I am stupid, selfish, crazy and do not understand SCIENCE - Page 6 - Mothering Forums
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#151 of 173 Old 09-22-2011, 01:52 PM
 
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Well said.

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#152 of 173 Old 09-24-2011, 02:14 PM
 
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Thanks, Mirzam!

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#153 of 173 Old 09-24-2011, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sandygottstein View Post

In a way, they are acting like the Church did re: Galileo.  Here he had all these observations, but since it violated their belief system, they weren't interested and, in fact, tried to suppress him and his work.


 

Indeed.  Among the most fanatical of the pro-vax crowd, I've seen behavior that gets downright fascist.  Take this piece, for example.  It first assumes without proving that all vaccines are safe no matter what.  Then it generalizes what critics are expressing and denounces them all as "dangerous."  Not wrong, not scientifically inaccurate.  Just "dangerous."  The article doesn't refute facts and evidence, such as those presented in your article, with countering facts and evidence.  Like intellectual dissenters of political dictatorships, you and other vaccine skeptics are just denounced as "dangerous" because you're questioning the dominant culture and prevailing ideology.

 

I watched a fascinating interplay occur between vaccine profiteer Paul Offit and Robert Sears, author of The Vaccine Book.  For simply questioning aluminum content in vaccines and proposing getting the vaccines at different times to be on the safe side and avoid heavy aluminum exposure, the decidedly pro-vaccine Dr. Sears was branded with the Scarlett Letter...A for Anti-Vax.  Definitely read through it when you get a chance.

 

From Offit: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full

From Sears: http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/response-dr-offit%E2%80%99s-misleading-and-inaccurate-review-vaccine-book-pediatrics-january

Reader Responses: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full/reply#pediatrics_el_49911

 

There no doubt in my mind that physicians risk being anathematized from their profession if they don't conform to prevailing medical dogma.  This phenomenon explains a previous poster's observation that the calmer and more "normal" doctors are so quiet on this issue.  I am grateful, however, that some physicians are starting to take a stand, show some flexibility, and be honest about the doubts that DO exist with the current vaccine schedule.

 

And I couldn't agree more with you that science is an ongoing, ever-changing, ever-evolving process involving rigorous inquiry.  There's a saying that in research, two questions should grow from every one answer.  In my coursework on research methods, we discussed at great length the phenomenon of premature closure of inquiry.  The parameters of human knowledge would be infinite if it didn't happen.  

 

For this reason, I grimace whenever I hear somebody essentially say, "The Science has spoken, so shut up already."  Translation: "I finally found/conducted/manipulated/interpreted research and/or an authoritative opinion that appears to confirm my biases and prejudices.  Please ensure the continuity of this status quo by not asking further questions or expressing any skepticism." eyesroll.gif  A shorter translation: "Whoopeeeeee!  Research results that I like!!!" 

 

Those who practice this form of sophistry invoke the name of Science to buttress their agenda with as much faith as a religious person invoking the name of God.   If the Devil can interpret the Scriptures to suit his purpose (to paraphrase Shakespeare), then so, too, can he interpret the all of the data surrounding the vaccine issue (a warning to pro-vaxxers and vaccine skeptics alike!)  A couple of my vaxxing friends, with an air of sanctimony that rivals any church lady, have explained to me, "Well, we're pro-science, so we vaccinate the kids."  I invariably responded, "Well, we're pro-science, so we selectively vaccinate because we haven't found solid and independent science to support the current vaccine schedule."  Silence prevails.  Because they haven't, either.   

Sorry, Charlie, but if you wanna be "pro-science," you're going to have to be a LEE-TLE bit more critical and skeptical....

 

 


In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
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#154 of 173 Old 09-25-2011, 01:49 PM
 
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Thank you, Turquesa, for the links and incredibly thoughtful, well-spoken post.  It is because of parents like you and others posting here that I have not lost hope, after all these years. 

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#155 of 173 Old 09-25-2011, 10:28 PM
 
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Well, I managed to get myself embroiled in a blog that I think proves the points I made in my most recent column, "The Attempted Hijacking...".  Here's a link to that blog: http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-gl-reimer-hpv-20110922,0,1457704.column

 

I welcome your opinions/reactions/comments.

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#156 of 173 Old 09-26-2011, 11:55 AM
 
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I hope I'm not posting too often, but I just wanted to add that if anyone things I mishandled things, I would very much appreciate knowing that.  All the best, Sandy

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#157 of 173 Old 09-26-2011, 12:07 PM
 
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You are not posting too often! We need all the help we can get. Speaking out is so important, and I will reply to that article today.


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#158 of 173 Old 09-26-2011, 05:33 PM
 
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Thank you, BeckyBird.  I look forward to hearing your opinion.

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#159 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygottstein View Post

Well, I managed to get myself embroiled in a blog that I think proves the points I made in my most recent column, "The Attempted Hijacking...".  Here's a link to that blog: http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-gl-reimer-hpv-20110922,0,1457704.column

 

I welcome your opinions/reactions/comments.


I read it.  You did a good job of making your points while not stooping to a horror-match with W&N.

 

To me it was very clear he was simply trying to discredit anything anyone who had reservations about vaccines said.  He did not add much to the discussion - just pointed out things he perceived as flaws by others.  Sort of like politicians who blast the other side without putting forth much info on their own platform.

 

 

 

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#160 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 08:57 AM
 
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Thank you, Kathy. 

 

BTW, last time I ran into him was about 6 months ago at HuffPo.  I haven't commented on a blog since having to deal with him then, until now.

 

 

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#161 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 09:14 AM
 
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He's a tough nut to crack! While we can't change his mind, we have a better chance of reaching those who are undecided. This is why we have to continue.

 

By the way, they are going door to door, delivering vaccines now. We need to fight this.

http://natomas.news10.net/news/community/84327-natomas-school-officials-go-door-door-find-unvaccinated-students

 

Get the *bleep* out of my house...I love her reaction!


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#162 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 12:46 PM
 
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Just got reading that article and comments Sandy

 

You did a lovely job and I admire your tenacity. I myself do not have the energy nor the desire to engage with zealots like W&N. People like like PISS ME OFF and I don't deal well with people that piss me off! I agree with Beckybird. I will limit my efforts to trying to educate and reach those that have concerns already and are undecided, There is no reasoning with the likes of W&N. Glad you are here!


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#163 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 01:13 PM
 
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Thank you both!  I really try not to engage with W&N and usually do not.  He just shows up when I have posted something somewhere and I try and respond until I have reached my limit with him (hoping that it is at a point where most readers will understand my reluctance to continue).  Of course he is blasting me over my no longer responding, saying I am the "snotty" one (I never put it that way about him) and other equally outrageous things, including referring to "big-girl panties".  It is really quite stressful and not all that good for me, to be honest.  Which is why I don't post on blogs all that often.

 

Of course, I can't help but wonder if he is a paid shill.

 

If anyone is interested, here's the link to my columns:

 

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/past_scandals.htm

 

I used to call my column "Scandals", but have changed it to "Sandy's Column - Shining a light on the vaccine debate".  (The link remains, however!)

 

Nice to be here with such a welcoming and supportive group.

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#164 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 02:01 PM
 
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In case some of you don't know about Vaccination News, it is the only place on the internet with all sides of the controversy.  We post every day (I post at the top, almost every day, and there are semi-auto postings from Google every day.  I say "semi" because I actually have to "publish" them.)

 

If you want to receive notice when the news has been posted every day, send me an email to me at sandy@vaccinationnews.com with "subscribe daily updates" in the subject line.

 

Vaccination News has now been updated today: http://www.vaccinationnews.com

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#165 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 02:21 PM
 
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I gave up trying to make people understand that there isn't just one right way of doing things.  It was only making me pull my hair out.


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#166 of 173 Old 09-27-2011, 10:03 PM
 
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Hi

 

I've been following the discussion here. I'm anti-vax - based on investigation over a long time and reading widely in science and looking at the stats.

One thing that nailed the pro-vax argument to the wall, was that when you look at all the stats in the official Year Books from the Australian Bureau Of Statistics ( www.abs.gov.au ) between 1884 and 2010 you see clearly death between ages 0-5 for children from say measles declined by 85% before 1950 all by itself. Wow - why? Nutrition and living conditions. Create 3rd world conditons with open sewers and crowded housing and poor diet and...... disease is rampant...just like the 3rd world...no surprises there. London in the 1800s would have been the same living conditions as poor african nations now.

 

As to your comment about trying to convince people not to vax - its a double gotcha and subtle social engineering at play - the govt in Australia links family assistance handouts to vaccination. It is illegal to exclude any child on basis of vaccination in australia.

 

Your points earlier about not also explaining about fluoride and CS etc after comingout not supporting vaxes - are good points.

 

Vaccination is a powerful social engineering tool - most people are well meaning, however years of govt spin of making scientists look like benevolent demi-gods and humanist saints is pure propaganda and also makes anyone who would question vaxes a "loony" in the eyes of the masses .

It seems there is a reasonable link between education and vaccination, such that smarter people dont vax as much. Hmm....

 

Women too want to do the right thing, and I think peer pressure for women amongst women is huge from what I have seen....so to say no to vaxes I think requires huge ammounts of backbone for women....I could be wrong here but this comment is a FWIW and could get beaten up  ;-)

 

I doubt you can convince people not to vax - once they vax thier kids to question it makes them look like a bad parent, but to go against risks social ridicule. Personally, I'd rather be an outcast and be healthy.....

 

The hysteria about vaxes seems to be ramping up as people are waking up, so they hype it all up again. My guess is soon there will be another deliberatly created ( deliberately engineered ) bird flu "scare" and this has the effect of keeping the anti vaxers in society "in line" and letting people turn on anti-vax "heretics" within their midst, to silence them.

 

I have seen the powers that be use blunt trauma ( so to speak ) to keep society in line. Its ugly but as they crave power with an otherworldy lust, the same people cant tolerate dissent. Watch for jail time for people who dare question the paradigm as they make examples of them.

 

A hint I might put forward - home schooling may become our only option in years to come.

 

Glad I came past here - its enjoyable watching people who actually have brains and use them with loads of use common sense to discuss stuff rationally.

 

Qudos to all

 

:-)

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#167 of 173 Old 09-28-2011, 05:39 AM
 
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Steve, great post! Welcome!

 

We watched a documentary on North Korea last night. From an outsider's point of view, we can clearly see that Kim Jong Il is not a god. Yet, the citizens believe he is the great leader who can do no wrong. (If they don't, it's a lifetime of prison camp for them and their family.)

 

I see similarities here in the USA....not so extreme, yet, but well on the way. How people seem to have dogmatic faith in our government, and it can do no wrong. If a governmental organization makes a claim, then it must be absolute truth, and any person with a different opinion is wrong....a heretic.

You see this with the FDA....if they say something is good, then it must be good. AMA.....whatever they say is the truth. CDC....you get the picture.

This extends out to pharmaceutical companies. Even if there were terrible problems with a drug, and proof of a cover up,  the public continues to give them chance after chance. This is because the gov't backs the companies, and often, the same people work between the companies. Revolving door. Can do no wrong. They believe the government and large organizations are incapable of any wrongdoing whatsoever. They do not understand that this is propaganda at work.

 

It is only when you wake up  and realize that our government is capable of making mistakes. Any government is--after all, they're just people, you know. Sometimes, there are bad people in high places. You need to see the corruption for what it is, and hold them accountable. Don't be like the mother who cannot believe her child can do no wrong. If little Billy is punching girls, you need to face the problem to try and fix it. Don't pretend like it isn't happening. Corruption exists everywhere, and people can clearly recognize it in other countries--just not their own. Once you take a real, unbiased look at your own country, you will see it clear as day. This is the only way to improve, by recognizing a problem and taking action. It will be detrimental to our wonderful free country if people continue to deny there is a problem. There are so many good, well-meaning people out there, and once they see what is going on, it is through them (us) that a change can be made!

 

I'm tired of this belief that vaccines, the companies that make them, and the organizations that promote them are infallible. They are not!

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               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#168 of 173 Old 09-28-2011, 06:53 AM
 
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Quote:
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Thank you both!  I really try not to engage with W&N and usually do not.  He just shows up when I have posted something somewhere and I try and respond until I have reached my limit with him (hoping that it is at a point where most readers will understand my reluctance to continue).  Of course he is blasting me over my no longer responding, saying I am the "snotty" one (I never put it that way about him) and other equally outrageous things, including referring to "big-girl panties".  It is really quite stressful and not all that good for me, to be honest.  Which is why I don't post on blogs all that often.

 

Of course, I can't help but wonder if he is a paid shill.

 

If anyone is interested, here's the link to my columns:

 

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/past_scandals.htm

 

I used to call my column "Scandals", but have changed it to "Sandy's Column - Shining a light on the vaccine debate".  (The link remains, however!)

 

Nice to be here with such a welcoming and supportive group.


I love your site and have been a long time viewer and supporter (paid for it when it was a pay site!) I know it has been a financial struggle to keep it up and running and I wish I had a million dollars to give you go it will always be a resource for us! Keep up the great work. We need more people out there like you!

 

As for Mothering - yes overall it is a wonderfully supportive place, but make no mistake, there are several W&N's around here as well. If it were not for the forum rules and guidelines their posts would sound just like those of W&N. I used to be a lot more outspoken and I posted alot more, but I suppose I have grown weary of the bickering that tends to occur. I just happened to take the Myers-Briggs personality test recently and now have a crystal clear understanding of why I have always hated debate and conflict!!
 

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#169 of 173 Old 09-28-2011, 11:43 AM
 
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Thank you, Marnica, for your ongoing support of me and the site.  Thankfully, it's now set up to post semi-automatically a variety of Google alerts (I only have to spend a few moments publishing it every day), but the rest I am doing manually myself, mostly just during the week (now taking weekends off), those links posting at the top.  So it looks like we can continue indefinitely, at least with the "autos", even if I am not up to posting.  That is a big relief to me as it is almost impossible to get funding for what most people think they should get for free and I can no longer pay others to do the work. 

 

I'm still hoping to get funding to pay me for my time via Foundations and individual contributions.  I have spent more money than even I can imagine on the site and have never gotten a cent for my work.  Wish me luck!!!

 

As for the point Steve made about measles deaths declining prior to vaccination, I posted long ago a graph using CDC statistics: http://www.vaccinationnews.com/diseases_and_vaccines/measles_deaths_graph.htm

 

Of course pro-vax people tried to characterize the graph as "misleading".  You can read more about that here: 

Shoot First, Don't Ask Questions Later

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/2003/Sep_12/Scandal66.htm

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#170 of 173 Old 09-28-2011, 03:05 PM
 
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I'm still there arguing over the news article. So far, I've been accused of endangering the public, of taking advantage of herd immunity, of imagining adverse reaction risks, of being anti-science, and the best one so far--abusing my children. I brought up the possible risk of a shedding vaccinated kid infecting my unvaccinated kid, and apparantly, this thought process is abusive. What? Ok.

 

When you break it down, they really do not have a strong case. It immediately resorts to name calling, with the same old, played-out terms. It's not working so much for them any more. Vaccines do have a dark side, and they will not acknowledge this at all. This is where they lose on the debate, for their inability to admit the down side of vaccines. Or, the way they brush off adverse reactions like they are not important.

 

Parents need to know both sides of the vaccine issue, so they can decide which risk to take. They do not need to be guilted into choosing a side! Wow, the way some of these people talk--they would give up their rights as well as yours, if they could make vaccines mandatory.

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               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#171 of 173 Old 09-28-2011, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm still there arguing over the news article. 



You brave soul.

 

 

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#172 of 173 Old 09-28-2011, 03:58 PM
 
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Lol!! Instead of addressing each person and defending myself, I'm pushing forward with examples. The issue is not so much about me, but more about getting the information out there. I don't like being called names though! In their defense, they truly believe my kids are a threat to theirs, so I do understand where they're coming from.

 

I want to know the truth, and nothing more. If I am completely wrong, I want to know. If all this time, vaccines have been 100% good and I've been wrong, I want to know. But, from everything I read, this is not what I'm finding. The more I read, the more I learn. There is a gray area with vaccines, contrary to mainstream belief. There is a risk, and it should be up to the parent to decide if this is right for the child. As for the whole herd immunity argument, that will continue to go round and round, with no end in sight.

 

 


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#173 of 173 Old 09-28-2011, 04:24 PM
 
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Hi,

 

 

Well its intersting to watch how the powers that be handle their Australian serfs - Australians at birth have built in BS detectors that serve them well. Where Australians fall down is the peer group thing. I think the powers that be here are cunning and dont completely smother/bully people with agressive pro-vax propaganda, rather they hold back a bit and appeal to the strong strain of "common sense" that seems to exist in most Australians, and also play on the fear of diseases ....

 

In the US from what I can see they just seem come down on vaccine dissenters ( realists ) like jackbooted thugs. I'm just amazed Americans put up with it. Perhaps I dont understand the US culture as well as I thought.......

 

During the last ( I'm sure it wont be the last... )  "bird flu" ( propaganda and population conditioning exercise), ads would come on the tv from the govt for the latest concoction to be jabbed into people. They stopped it when quite a few children would up in hospital in Western Australia and the WA Chief Medico ordered a stop when kids started collapsing from the jab and having massive seizures.... 

The game was up as it emerged the WHO were also in it up to their eyeballs in corruption and people didnt get sick beyond a bit of a flu......big deal...

 

My dad used to be pro-vax, although hes also an economist. Once I explained that the govt ( www.abs.gov.au ) stats showed that vaccines didnt work though looking at stats of childhood infections or deaths 1884-2010 , he went quiet on the subject. Its one thing to have an opinion, its another to be able to statistically show you can back it up.  Its a very powerful death blow to the vaccine paradigm....assuming people will listen of course.

 

 

As to the mythical "Herd Immunity" :

 

 

Its all based on the faulty premise that vaccines prevent disease. 

Herd immunity is a false concept that was invented to justify vaccinating everyone.

 

By pedalling this false premise, it justifies social pressure to vaccinate everyone and "justifies" the damage to a few to "protect the greater good".

 

Herd immunity can be stopped dead in its tracks b showing stats of the 1880s-2010 graphs of disease - the slope of the graph before and after vaccines were introduced doesnt change at all, which says in the language of common sense that there was no impact by vaccines.

 

If there was an impact by vaccines, you would have seen the slope of the graph change in some way as disease/death rates increased or decreased accordingly.

 

These graphs are very powerful as it demolishes the vaccine argument on multiple levels :

 

(1) There is no imapct - therefore vaccines dont work. Ouch.

 

(2) Vaccines damage people - therefore the companies should be criminally liable ( but the govt exempts them from prosecution -  why? )

 

(3) The social engineering tool of vaccination to control the population and possible State harassment - is removed.

 

(4) The state is keen to control us including our own bodies - vaccines basically put your child ( and you ) under control by the State.

 

(5) The people realise they have been duped, and get very angry with predictable consequences...this is why they create such hysteria to swamp people with emotion and silence critics when they start getting air time ( like Michelle Bachmann on Leno ).

 

Unfortuantely it seems that the bulk of the population are ignorant by accident, but are easily manipulated and who respond well to emotion primarily.

 

 

Have a good weekend all!

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

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