights to protect them. Well, dh and I don't usually scream when we disagree, but I do think it's worth any fight it would take to help my kids remain vaccine free.

 

My guess is that sitting down and talking through your dh's concerns and looking up real numbers will get you farther than a screaming fight. Vaccines can be a very emotional and scary subject from either side, so keeping discussions calm can definitely be a challenge. Maybe try it in small pieces and take breaks when things get heated?

 

The polio vaccine itself might be one of the least reactive vaccines, but what does one vaccine do to an immune system in the long run? Kids might not have immediate reactions, but based on my beliefs about vaccines, I think that any vaccine messes up a healthy and natural immune system.

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#5 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 12:54 PM
 
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http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/polio/

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#6 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DS is 3.5 so I'm not all that worried about the IPV itself. I am deeply concerned about other vaccines though.

 

Now he is questioning me on Whopping Cough. I am expecting & was considering getting it until I realized that it's not very effective.  Not to mention all the potential side-effects of all 3 vaccines in the DPT.

 

I did the screaming mainly b/c DH has chosen to do no research & doesn't read what I provide him.  Then tells me he doesn't like the research I'm presenting him with, that my arguments are illogical & that I am endangering DSs life, the life of our unborn baby & the general public at large.  

 

DH has no personal stories of anyone afflicted by Polio or another VPD.  I am very understanding when personal stories influence people's perceptions & decisions.  A friend, who also happens to be a pretty smart scientist, says that certain instances of VPDs in her family affected her decision to select certain vax even though she knows that's not a very scientific reason to get them.  Perfect understandable to  me!  My Aunt is 61 & lived during the Polio "epidemic" so I understand how frightened people were & why everyone wanted to be vaccinated.  Of course when I tell her that the majority of "polio" cases may have been aseptic meningitis she doesn't doubt that they could be mistaken for each other just based on of observations.  We try to make the best decisions with the information we have at the time.

 

Apparently DH views any risk as too much, which is ok with me.  I think that vaccine decisions in many cases are about assessing risk & doing what you are comfortable with.  That being said, we face greater risks in our day-to-day lives (driving in a car, crossing the seat, etc.) than the risks associated with VPDs.


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#7 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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PS It didn't start as a screaming fight.  It started out as a discussion & then degraded into that b/c of DHs comments about me being illogical, presenting shoddy research, etc.  Funny b/c much of the data I was quoting was from the CDCs website.

 

The Inside Vaccines was some of the data I was looking at prior to our conversation.


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#8 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 02:29 PM
 
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I'm sorry your having this issue with your DH.

 

I can't offer much in the way of research.  I can tell you that my MIL is a polio survivor, and she supports our decision to not vax, because she understands the risks to the vaccine outway the risk of the illness, even though she was one of the few that did get sick.  She has Post Polio Syndrome, and is wheelchair bound because of the illness.  I was sure that she would freak when she found out we weren't vaxxing, but she was 100% supportive.


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#9 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 02:56 PM
 
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Do you have access to the VEARS database?  I'm sure someone here has a link to it.  If "any" risk is too much for him, then maybe that will make him aware of the risks of vaccinating.  It's especially scary to think that only 10% of the reactions are reported. 

 

I know someone who lost her baby in his sleep one night and the first thing that the nurse asked was "did he have any vaccines recently?"  He had, less than a week before.  That's terrifying to me and to know that it's something that was most likely injected into him, not a natural thing that just happened makes it that much worse.

 

My position is that I don't vaccinate my children, but I'm not passionate about it I guess because I don't really have to fight anyone about it. Most of my friends are like me and I use a naturapath, so there's no resistance there.  If it were something I had to fight for and explain often, I'd probably feel differently.

 

I still think that you need some good healthcare people on your side.  Have you looked for a good naturapathic doctor?  Some will negotiate the price.


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#10 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Our pediatrician has been totally supportive of our choice to not, vax which is why we go to him.  I'd had a tough time dealing with an unsupportive or critical Dr.  I am open to taking him to a Naturopath, the one I know doesn't vaccinate her kids actually & I've seen a Holistic Nurse who has a family practice that doesn't vax her kids either, however said she would vax for Polio if it ever reared it's head again.  My Midwives are also very supportive of going to the selective or no vaccination route.

 

Getting some info off of VAERS is a great idea.  Haven't been there lately.  I did a ton of research years ago & had to refresh my memory on a lot of things. I now decided to compile a "book" of pertinent vaccine info so I have easy access to all of my research  & can help anyone else who asks for it.


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#11 of 25 Old 02-13-2011, 06:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awallrising View Post

DS is 3.5 so I'm not all that worried about the IPV itself. I am deeply concerned about other vaccines though.

 

Now he is questioning me on Whopping Cough. I am expecting & was considering getting it until I realized that it's not very effective.  Not to mention all the potential side-effects of all 3 vaccines in the DPT.

 

I did the screaming mainly b/c DH has chosen to do no research & doesn't read what I provide him.  Then tells me he doesn't like the research I'm presenting him with, that my arguments are illogical & that I am endangering DSs life, the life of our unborn baby & the general public at large.  

 

DH has no personal stories of anyone afflicted by Polio or another VPD.  I am very understanding when personal stories influence people's perceptions & decisions.  A friend, who also happens to be a pretty smart scientist, says that certain instances of VPDs in her family affected her decision to select certain vax even though she knows that's not a very scientific reason to get them.  Perfect understandable to  me!  My Aunt is 61 & lived during the Polio "epidemic" so I understand how frightened people were & why everyone wanted to be vaccinated.  Of course when I tell her that the majority of "polio" cases may have been aseptic meningitis she doesn't doubt that they could be mistaken for each other just based on of observations.  We try to make the best decisions with the information we have at the time.

 

Apparently DH views any risk as too much, which is ok with me.  I think that vaccine decisions in many cases are about assessing risk & doing what you are comfortable with.  That being said, we face greater risks in our day-to-day lives (driving in a car, crossing the seat, etc.) than the risks associated with VPDs.



Only risks with the diseases are too much? Does he consider the risks with vaxing too? It's hard, but try to weigh the risk of vaxing against the risk of the disease. Only one is a "sure" risk. Beyond that, there are so many factors and unknowns.

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#12 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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DH has done NO research & believes that over-vaccinating is the problem but not necessarily individual vaccines.

 

Apparently DH views any risk as too much, which is ok with me

What I meant is that it's OK fro DH to have his opinion.  If he does his research & feels that the risk of not vaccinating is greater, I will discuss the subject with him.  I think it's all about assessing risk & doing what you are most comfortable with.

 

DS is not vaccinated at 3.5 yrs of age, so in my opinion, catching a "VPD" is not as probable as having a problem from a vaccine.  I feel like a vaccine will definitely have a negative impact on his immune system, maybe slight in some cases & the chances of getting most diseases are slim to none (of course DH believes that vaccines "cured" all epidemics).  

 

Even though the IPV may be one of the less reactive vaccines, do I really want to inject monkey kidney cells & other junk into DS?  Maybe if the vaccine was just the inactivated disease I'd be more ok with them in general.

 

DH is driven by the conventional fears that drive most people to vaccinate yet he wants to hear nothing of the history of the diseases or vaccines & believes that anything other than the risk of the disease vs the risk of the vaccine need to be considered.  Unfortunately, we must consider that the information we've been presented by the powers that be is in fact an accurate picture & more often it is not.

 

How DH cannot believe that my decisions are fueled by anything other than protecting my son is beyond me.


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#13 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 11:23 AM
 
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Sorry, but your DH is the one that sound irrational.

 

If he is not willing to do any research of his own and automatically tells you the research you have done is not good enough even though he doesn't bother to study it would be totally unacceptable to me. If he chooses to let fear fuel his choices then he (not you) is the illogical one and should get No say in the matter.

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#14 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Marnica, Thank you!

 

DH IS being totally illogical yet is claiming that I am.  No wonder I ended up yelling, it's so frustrating.  I do not take this issue lightly & have done a lot of my own research so I can make a truly informed decision.  Plus that he seems to think that the risk of getting the disease far outweighs the risk of the vaccine & I don't.  That's a difference that I can accept...except that I don't think he's making an informed decision. Just so unimaginable that he thinks I would put my child at risk.  I devote my entire life pretty much to DS.  I see what a healthy boy he is & am terribly afraid of messing up his immune system, brain, etc.

 

I am questioning my reasoning now, even though I know I'm on the right track.  I also ask to ask does he not understand my rationale? Am I not explaining myself correctly?  I have read a ton of data, but cannot regurgitate all of it.  Maybe the stuff I'm mentioning isn't the right stuff?


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#15 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 12:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awallrising View Post

Even though the IPV may be one of the less reactive vaccines, do I really want to inject monkey kidney cells & other junk into DS?


IPV is filtered to under half a micron. No Vero cells remain.

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#16 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Otto.  Though I am more worried more about vaccine ingredients in other vaccines.


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#17 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 01:05 PM
 
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Questiong your reasoning?  In what way? 

 

You know, it's really hard for people who really believe in vaccinations to see the other side.  Your husband could see your way, but you have to have the right sources for him.  So much non-vax info seems very sensationalized.  One doctor that I thought was solid turned out doing lots of interviews on a site that I consider dangerous and irresponsible in their sensationalization.  I must admit, that shook me and make me re-examine my views on vaccination.  If everyone I look to for information turns out to be a , IMO, a flake, then what do you do? Luckily, I have many IRL sources that I don't really need the online ones.  That's why I was suggesting that you take him with you to a supportive health care provider.  Someone IRL who your husband trusts who can explain this stuff to him.  In my area, Naturapathic doctors do allopathic medicine as well, so they're not much different than a regular doctor, but more aware of nutrition, homeopathics and working with health.  In some areas, a naturapathic dr. is pretty much a homeopath with no ability to prescribe meds, etc.

 

I really liked this speech by Gary Null.  I haven't looked much into him, to tell the truth, but this speech was great.  Have your husband watch it with you.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o&feature=related

 

How do you get along with your husband otherwise?


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#18 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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He is questioning my research & my conclusions.  My decision to not vax is based on multiple factors including data from the CDC itself, the history of VPDs & Vaccines, the risk of the disease vs the risk of getting the vaccine, reports of vaccine injuries, opinions of medical professionals including various MDs, how our immune systems function naturally, etc.  I cannot even count the # of hours I've spent researching this issue & am not in the process of compiling a "book" containing vaccine data with all the above factors that I feel are relavant along the pro-vaccine people & studies so I can "debunk" them.  He doesn't seem to believe that the history in this situation has anything to do with assessing VPD risk vs Vax risk. He thinks that my willingness to accept the risk of getting disease, no matter how small that chance, shows that I am being illogical.  Again, he has done no research & only thinks there is risk if you follow the AAP schedule.  He seems convinced that I am anti-vaccine & will not consider that vaccines have value that I am not logical.  I'm not necessarily against all vaccinating, I am just not comfortable vax'ing my kid at this time based on the information I have now.

 

DH & I agree on many subjects, we definitely have our problems getting along though.  He does like to split hairs (just like his parents) & often does not want to believe what I say only to "discover" the same thing later & repeat it to me like it's his original idea.  That's a whole other story though.


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#19 of 25 Old 02-14-2011, 04:00 PM
 
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If your husband is not willing to research to have a logical argument, then it's pointless to even have the argument.  Not vaccinating is the biological default.  Put the burden on him to convince you why vaccinating is better than not.  Just saying that the disease is worse than the vaccine is not a valid argument.

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#20 of 25 Old 02-19-2011, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Boknon, I totally agree that not vax'ing is the default & there needs to be an argument to vax.  DH is being illogical b/c he believes the status quo & has not done a shred of research.

 

I feel like the vast majority of people believe in vax, being in the minority is very difficult.


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#21 of 25 Old 02-19-2011, 08:01 PM
 
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So let me get this straight:

 

He refuses to read the research you've given him, and refuses to do any research on his own, and his only answer for "Why should we vaccinate our healthy children?" is, "Because that's what most people do!"

 

In my family, the person who does the research makes the decisions. There are certain things that DH leaves up to me, like the children's medical decisions, because I'm willing to spend long hours reading about them. And there are certain things that I leave up to DH, like which cars to buy, because he enjoys researching them and I'd rather watch paint dry. We do sometimes butt heads on some emotionally-charged topics, but the person who has done the most research and has the most logical argument generally decides.

 

And since the default state of the human body is completely vaccine-free, the person pushing vaccination must come up with good, researched, compelling reasons to inject a healthy child with powerful pharmaceutical drugs that carry with them known, documented side effects up to and including death. The burden of proof is on him, mama, and never let him forget it. If he's unwilling to do his own research and come up with some good reasons to vaccinate beyond, "Everyone else is doing it!" then he doesn't get a say--period. Your children's health is way too important to sacrifice to his ego.

 

Personally, it would be my hill to die on and I wouldn't give my child "just" the polio vaccine because he wants to, based on nothing but his own insecurities, ignorance, and fear. Until he does as much reading and research as you have, it's not really open for further discussion. You can't use reason to defeat his emotion-based arguments, so why bother getting yourself worked up?
 

I'm sorry you're going through this. It's never easy when someone we love tries to bully us. hug.gif

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So let me get this straight:

 

He refuses to read the research you've given him, and refuses to do any research on his own, and his only answer for "Why should we vaccinate our healthy children?" is, "Because that's what most people do!"

 

In my family, the person who does the research makes the decisions. There are certain things that DH leaves up to me, like the children's medical decisions, because I'm willing to spend long hours reading about them. And there are certain things that I leave up to DH, like which cars to buy, because he enjoys researching them and I'd rather watch paint dry. We do sometimes butt heads on some emotionally-charged topics, but the person who has done the most research and has the most logical argument generally decides.

 

And since the default state of the human body is completely vaccine-free, the person pushing vaccination must come up with good, researched, compelling reasons to inject a healthy child with powerful pharmaceutical drugs that carry with them known, documented side effects up to and including death. The burden of proof is on him, mama, and never let him forget it. If he's unwilling to do his own research and come up with some good reasons to vaccinate beyond, "Everyone else is doing it!" then he doesn't get a say--period. Your children's health is way too important to sacrifice to his ego.

 

Personally, it would be my hill to die on and I wouldn't give my child "just" the polio vaccine because he wants to, based on nothing but his own insecurities, ignorance, and fear. Until he does as much reading and research as you have, it's not really open for further discussion. You can't use reason to defeat his emotion-based arguments, so why bother getting yourself worked up?
 

I'm sorry you're going through this. It's never easy when someone we love tries to bully us. hug.gif


BEAUTIFUL post.

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#23 of 25 Old 02-20-2011, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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peainthepond- you hit the nail on the head & you totally rock!

 

I cannot even tell you how many hours I have poured over research over the past 3 yrs.  It could be something like 50 hrs, maybe more.  And most of my data is from gov't websites or is from sources that are verifiable, not "crack-pot" websites.  I actually got Dr Lawrence Palevsky to write to my via e-mail & commended me for my vaccine studies!

 

We had some heated discussions over circ & I won.  I literally told him that I would leave him before I would allow him to circ our child.  I'm not backing down on this & I REALLY appreciate the responses I've gotten here.  Honestly, until lately I haven't been totally anti-vax.  I felt like I would be open to doing some vax in the future.  But with my recent research on natural immunity & finding further data on vax, I just can't do it.  Not only do I think it's wrong, it feels wrong.

 

THANKS MAMAS!

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#24 of 25 Old 07-07-2011, 12:18 AM
 
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I'm late to this, but I wanted to add this link which I personally found helpful. http://thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf


Mother caffix.gif to DD born Jan 2008 and DS born Nov 2011. 

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#25 of 25 Old 07-07-2011, 03:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awallrising View Post

peainthepond- you hit the nail on the head & you totally rock!

 

I cannot even tell you how many hours I have poured over research over the past 3 yrs.  It could be something like 50 hrs, maybe more.  And most of my data is from gov't websites or is from sources that are verifiable, not "crack-pot" websites.  I actually got Dr Lawrence Palevsky to write to my via e-mail & commended me for my vaccine studies!

 

We had some heated discussions over circ & I won.  I literally told him that I would leave him before I would allow him to circ our child.  I'm not backing down on this & I REALLY appreciate the responses I've gotten here.  Honestly, until lately I haven't been totally anti-vax.  I felt like I would be open to doing some vax in the future.  But with my recent research on natural immunity & finding further data on vax, I just can't do it.  Not only do I think it's wrong, it feels wrong.

 

THANKS MAMAS!


i would also be threatening to leave him if he insisted on injecting DS without doing any research on the issue.  How would he feel if your DS got the shot and had a life threatening reaction? would he argue with you about it then?   would he tell  you the dr said its not from the shot and believe the dr over you?  Sorry you have to go thru this, but stick to your guns, your child counts on you for his health now and for the rest of his life. 

 

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