Constant pressure to vaccinate and having more children - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 23 Old 05-14-2011, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I tend to worry a bit about the future as I see the constant pressure to vaccinate, the mandates continually increasing, and the exemptions getting tighter and tighter.  I worry that in the future we will have very little (if any) choices regarding vaccinations.  I have a toddler who is unvaxed and I feel strongly about that.  I very much want another baby but the future scares me.  I see where we are today and worry that it's only going to get worse, and I worry about required (versus "recommended") vaccines for everyone.  I could never imagine a newborn being subjected to that and I am very strongly opposed to that and refuse to let that happen. 

 

I guess I'm looking for support and thoughts on this matter. Would you let the pressures today regarding vaccination deter you from having more children? Do you think it possibly could get better? I could be totally irrational with my thinking right now (and I probably am) and hopefully this line of thinking will pass, but for right now at this moment, that's how I feel. I tend to be a worry wart though, so you can be honest and tell me I'm being nuts.  Maybe I need to be more optismistic about the future and hope it will change? It's very possible I am the only one who feels this way and I hate this feeling.

 

Support, thoughts, feelings, opinions?


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#2 of 23 Old 05-14-2011, 05:47 AM
 
sosurreal09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I *feel* like they are going to crack down on the vax thing too and force vax....that being said I don't think that can be a reality within say the next ten years, so if I have my babies now they will be older and if they do force vax they would require less and at least it wouldn't be a newborn.

 

I know this is a "free country" and a lot of people will think that could never become a reality but the fact of the matter is you already can *only* refuse vax on religious grounds in the majority of the country and they can take you to court to *prove* it. That in itself is not freedom.


 Young born-again mama and loving wife peace.gif to DH jammin.gif and SAHP to two crazy girls dust.gifwehomebirth.jpgfly-by-nursing2.gifslinggirl.giffamilybed1.gif and believe gd.giflactivist.gif  signcirc1.gif !

sosurreal09 is offline  
#3 of 23 Old 05-14-2011, 04:01 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

I think you are worrying more than normal about this. It seems extremely likely that there will always be multiple states where the exemption process will be fairly easy. Yes, moving to a different state is a big deal, but so is avoiding having kids when you want them just because of this concern.

 

Also, even though courts have found it unconstitutional to require membership in a specific church for a religious exemption, I think even in New York you would be almost guaranteed a religious exemption if you were a member of the Christian Science church. So if you are not a member of any other church, joining that church would be an option.

 

I think things will get worse for awhile, but not so bad that informed and careful parents won't be able to protect their kids. It's inevitable that eventually the truth about vaccines will be well known to the majority of people, and vaccines will become the new tobacco.

ma2two is offline  
#4 of 23 Old 05-14-2011, 06:14 PM
 
AerialistEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I was thinking the same as Ma2...  I understand your concern, but these things are like pendulums - they swing back and forth a bit until the right balance is found.  On the whole the courts tend to do a fairly good job of sorting things out and having unconstitutional laws struck down - just sometimes it takes a while.

 

I'd say if you were really worried, you can always move to a very liberal state, have a legal defense fund, or join a non-vaxxing religion.  I have a hard time seeing religious exemptions being completely removed. 

 

My other thought is... isolation can breed extremism.  Sometimes if all you are reading is news stories about personal rights being taken away, things can seem much worse than they are.  I find it helpful to balance negative press with press about cases where individual rights are being upheld -- the problem is, a lot of the good stuff just doesn't make the news.  So, maybe pay attention to how much of your life this stuff is taking up and try to find some balance.  Cutting down on my news media input helps me. 

 

I'm not trying to be a unicorn - I know there are some real threats out there... but the pendulum really does swing back and forth.  Sometimes you just have to ride it out.

 

(and for me, I'm joining a non-vaxxing religion)

AerialistEm is offline  
#5 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Thank you guys. You're right. Deep down I know my fears are extremely premature. I don't doubt they could easily strip us of our rights a bit at a time, but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.  Forced vaccination IS my biggest fear and it terrifies me.  I have been reading too much about this lately and obviously need to step back and relax a bit. Before I had my son, I didn't even care about the topic (but then again, it was different years ago and not so bad), but once I had him, boy does that change your whole perspective on things. That's all I have been focused on, mostly to see what we'll be up against when it's time for school.  I've been trying to stay on top of the new bills, etc, so we can be prepared come school time and don't get harrassed when handing in our exemption. 

 

Being a mother is tough and I feel all I do is worry (thank god I am able to contain my worry in "real life," but I'm glad I feel comfortable expressing it herewinky.gif)  Thank god for you guys or I'd be holding all this in!hug2.gif


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#6 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 08:10 AM
 
emmy526's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

Is homeschooling an option for  you? then you wouldn't have to worry about handing in an exemption, i would think. 

emmy526 is online now  
#7 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

Is homeschooling an option for  you? then you wouldn't have to worry about handing in an exemption, i would think. 


I have no problems with homeschooling, but hubby does not agree with it. I did tell him, however, that we may have to if it comes down to having no choice other than getting the shots in order to get into school.  I refuse to do that so homeschooling is certainly my backup plan. 

 

I just read more about the bill they are trying to pass in my state and it states religious exemptions would be suspended by the Commisioner if in an emergency situation, which makes me livid. Do other states have this written in their bills already, and if so, has it ever come down to that? I'm wondering if it ever came down to that, do they warn you prior to forcing vaccination on your child in an emergency situation, or do they just do it right then and there in the school without your knowledge? At that point, I would rather keep him home indefinitely than letting them vaccinate him against my will. I would also like to know their definition of an emergency, like the whole H1N1 "pandemic" that turned out to be nowhere near a pandemic at all?  I honestly have not seen anything close to an emergency situation in the US, but what they consider an emergency is obviously far from a true emergency.

 


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#8 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 09:27 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,028
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

To answer your question simply, no I wouldn't be worried about being able to opt out of vaxes in regard to a future child...

Honestly, what I find more scary, way way more scary than any vax mandate is the general state of the world and bringing a future child into THAT mess...Thats what really scares me when I think about another baby. Vaxes are so far off the radar even though we don't vax. I guess I just don't see a point where you absolutely will NOT be able to opt out in some way. It becomes a major constitutional issue if they literally force people to vaccinate.

Ldavis24 is offline  
#9 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

Honestly, what I find more scary, way way more scary than any vax mandate is the general state of the world and bringing a future child into THAT mess...Thats what really scares me when I think about another baby.
 

Yes, I worry about that too.  Just add it to the list! Boy, do I need a drink tonight or what? This is looking pretty darn good right about now LOL!champagne.gif
 

 


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#10 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 10:44 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,028
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

 


 

Yes, I worry about that too.  Just add it to the list! Boy, do I need a drink tonight or what? This is looking pretty darn good right about now LOL!champagne.gif
 

 

bring on the booze!
 

 

Ldavis24 is offline  
#11 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Great idea, Lauren!

 

This is for all the mamas out there who need a break from life for a minute, who are stressed out whether it be from vaccine mandates, the current state of the world, or anything else that stresses you out from being a mommy, because I sure as hell know I need a break!

 

The first round is on mechampagne.gifchampagne.gifchampagne.gifchampagne.gifchampagne.gif

 

(I'm sorry if you don't prefer Champagne but that seems to be all that we have here at MDCwinky.gif)

 

Bottoms up!!!drink.gif


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#12 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 01:02 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)


In many states, the same vaccine requirements apply to homeschooled children. Homeschooling is a good option for people who want to do it, but only in very rare cases does it need to be done just because of the vaccine issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

Is homeschooling an option for  you? then you wouldn't have to worry about handing in an exemption, i would think. 



 

ma2two is offline  
#13 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 02:22 PM
 
sosurreal09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

So what do home schooled parents do sign their own vax waver?


 Young born-again mama and loving wife peace.gif to DH jammin.gif and SAHP to two crazy girls dust.gifwehomebirth.jpgfly-by-nursing2.gifslinggirl.giffamilybed1.gif and believe gd.giflactivist.gif  signcirc1.gif !

sosurreal09 is offline  
#14 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

 

Also, even though courts have found it unconstitutional to require membership in a specific church for a religious exemption, I think even in New York you would be almost guaranteed a religious exemption if you were a member of the Christian Science church. So if you are not a member of any other church, joining that church would be an option.

 

 

I'm just wondering, if you belong to a religious organization who is opposed to vaccination, and that religious organization even goes as far as provides the religious exemption letter on your behalf (and writes the letter according to the state statute), can they still deny your exemption and question if your beliefs are bona fide, questioning the actual religious group you belong to? I've looked into Christian Science, but I've also found other religious groups opposed to vaccination as well where I would fit perfectly but these groups are most likely not as widely known as Christian Science, so I wonder if they have the capability to even still deny your exemption even IF you are a member of a religious group.  I doubt it would be likely, but can it happen?


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#15 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 02:58 PM
 
sosurreal09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I thought it was more about your religious views as oppose to your groups or churches. I am Christian and a lot of Christians have no issues with vax but I have a lot of philosophical issues with it as well as religious. To me it is against God to vax b/c it interferes with His natural immunity He gave us, makes your blood dirty (several verses talk about keeping your blood clean), and I honor God not man.

Do I think my church would write me a letter? Well IDK I think most of the members vax there...


 Young born-again mama and loving wife peace.gif to DH jammin.gif and SAHP to two crazy girls dust.gifwehomebirth.jpgfly-by-nursing2.gifslinggirl.giffamilybed1.gif and believe gd.giflactivist.gif  signcirc1.gif !

sosurreal09 is offline  
#16 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

I thought it was more about your religious views as oppose to your groups or churches. I am Christian and a lot of Christians have no issues with vax but I have a lot of philosophical issues with it as well as religious. To me it is against God to vax b/c it interferes with His natural immunity He gave us, makes your blood dirty (several verses talk about keeping your blood clean), and I honor God not man.

Do I think my church would write me a letter? Well IDK I think most of the members vax there...

 

You're right...it is supposed to be about personal religious beliefs but my state is getting tighter on that now and it seems you have a better chance of not getting denied if you actually belong to a religious group/church.  Just like you, I also have my own personal religious beliefs regarding God, natural immunity, and injection of foreign substances, but it seems that idea may be less and less acceptable in the near future as my state representatives seem to think people are abusing the religious exemptions. I think it may be best (for my case)if I actually become a member of a non-vaccinating religious organization in case they ever try to give me a hard time or if my own personal religious beliefs are no longer enough to satisfy the state requirements. 
 

 


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#17 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 05:43 PM
 
sosurreal09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

But most religions have vax "loop holes" now, unless you switch religions...

 

That is a rock and a hard place huh?

 

 


 Young born-again mama and loving wife peace.gif to DH jammin.gif and SAHP to two crazy girls dust.gifwehomebirth.jpgfly-by-nursing2.gifslinggirl.giffamilybed1.gif and believe gd.giflactivist.gif  signcirc1.gif !

sosurreal09 is offline  
#18 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 06:42 PM
 
AerialistEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

In regards to your question about emergencies and mandatory vaxxes...

 

You have to think like a lawyer for a minute.  The Constitution is very clear about freedom of religion.  So that's a good thing.  Politicians can't write any old laws - in general laws respect this right.  However, lawyers and politicians also have to give themselves a little wiggle room.  The emergency clause is the wiggle room.  What this REALLY means is if there was ever a MASS OUTBREAK of something very bad, there is some provision in the law to allow the government to mandate vaccinations.  They need to leave themselves this wiggle room so that they aren't blamed if there was a outbreak of polio or something.  Pretty much all states have this as part of the law. 

 

Just because this clause exists doesn't mean it will ever be invoked.  Just like martial law can be declared in a state of emergency.  Just because it CAN, doesn't mean it WILL.  If it was invoked, you would know about it. 

 

Now, also remember, just because something is a law doesn't mean it can't be challenged.  I mean... look at the defense of marriage act or something else that is obviously unconstitutional.  You can always challenge things.  That's how the legal system works.  Yeah, you'd need a really great lawyer and you might lose, but that's the country we live in.  On the whole, it isn't so bad. 

 

AerialistEm is offline  
#19 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 11:23 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

So what do home schooled parents do sign their own vax waver?

 

 

It just depends on the state law. For example, homeschooling parents in California are actually running their own private school, with their kids as the only students. So they are required to have this form on file just like every other student in the state. http://www.cdph.ca.gov/pubsforms/forms/CtrldForms/pm286b.pdf

 

Vaccine waiver forms are not school specific, they are the same for everybody in the state. So if vaccine law applies to homeschoolers, they would sign their state's form and either keep it on file at home, or send it off somewhere, just like a school would. Or, if there is no form, they would write an exemption letter and either keep it on file at home or send it off somewhere, just like a school would.

 
ma2two is offline  
#20 of 23 Old 05-15-2011, 11:40 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

I'm just wondering, if you belong to a religious organization who is opposed to vaccination, and that religious organization even goes as far as provides the religious exemption letter on your behalf (and writes the letter according to the state statute), can they still deny your exemption and question if your beliefs are bona fide, questioning the actual religious group you belong to? I've looked into Christian Science, but I've also found other religious groups opposed to vaccination as well where I would fit perfectly but these groups are most likely not as widely known as Christian Science, so I wonder if they have the capability to even still deny your exemption even IF you are a member of a religious group.  I doubt it would be likely, but can it happen?


Let's assume we're talking about New York for example, because school districts there actually sometimes do extensive "sincerity testing."

Here's a recording on YouTube of one such session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IwwB2ECmxU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjD7TrmngAY&feature=related

I think the above is the worst case scenario. It's an example of what current New York law allows. But many school districts in New York approve exemptions without questioning parents. There is a movement to get a philosophical exemption law passed in New York. I do think that they will eventually be successful.

 

I think if that if the parents in the video belonged to the Christian Science church, and on this form http://www.p12.nysed.gov/sss/schoolhealth/schoolhealthservices/modelreligiousexemptionformmarch10.pdf stated that they were members of the Christian Science church, and gave proof of that, and then explained their beliefs against vaccines in the language of the church, they would have never gotten to the point of having to participate in the sincerely testing.

 

Christian Science is a well-established religion that is known for being against vaccination. Church officials have been the force behind many medical exemption laws. Other religions against vaccination are not as well known. Some are fairly easy to join, and New York is suspicious of some of them. New York law allows (not requires) sincerity testing of anyone applying for a religious vaccine exemption. But realistically, I think members of the Christian Science church have the most protection. I think the only situation where there might be some suspicion is if the parent joined the church very recently, like within months before applying to school.

ma2two is offline  
#21 of 23 Old 05-16-2011, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

There is a movement to get a philosophical exemption law passed in New York. I do think that they will eventually be successful.

 

 

How long has NY been trying to pass this law?  NJ has been trying to do the same since, from what I know, March 2010, calling it a conscientious exemption, but they haven't had any luck. While this would be wonderful for all of those seeking conscientious exemptions, I don't foresee it happening, not in NJ anyway.  Maybe I am just being pessimisticshrug.gif  Maybe your optimism can rub off on me....What is it that makes you feel it will eventually get passed in NY?


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#22 of 23 Old 05-16-2011, 10:04 AM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)


Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

How long has NY been trying to pass this law?  NJ has been trying to do the same since, from what I know, March 2010, calling it a conscientious exemption, but they haven't had any luck. While this would be wonderful for all of those seeking conscientious exemptions, I don't foresee it happening, not in NJ anyway.  Maybe I am just being pessimisticshrug.gif  Maybe your optimism can rub off on me....What is it that makes you feel it will eventually get passed in NY?


I don't know offhand. I'd have to do some research. But I'm really surprised that New Yorkers have been putting up with the current law for so long. I mean, there are some really educated and wealthy people there. It's just a matter of time for them to say, "this sincerity testing thing is ridiculous, let's do whatever is necessary to stop it."

 

New Jersey law is not nearly as strict. March 2010 is not that long ago. These things take a lot longer than that.

ma2two is offline  
#23 of 23 Old 05-16-2011, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Ma2two: I hear ya....Well, I really, really hope they do pass it for NY.  I think if it does pass, it will bode well for other states.  I'm not sure if the movement in NJ actually started in 2010, as I think groups started a petition for folks in NJ to push for the conscientious exemption starting in 2008.  At least it's nice to hear people are fighting back.  I think the whole "sincerity testing" is a joke too. I can't believe they get away with that.  NJ's law isn't good either though.  To my knowledge, NJ is the only state who mandates an annual flu shot for all children for school entrance. I think that is just insane. 


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
Reply

Tags
Vaccinations , Family Planning , Exemption

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off