I am stupid, selfish, crazy and do not understand SCIENCE - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 173 Old 07-24-2011, 08:30 AM
 
member234098's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 3,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
BeckyBird likes this.
member234098 is offline  
#122 of 173 Old 08-07-2011, 05:46 PM
 
Kanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

If they were completely secure with their decision to vaccinate, they wouldn't be abusive and hateful to people that don't. Deep down, they feel uncomfortable that they are taking the risks of vaccines and you aren't.


I agree that the source of the aggression (on both sides of the argument) is due to fear.

 

Non-vaxing parents are afraid that their children might be harmed by vaccines.

 

Vaxing parents are afraid that their children, if they're

a) too young to have been vaccinated

b) belong to the small percentage of people where the vaccine doesn't "take"

will be harmed by un-vaxed kids that have caught one of those diseases, e.g. measels and transmitted it to their kid.

 

Both sides are trying to protect their kids to the best of their ability, it's just that the theory behind what will protect and what will harm a kid is diametrically opposed.

 


fly-by-nursing1.giffamilybed1.gifteapot2.GIFfemalesling.GIFfuzmalesling.giflearning.gifgeek.gif

Kanna is offline  
#123 of 173 Old 08-07-2011, 05:52 PM
 
Kanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by UpToSomeGood View Post

The problem with the anti-vaccination movement is that it's riddled with pseudo-science in with the science.  That can make it an easy target for pro-vaccination people, and can result in throwing out the baby with the bathwater when someone's considering anti-vaccination arguments. 

 

In a sense the only solution for someone to make sense of vaccination is to do a lot of reading for themselves from various sources.  A major problem does rear its head here, though, because it is obviously hard for a layperson to tell junk science from real science.  But in this case it is really true that the mainstream establishment has misinformed the public to some degree.

 

In my own case, I used to be extremely pro-vaccination to the point that I instantly disregarded any anti-vaccination argument as nonsense, because of the perceived reliance on junk science (which isn't true of all arguments of course).  What I found when I really dove into some studies opened my eyes, particularly regarding the pertussis vaccination problem, and how poor vaccination strategies may have exacerbated the pertussis problem by creating a large number of partially suppressed but contagious pertussis cases, along with encouraging the growth of nastier strains of the bug.

 

ETA: Clarified with "perceived"




yeahthat.gif


fly-by-nursing1.giffamilybed1.gifteapot2.GIFfemalesling.GIFfuzmalesling.giflearning.gifgeek.gif

Kanna is offline  
#124 of 173 Old 08-16-2011, 07:35 AM
 
sleeveless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by peainthepod View Post

It's easier to call someone ugly names or insinuate that they're just not smart enough to question the self-proclaimed experts than it is to answer their sincere questions.

 

Questions like:

 

Where are the double-blind placebo safety studies for vaccines? You know, the actual science? Why are new vaccines only tested against older versions of the same vaccine?

 

Where are the studies proving that administering combinations of vaccines, as seen on the current CDC schedule, is safe for all children regardless of size, medical history, allergies, and age?

 

Why can't patients and parents/guardians of patients legally sue pharmaceutical companies for the damages their vaccines cause? Who benefits from such an arrangement?

 

Why are vaccines, unlike every other pharmaceutical drug on the market, assumed by medical professionals and government agencies to be completely safe with almost no chance of side effects or adverse reactions, despite the large volume of documented evidence to the contrary?

 

When did informed consent become less important than vaccine "compliance", and why? Again, who benefits from this wild shift in medical ethics?

 

Why does the pharmaceutical industry wield such enormous power in Washington, and why are the numerous conflicts of interest within the government agencies that shape official vaccine policy never explored by the mainstream media or congressional committee?

 

Oh well, I guess it's just easier to call us stupid and lazy. I'm sure Dr. Offitt would never lie about his own product, and it's just a coincidence that the former head of the CDC now has a very cushy job at Merck. Stop asking questions and by the way, did you hear that Jenny McCarthy posed for Playboy? She can't possibly have anything worthwhile to say. But Amanda Peet? She might just be an actress, but she's a mom too and I trust her.

 

mischievous.gif

 

In all seriousness, I'm sorry you felt hurt and attacked. Plenty of people poo-poohed a link between thalidomide and birth defects at first, but that didn't make the skeptics any less correct. Questioning conventional wisdom is never popular. It doesn't matter though, because the only person who needs to be comfortable with your vaccine decision-making is you. hug.gif




Thank you for this very thoughtful post. I am just about to go see the doctor for my child's physical and anticipate an uncomfortable question about vaxes. I really like this doctor, so it's always difficult to get to this point where I have to say, no, no, NO, politely. It helps to keep in mind the many ways in which my doctor, a very intelligent person, has been brainwashed by medical training and the medical establishment, to which my doctor is very firmly attached. BTW, I like that my doctor is well-trained and well-connected to very good doctors and hospitals, but that does not mean I believe everything my doctor believes and tries to push on me, like vaxes according to the CDC schedule, which I politely refuse to accept.

 

I just ran into a doctor I know who graduated from one of the finest US medical schools and is a doctor at one of the finest hospitals in a major US city. He has young children, and he DOES NOT VAX. I think he's pretty smart, very well-educated and knows a thing or two about science. He says the risks of vaxing are too high, vaxes are not sufficiently tested, the vax schedule is too crowded.

peainthepod likes this.
sleeveless is offline  
#125 of 173 Old 08-16-2011, 10:34 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeveless View Post






Thank you for this very thoughtful post. I am just about to go see the doctor for my child's physical and anticipate an uncomfortable question about vaxes. I really like this doctor, so it's always difficult to get to this point where I have to say, no, no, NO, politely. It helps to keep in mind the many ways in which my doctor, a very intelligent person, has been brainwashed by medical training and the medical establishment, to which my doctor is very firmly attached. BTW, I like that my doctor is well-trained and well-connected to very good doctors and hospitals, but that does not mean I believe everything my doctor believes and tries to push on me, like vaxes according to the CDC schedule, which I politely refuse to accept.

 

I just ran into a doctor I know who graduated from one of the finest US medical schools and is a doctor at one of the finest hospitals in a major US city. He has young children, and he DOES NOT VAX. I think he's pretty smart, very well-educated and knows a thing or two about science. He says the risks of vaxing are too high, vaxes are not sufficiently tested, the vax schedule is too crowded.



wow - those types of docs are so few and far between!

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#126 of 173 Old 08-16-2011, 11:58 PM
 
Marinlea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I really don't get why people post hateful replies, except perhaps that it is easy to spill that stuff when you are looking at a computer screen versus a person's face. And maybe they are bored. And have problems that have nothing to do with vaccines.

 

I'm newly pregnant and have a long way to go before I cross the vaccine bridge. It does seem like there are an awful lot. Varicella? I had chicken pox and it was itchy and ruined my fourth grade spring break, but then I was back on my feet. Rotavirus? A baby with adequate nutrition will fight that off after a few days of diarrhea. (It can be deadly to undernourished children.)

 

But I know for certain I'll be vacc'ing for measles. It can kill or cause neurological damage. It's so important that we remember just what some of these diseases were like. Back before vaccines for pertussis and diphtheria were available, children DIED while their parents watched. We don't see many cases now because most people are vaccinated. But if people stop vaccinating because they think the threat has gone away, it will eventually come back. Maybe not in time to really affect our children, but what about our grandchildren?

 

We all want what's best for our kids and pharmaceutical companies are in it for the money because they are businesses. I hate the way they market drugs, but they have to recoup the money they spend doing the years of research that lead up to FDA approval, otherwise they go bankrupt. But we have debates over whether or not to vaccinate precisely because these companies made great vaccines and the diseases went underground. When vaccines first became available, parents flocked to get them for their kids.

 

I'm not a pharmaceutical rep, I'm a currently unemployed immunologist. And I'll apply for jobs in pharmaceutics because great research is done there, whatever their marketing strategies.

 

Just my two cents. I hope I don't make anyone mad.

erigeron likes this.
Marinlea is offline  
#127 of 173 Old 08-18-2011, 06:27 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinlea View Post

I really don't get why people post hateful replies, except perhaps that it is easy to spill that stuff when you are looking at a computer screen versus a person's face. And maybe they are bored. And have problems that have nothing to do with vaccines.

 

I'm newly pregnant and have a long way to go before I cross the vaccine bridge. It does seem like there are an awful lot. Varicella? I had chicken pox and it was itchy and ruined my fourth grade spring break, but then I was back on my feet. Rotavirus? A baby with adequate nutrition will fight that off after a few days of diarrhea. (It can be deadly to undernourished children.)

 

But I know for certain I'll be vacc'ing for measles. It can kill or cause neurological damage. It's so important that we remember just what some of these diseases were like. Back before vaccines for pertussis and diphtheria were available, children DIED while their parents watched. We don't see many cases now because most people are vaccinated. But if people stop vaccinating because they think the threat has gone away, it will eventually come back. Maybe not in time to really affect our children, but what about our grandchildren?

 

We all want what's best for our kids and pharmaceutical companies are in it for the money because they are businesses. I hate the way they market drugs, but they have to recoup the money they spend doing the years of research that lead up to FDA approval, otherwise they go bankrupt. But we have debates over whether or not to vaccinate precisely because these companies made great vaccines and the diseases went underground. When vaccines first became available, parents flocked to get them for their kids.

 

I'm not a pharmaceutical rep, I'm a currently unemployed immunologist. And I'll apply for jobs in pharmaceutics because great research is done there, whatever their marketing strategies.

 

Just my two cents. I hope I don't make anyone mad.



 I said the same thing to you in another thread. Your posts extolling the virtues of vaccination in general are not in the appropriate forum. This forum is for parents that are not vaccinating. We don't need to hear the same hollow arguements that get hashed out over and over and over and over again in the main forum. If we choose to engage in those debates, we can there. This is a place for like minded unvaccinating parents. Please try and respect that.

 

And because I just can't help myself I will say that all of your points I disagree with wholeheartedly. It does not surprise me that you hold the beliefs that you do however, given that you mostly likely have been involved in mainstream medicine for some time.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#128 of 173 Old 08-18-2011, 03:57 PM
 
Marinlea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I am a newbie to this discussion site and so therefore was not aware of the rules, which some very polite folks have pointed out to me (thank you). I was not in any way rude or insulting to ideas that differ from mine, I therefore am rather discouraged that you would denigrate my viewpoints as "hollow". I have never thought the arguments against vaccinating are hollow and there are some I agree with. The original poster who started this thread had been called "stupid, selfish, crazy, etc" for her opinions. You are doing the same thing to me, albeit in a slightly more polite way.

 

 

I don't mind that you disagree with me and I am proud to have been part of "mainstream" science and medicine for as long as I have. Incidentally, one of the grants I worked on was aimed at understanding the anti-inflammatory effects of green tea in the hopes that this incredibly safe and cheap brew could be used in place of more expensive, synthetic drugs. So we scientists don't just dismiss alternative medicine.

Kanna likes this.
Marinlea is offline  
#129 of 173 Old 08-19-2011, 06:18 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinlea View Post

I am a newbie to this discussion site and so therefore was not aware of the rules, which some very polite folks have pointed out to me (thank you). I was not in any way rude or insulting to ideas that differ from mine, I therefore am rather discouraged that you would denigrate my viewpoints as "hollow". I have never thought the arguments against vaccinating are hollow and there are some I agree with. The original poster who started this thread had been called "stupid, selfish, crazy, etc" for her opinions. You are doing the same thing to me, albeit in a slightly more polite way.

 

 

I don't mind that you disagree with me and I am proud to have been part of "mainstream" science and medicine for as long as I have. Incidentally, one of the grants I worked on was aimed at understanding the anti-inflammatory effects of green tea in the hopes that this incredibly safe and cheap brew could be used in place of more expensive, synthetic drugs. So we scientists don't just dismiss alternative medicine.


The way you choose to interpret my post is not the way it was intended however I do not agree that what I posted was anywhere near calling you stupid or selfish. I also believe that I am entitled to my opinion that certain arguements that appear again and again extolling the virtues of vaccination are hollow. That is not a persoanal attack on you (ie you are stupid etc), unfortunately that is how you have chosen to interpret it and for that I feel badly.  I never want to get off on the worng foot with new posters so let me be the first to apologize for any misunderstandings. I also am quite aware that not all scientists dismiss alternative medicine, so you are right I should not make generalizations. I have somewhat of a cynical view of the pharmaceutical industry in general and while I feel it's great that you are studying things like the effects of green tea. I do not believe it will ever be promoted by mainsream medicine as a alternative to a drug simply because tea cannot make them billions of dollars. In any case in general all I am saying is that your posts maybe better suited for the main forum Rainbow.gif

 

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#130 of 173 Old 08-19-2011, 11:15 AM
 
Kanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinlea View Post

I am a newbie to this discussion site and so therefore was not aware of the rules, ...


 

You're not alone. Same thing happened to me too  ^_^


fly-by-nursing1.giffamilybed1.gifteapot2.GIFfemalesling.GIFfuzmalesling.giflearning.gifgeek.gif

Kanna is offline  
#131 of 173 Old 08-19-2011, 12:03 PM
 
Just Ducky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

 

Selfish because we have enough guts to make an educated decision rather than go with the grain and follow blindly to procedures that can harm our children. Nope!

 


 

I'm a vaxing parent and I lurk around in here from time to time because I frankly agree with the majority of your post. I came into this thread with the intent of assuring the OP that not all vaxing parents have such dim views of non-vaxing parents. I certainly don't. I think we all look at the (shamefully limited) research and make the best decision we are able to make because we all want what's best for our children.

 

I started to read through the thread and was stopped short by the above quoted part of your post. "So, that's what [you] think of us, eh? Just peachy." Shame on you. 

 

@ kathymuggle - You're not stupid or selfish or ignorant. Moms are expected to be their very own Consumer Protection Agency these days because people are able to pass so easily from government regulatory jobs to private market jobs and back again. You're doing the best you can. That's all any of us can do. And if a few people feel the need to be bullies on the internet that speaks volumes about them and says absolutely nothing about you or your decisions. Hang in there and try not to let them get you down too much. hug2.gif

Super~Single~Mama likes this.
Just Ducky is offline  
#132 of 173 Old 08-19-2011, 12:55 PM
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Sorry to break it to you, but some people follow the guidance of their doctors/CDC/AAP (yes, blindly) when it comes to vaccines with no research on their part whatsoever. You may not, but some do.  People who have such anger at nonvaxers (those who call nonvaxers selfish, stupid, and ignorant) have obviously not done enough research to understand why someone would choose not to vaccinate since there are risks involved.  The point is to respect others' decisions, not degrade them. My original post was being directed at those people who feel such animosity to nonvaxers and who can't understand why someone would choose a different path. Now that's ignorance.  We are in the I'm Not Vaccinating forum after all, where I should feel comfortable speaking my mind.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Ducky View Post

 

I started to read through the thread and was stopped short by the above quoted part of your post. "So, that's what [you] think of us, eh? Just peachy." Shame on you. 

 


Loving WAHM to my two little handsome DS's, '08 and '12, and loving wife to DH, '07love.gif

SilverMoon010 is offline  
#133 of 173 Old 08-19-2011, 06:07 PM
 
AllieFaye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 703
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Just my two cents - I have three kids, all with medical exemptions.  I've been attacked for not vaccinating them.  One of my kids' doctors even told me to just disregard the cardiologist order for a medical exemption and vaccinate anyway. There is so much emotion out there regarding what is supposed to be cool-headed science that I've really had my eyes opened.  Even when I list out my kids' medical problems - people will still throw back the same arguments to me that they would to any non-vaxxer.  I didn't choose for my children to have medical problems, but I'm blamed for not vaxing them anyway.  If it were really about science, then the medical exemptions would be better understood or appreciated.

Turquesa and Bokonon like this.
AllieFaye is offline  
#134 of 173 Old 08-25-2011, 09:18 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I think you just have to expect that most vaccinate and will not be accepting of those who do not. Even some who suffer vaccine injury are  reluctant to admit that the vaccine caused the injury or death.

mattemma04 is offline  
#135 of 173 Old 08-25-2011, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I actually have learned somethings from the experience - like perhaps I need to walk away earlier and not engage when people have shown their stripes.  It is a personal growth thing.

member234098 and Marnica like this.
purslaine is offline  
#136 of 173 Old 08-25-2011, 12:43 PM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I actually have learned somethings from the experience - like perhaps I need to walk away earlier and not engage when people have shown their stripes.  It is a personal growth thing.



 Yes, I need to do that too - difficult sometimes isn't it?

member234098 likes this.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#137 of 173 Old 09-03-2011, 04:38 PM
 
sleeveless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by UpToSomeGood View Post

Quote:


I addressed any points you raised.  Your post essentially stated that because you disagree with the methodology of some scientific studies, they are not science.  You seem to be confused about the difference between (what you feel to be) bad science, and un-science, junk science, pseudo-science, whatever you'd like to call it.  Science is not infallible; but realizing that does not make it comparable to junk science.  You used some argumentative rhetoric, but didn't present any support for your idea that your opinion is what divides science from non-science, so I thought the link was apropos.  Your reference to vaccine marketing was squarely off topic.

 

All I'm saying is that some of the anti-vaccination advocates may do more harm for the anti-vaccination cause than good.  I never claimed that you would agree with every scientific study.  (ETA: I don't agree with all of them either.)



I totally agree with UpToSomeGood. The anti-vaccine people shoot themselves in the foot with their weird theories mixed in with valid objections to scientific studies of vaccines.

 

NaturalNews is one example. Today I was reading some very good points on the Natural News website about the new IOM report on vaccine adverse reactions, and then the writer added some weird theories about the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation using vaccines to control populations in underdeveloped countries. I stopped reading at that point, even though the writer was right in questioning the IOM report.

 

I love Jospeh Mercola's website for the great information on it, but I'm really turned off by all the pitches for various supplements and treatments. Pitching all that stuff undermines the validity of the information on the site, which is often very good.

 

Unfortunately, most "normal" doctors, ie physicians who are part of the medical mainstream yet who have concerns about vaccines, keep their heads low. I know a number of physicians who question the safety of vaccines, yet they routinely give vaccines to parents who request them because they have to or they would lose their jobs. One of them told me outright that he does not want to raise a stink, but that he supports parents who think and make vaccine choices on their own. Another told me that he doesn't ever tell his views to his colleagues. He simply keeps his mouth shut. That makes it hard to find these physicians. They keep hidden because they have to, but they think the way we do. That reassures me. When more people object publicly to the supposed safety of vaccines, these doctors will come out of the woodwork, thus invalidating the "pro-vax" side's argument that the only "anti-vax" doctors are quacks and nutters.

 

 

sleeveless is offline  
#138 of 173 Old 09-04-2011, 05:58 AM
 
mama to 2 girls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeveless View Post





. One of them told me outright that he does not want to raise a stink, but that he supports parents who think and make vaccine choices on their own. Another told me that he doesn't ever tell his views to his colleagues. He simply keeps his mouth shut. That makes it hard to find these physicians. They keep hidden because they have to, but they think the way we do. That reassures me. When more people object publicly to the supposed safety of vaccines, these doctors will come out of the woodwork, thus invalidating the "pro-vax" side's argument that the only "anti-vax" doctors are quacks and nutters.

 

 

 

 


I think this is my children's ped... When I took dd1 to the same group but a different location, they made a huge stink about the fact that I refused any vaxes for her. Then I found out about my current ped. and decided I would give it a shot. The rest of the practice is very pro-vax, when you call the number to make an appt. they even state on the recording that if you plan to delay or even selective or even worse eyesroll.gif refuse them all that you had better just hang up and call a different ped. But I just keep my mouth shut and just always make an appt. with her. She is sooo sweet and has never given me a hard time. I had originally decided to selective and delay vax and she was completely fine with that, then I decided to not do any at all and she didn't even bat an eye. She is awesome. I think she must just keep her mouth shut as well, she also makes sure to spend enough time the kids and parents because she always has a pretty long wait time but she is worth the wait. 

 

 

mama to 2 girls is offline  
#139 of 173 Old 09-04-2011, 07:33 AM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeveless View Post



Unfortunately, most "normal" doctors, ie physicians who are part of the medical mainstream yet who have concerns about vaccines, keep their heads low. I know a number of physicians who question the safety of vaccines, yet they routinely give vaccines to parents who request them because they have to or they would lose their jobs. One of them told me outright that he does not want to raise a stink, but that he supports parents who think and make vaccine choices on their own. Another told me that he doesn't ever tell his views to his colleagues. He simply keeps his mouth shut. That makes it hard to find these physicians. They keep hidden because they have to, but they think the way we do. That reassures me. When more people object publicly to the supposed safety of vaccines, these doctors will come out of the woodwork, thus invalidating the "pro-vax" side's argument that the only "anti-vax" doctors are quacks and nutters.

 

 


This is the problem, because these doctors feel they have to keep their opinions to themselves to protect their livelihood and not challenge the status quo of their medical associations, the pharmaceutical companies and the organizations they work for, nothing is going to change. When are they going to come out of the woodwork and stick up for the anti-vaxers if they believe vaccines aren't safe? Isn't now a good time when the IOM is saying vaccines are safe, the UN is about to claim mercury in vaccines is safe and have the nations of the world sign a treaty? On the other hand, having medical doctors that disagree flying under the radar might be a good thing if we get to the point of mandatory mass vaccinations (some flu or whatever pandemic), we might need an underground network of doctors willing to go against the dictates of the government.

 

 

 

SilverMoon010 likes this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is offline  
#140 of 173 Old 09-21-2011, 08:40 PM
 
Ninetales's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've very recently lost my "greenness" when it comes to this topic. I thought that if I just kept explaining my views and telling people what I found then they would see the light and totally get it. As I'm sure you all know that's just not how it goes.

I'm tired. I'm burned out trying to get people to understand. I'm pretty much ready to keep my opinions to myself and keep out of the topic everywhere it comes up. I have family and a few friends who get it and my doctor is supportive of non-vaxing. That's all I need at this point, in addition to faith that someday the truth will be exposed and we'll have safer alternatives to the current situation.

Mama to Elsa Louise: 2/10, 13lbs 8 oz  energy.gifand Oscar Allen: 7/12, 13lbs 8 oz  babyboy.gif

Ninetales is offline  
#141 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 08:10 AM
 
lokidoki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Cackalacky
Posts: 1,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I have been reading this thread for a few reasons ~ 1) I just gave birth 3 months ago to our second son and feel the need to read up again on vaxing issues as my oldest son is 5 1/2 years old and it has been some time since I made the decision to stop all vaccines (he was 4 months old when I decided). And 2) I recently had a run in with my minister and a few other friends regarding the HPV vaccine and it really hurt my feelings.

 

After reading this thread and after much discussion with another likeminded friend I have learned this ~ I made the decision to stop vaxing because it was the decision that sat right with my "mommy gut" and made me feel safest about my own children. I harbor no ill will or even fear of parents who have made the decision to vax. We all want the right to do for our children as we feel most comfortable. What I DO wish is that vaxing parents would "get" that there is good science out there on both sides (obviously I feel there is better science to not vaxing...or I should say there is lack of good science to compel me to vax). I do hate the ideas that I find common among vaxing parents that I am a religious zealot (I am not), an uneducated idiot that is not vaxing because I am afraid my child will be autistic (it is actually the least of my worries...I worry more about auto-immune disorders, allergies, asthma and cancer), or that I got all of my research from Wakefield's studies. I cannot COUNT the times parents have said to me "well you know Wakefield was a fraud" as if he was the absolute only study that spoke out against the dangers of vaxing. As soon as Wakefield is mentioned I do immediately note that I am not the one lacking in my research/studies regarding vaccines.

 

I see it this way ~ if vaccine companies need my children to be vaxed to have their "herd" immunity...then they should invest monies into all kinds of vaccine research instead of paying costly lobby panels to get laws written to protect them or propel their products. But alas it is a "for-profit" business and I am afraid those kinds of studies will greatly harm the bottomline...so instead the fear-mongering continues. I have learned now ~ after 5 1/2 years ~ that I do not share my non-vaxing status until I know I am in safe company (even if it is safe company among vaxing parents who understand my choice) and that a great deal of the vaxing community is afraid because pharmaceutical companies have put the fear into them...so truly it is not their fault!


Wife to DH (06/09/01), Mother to DS coolshine.gif (04/10/06) saynovax.gif and rescuer of dachshunds ~ and joy.gifthat our rainbow1284.gif arrived (06/10/11) safe and sound. Love cd.gif our little one ~ and lactivist.gif

lokidoki is offline  
#142 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 09:14 AM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

I thought I would post a relevant article by Sandy Gottstein entitled The Attempted Hijacking of "Science" by the Ultra Pro-Vaccine Crowd.

 

 

purslaine likes this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is offline  
#143 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Thank you, Mizram!  Great article.

 

Here is quote from it I like:

 

Those who unquestioningly support and promote vaccination while at the same time trivializing vaccine safety concerns have tried to co-opt science as their own private fiefdom

purslaine is offline  
#144 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 11:17 AM
 
sandygottstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Thanks so much for posting my column.  One small request:  if possible could you correct the spelling of my name to "Gottstein", please?  All the best,

Sandy

sandygottstein is offline  
#145 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 11:57 AM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygottstein View Post

Thanks so much for posting my column.  One small request:  if possible could you correct the spelling of my name to "Gottstein", please?  All the best,

Sandy

Oops, I'm sorry. I will fix it.redface.gif

 

I hope you stick around, it would be wonderful to have you here. 

 

 


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is offline  
#146 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 12:00 PM
 
sandygottstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Thank you!  I will sure try!!

sandygottstein is offline  
#147 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 12:02 PM
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)

Hello Sandy!  It's great to hear from you!

 

I like this point in particular--

"It is simply wrong to suggest that anecdotal evidence, which is based on observation, i.e., a fundamental part of scientific research, is inherently useless information.  It should be a starting point and nothing less. "

 

Nothing Less indeed!!

purslaine likes this.

               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

beckybird is online now  
#148 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 12:41 PM
 
sandygottstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Thank you.  It's really hard to believe the stuff they try and pull.  It's as if they are trying to make the case that science is conducted w/a paper bag over your head!

 

I like to call it public health's "ostrich policy":  what you don't know can't hurt you.

 

 

sandygottstein is offline  
#149 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 12:43 PM
 
sandygottstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

In a way, they are acting like the Church did re: Galileo.  Here he had all these observations, but since it violated their belief system, they weren't interested and, in fact, tried to suppress him and his work.

sandygottstein is offline  
#150 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 01:50 PM
 
peainthepod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Chasing sanity
Posts: 2,342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I think there's also a powerful personal stake in believing the prevailing mythology that vaccines are safe and effective. No one wants to think they've harmed innocent children through quackery or because they fell for sleazy scaremongering and marketing ploys. It's much easier and safer, psychologically, to attack the messenger than it is to admit you might have been wrong, especially when the stakes are so high.

 

When you have all of the most well-funded, powerful authorities telling you that vaccines are completely safe and that fears about side effects and adverse reactions and damage to long-term health are overblown and paranoid, it must be tempting to comfortably believe that...especially if you vaccinated your own children, or have given countless thousands of doses to children over the years. It's hard to swim against the current, and even harder if doing so might involve admitting to a serious, irrevocable mistake. greensad.gif

 

Obviously, not all vaccinating parents fall into the above category, but I think cognitive dissonance and outright denial play a huge role in the vehemence with which many vaccinating parents and vaccine peddlers attack vaccine-free families. How dare we not make the "sacrifice" (a tacit admission, that) they did by refusing to give our healthy children powerful pharmaceutical drugs? I find their anger and hostility very telling and frankly, it only reinforces my belief that the evidence supporting mandatory one-size-fits-all vaccination is virtually nonexistent. If vaccines were so self-evidently safe and effective, they'd sell themselves.


Loving wife partners.gif and mama to my sweet little son coolshine.gif (Fall 2008) and a beautiful baby girl babyf.gif(Fall 2010)

 

When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. --George Bernard Shaw

peainthepod is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off