I am stupid, selfish, crazy and do not understand SCIENCE - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I was on a more mainstream board, and dared to admit I do not vax.  I was pretty much bombarded with demands that I tell them why I do not vax and present research.  I did tell them my reason  (alert!  This gave them all sorts of fodder) but refused to get into presenting research papers and such.  I was pretty dang sure by this point any research I presented would have been met with scorn.  

 

So - want to know what some vaxxers think of us?

-we are stupid

-we do not understand research or even what research means

-we do not understand SCIENCE.  (science is a God)

we are selfish.  We are not contributing to herd immunity

-if we were unselfish, not stupid or understood science we would vax,  That is their evidence.

-the only, only reason to not vaccinate is if your child has a medical issue that makes vaxxing not appropriate.

 

 

To be honest I could use a hug.

 

To think I naively thought most parents were live and let live - you do what you think is best for your kid, and I will do what is best for mine.  

 

I will also take any kind words - but be careful if you care about such things as I am sure some of them are watching (see troll thread) and might cut and paste.

 

 

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#2 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 09:06 AM
 
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That's funny, because I know several scientists (biologists, clinical pharmacists, actual medical doctors, etc.) who don't vaccinate.  So I guess they must just fall under the "selfish" category instead of the "ignorant of science" category.

 

I think it's probably easy for some people to judge others for not vaxing - until they watch their child have a vaccine reaction.  When you realize it could be a one in a million chance and then it's YOUR child that it's happening to, it's pretty easy to stop caring about the Science and start caring more about the actual impact on your child and family.

 

And even if it hasn't happened to your own child, knowing that it could, and being more confident in the body's ability to handle disease better than a vaccine injury seems to be not well understood by many pro-vaxers (I openly admit I was this way - I didn't know anything about the diseases and got my son fully vaccinated, which I now regret after his reactions).

 

I like this article.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2010/02/28/vaccine-myths-round-four/

 

and this one especially.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/12/15/vaccines-safe-parents-dangerous/

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#3 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Those articles were great (and echo my recent experience very well).  Particularly the second one.  Thank you!

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#4 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 10:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

  

 

So - want to know what some vaxxers think of us?

-we are stupid

-we do not understand research or even what research means

-we do not understand SCIENCE.  (science is a God)

we are selfish.  We are not contributing to herd immunity

-if we were unselfish, not stupid or understood science we would vax,  That is their evidence.

-the only, only reason to not vaccinate is if your child has a medical issue that makes vaxxing not appropriate.

 


So, that's what they think of us, eh? Just peachy.

 

Now, here's the truth:

 

Nonvaxers/delayed/selective vaxers:

 

1.  Are highly educated,informed people. They base their decisions on what THEY have researched as parents, not what some large organization/corporations filled with greed who has no interest in their children's health tells them what to do.  Yes, these parents are smart enough to weigh risks vs. benefits.

 

2.  Believe there is a ton of research lacking on the safety of vaccines (i.e. safety of multiple vaccines given at once, long-term effects, etc), particularly when the schedule has tripled over the years and is required to be given to newborns!

 

3. Believe there are far too many conflicts of interests conducting the so-called vaccine-connected research.

 

4.  Do not buy into all of the fear-mongering put out there by the mainstream media and can easily look objectively at each disease and dertermine whether or not it is that big of a risk.  Many diseases are treatable and are easily overcome by healthy children.  Vaccine injuries are not as easily treatable, if at all.

 

5.  Do not care to be referred to as sheeple and lumped in the category of a "herd," since they have a mind of their own and the ability to make their OWN decisions.

 

6.  Knows science has proven to fail FAR too many times and is most certainly FAR from perfect.  When it comes to infants/children, common sense far outweighs any science out there, particularly when there are so many more vaccines required these days.

 

7. Selfish? Really?  Selfish because we have enough guts to make an educated decision rather than go with the grain and follow blindly to procedures that can harm our children. Nope!

 

Hugs to you OPhug2.gif

 

I would stay away from those sites if they bother you.  Mainstream sites are normally just that....people brainwashed by the mainstream media.  You are doing what you feel is best for your children and that's all that matters. Not what a bunch of strangers have to say.  As long as you feel educated on the subject, you're good.

 

 

 


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#5 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 11:45 AM
 
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I trust you have learned a valuable lesson about birth boards and other mainstream baby sites. 

 

Don't expect so much goodwill and generosity of spirit from strangers on the internet.  Women are quick to crucify one another for any real or imagined straying from the narrow lines of acceptable behavior.  New moms are the worst because they are filled with insecurity and guilt for their own imperfections.  Scapegoating is much easier than dealing with your feelings of inadequacy.  "Sure, I've got problems but I'm not as bad as THAT woman."

 

Do yourself a favor and get off the baby forums. 

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#6 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by AerialistEm View Post

I trust you have learned a valuable lesson about birth boards and other mainstream baby sites. 

 

Don't expect so much goodwill and generosity of spirit from strangers on the internet.  Women are quick to crucify one another for any real or imagined straying from the narrow lines of acceptable behavior.  New moms are the worst because they are filled with insecurity and guilt for their own imperfections.  Scapegoating is much easier than dealing with your feelings of inadequacy.  "Sure, I've got problems but I'm not as bad as THAT woman."

 

Do yourself a favor and get off the baby forums. 


It is not a baby forum but a more mainstream parenting board.  Otherwise you are right.  Some people do speculate that baby boards are the worst, and mothers have mellowed by the time their kids get older.  This is sad because I think new moms can really be vulnerable.

 

I have learned a lesson - do not post your non vax status on mainstreams sites or in untried forums.  

 

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#7 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 12:24 PM
 
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I agree with all of the above - I have stopped going to mainstream boards after learning the hard way as a new mom as well.

 

As for some people thiniking non-vaxers are everything the OP found on that board - We've had the same things said to us right here on MDC. The judgement may be veiled or less prevelant, but make no mistake, it is certainly here.

 

as an aside - this blog post by Hilary Butler sums it up nicely. http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Cognitive_dissonance_or_being_deceived/

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#8 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 12:33 PM
 
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I know what you mean hug2.gif

 

I went to some baby board to ask for some info on vaxes and got incredibly offensive responses - was not even considering of non-vaxing at the time, just had some questions.  Didn't realize what a mine field this topic is.  Some poster kindly suggested MDC instead.

 


Pro rights (vaxes).
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#9 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 03:52 PM
 
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It's easier to call someone ugly names or insinuate that they're just not smart enough to question the self-proclaimed experts than it is to answer their sincere questions.

 

Questions like:

 

Where are the double-blind placebo safety studies for vaccines? You know, the actual science? Why are new vaccines only tested against older versions of the same vaccine?

 

Where are the studies proving that administering combinations of vaccines, as seen on the current CDC schedule, is safe for all children regardless of size, medical history, allergies, and age?

 

Why can't patients and parents/guardians of patients legally sue pharmaceutical companies for the damages their vaccines cause? Who benefits from such an arrangement?

 

Why are vaccines, unlike every other pharmaceutical drug on the market, assumed by medical professionals and government agencies to be completely safe with almost no chance of side effects or adverse reactions, despite the large volume of documented evidence to the contrary?

 

When did informed consent become less important than vaccine "compliance", and why? Again, who benefits from this wild shift in medical ethics?

 

Why does the pharmaceutical industry wield such enormous power in Washington, and why are the numerous conflicts of interest within the government agencies that shape official vaccine policy never explored by the mainstream media or congressional committee?

 

Oh well, I guess it's just easier to call us stupid and lazy. I'm sure Dr. Offitt would never lie about his own product, and it's just a coincidence that the former head of the CDC now has a very cushy job at Merck. Stop asking questions and by the way, did you hear that Jenny McCarthy posed for Playboy? She can't possibly have anything worthwhile to say. But Amanda Peet? She might just be an actress, but she's a mom too and I trust her.

 

mischievous.gif

 

In all seriousness, I'm sorry you felt hurt and attacked. Plenty of people poo-poohed a link between thalidomide and birth defects at first, but that didn't make the skeptics any less correct. Questioning conventional wisdom is never popular. It doesn't matter though, because the only person who needs to be comfortable with your vaccine decision-making is you. hug.gif


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When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. --George Bernard Shaw

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hug.gif You said you needed a hug. Here it is. winky.gif


Knowledge is power.

But only as powerful as the mind which grasps it, reading.gif the heart which believes in it, heartbeat.gif and the hands which wield it.goodvibes.gif

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#11 of 173 Old 06-28-2011, 04:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I was on a more mainstream board, and dared to admit I do not vax.  I was pretty much bombarded with demands that I tell them why I do not vax and present research.  I did tell them my reason  (alert!  This gave them all sorts of fodder) but refused to get into presenting research papers and such.  I was pretty dang sure by this point any research I presented would have been met with scorn.  

 

So - want to know what some vaxxers think of us?

-we are stupid

-we do not understand research or even what research means

-we do not understand SCIENCE.  (science is a God)

we are selfish.  We are not contributing to herd immunity

-if we were unselfish, not stupid or understood science we would vax,  That is their evidence.

-the only, only reason to not vaccinate is if your child has a medical issue that makes vaxxing not appropriate.

 

 

To be honest I could use a hug.

 

To think I naively thought most parents were live and let live - you do what you think is best for your kid, and I will do what is best for mine.  

 

I will also take any kind words - but be careful if you care about such things as I am sure some of them are watching (see troll thread) and might cut and paste.

 



hug2.gif

I got into a heated conversation with friends the other day with the exact same arguments.  Luckily, it stayed friendly and I held my own pretty well, but it's hard sometimes to have to be "on" all of the time because you never know if you'll have had 2 glasses of wine and have to slur out your reasons in as intelligent a way as possible.LOL  I was happy to be able to point out several things that they didn't know and I listened as well as I could to thier points (of course they had some good one because they're smart people;))  You just have to agree to disagree.  If we didn't already feel that something was off with vaccines, we'd never have searched out the information.  If you already trust vaccines and are invested in the idea of vaccines, then you're going to look for information that confirms what you think.  Lots of intelligent, rational people are choosing not to vaccinate just as intelligent, rational people are vaccinating their children. 

 

Some of my arguments:

There's never been a study of non-vaccinated vs. vaccinated.  Autism fear isn't the only reason to avoid vaccinations.Mercury isn't the only toxic substance in vaccines.  I feel that vaccines contribute to auto-immune disorders and there have been studies (pro-vaccine ones) showing that that's possible (but of course, it never happens.)  Vaccines start too early (even if I were to vaccinate, it wouldn't be before 6 months. There are a lot of conflicts of interest with the cdc and vaccine manufacturers and doctors and politicians.  This was rebutted with the fact that people need to be experts to make policy about vaccines, therefore vaccine conflicts of interest are unavoidable.  I don't think so...not when it comes to mandating them as a one-size fits all, keep adding to the list, a thousand a day won't hurt kind of mentality about them.  How is it selfish to keep my children away from something that I think is harmful to their health? 

 

It's not easy to have a friendly online discussion about this thing, especially if you've got a whole group of people who feel one way about it and you're in the minority.  That's kind of why I'm really happy that we have the INV forum, so we can have a place where people feel more free to discuss not vaccinating. 

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#12 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 07:11 AM
 
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To answer your question, because that would be a violation of the Declaration of Helsinki, http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/b3/index.html. This is one of the many sets of ethical principles that research institutions follow. You cannot use a placebo on a study in place of standard of care treatment, unless the standard of care treatment has been shown to be no good or to have unacceptable risks.

 

You would never see a study with that design, it's against the rules meant to protect people, and there are so many regulatory groups overseeing this that nobody would even try it, if you could even get the study design past the FDA in the IND application for the new vaccine, which I seriously doubt.

 

Basically, if there is a vaccine for something already in use (meaning the old one has been shown to have SOME efficacy), it is a violation of human subjects protection guidelines to compare it only against placebo.

 

Comparing new vaccines to older ones is the ethical way to test them.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by peainthepod View Post

Where are the double-blind placebo safety studies for vaccines? You know, the actual science? Why are new vaccines only tested against older versions of the same vaccine?

 

 

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#13 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 07:26 AM
 
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#14 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 08:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by greenmulberry View Post

To answer your question, because that would be a violation of the Declaration of Helsinki, http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/b3/index.html. This is one of the many sets of ethical principles that research institutions follow. You cannot use a placebo on a study in place of standard of care treatment, unless the standard of care treatment has been shown to be no good or to have unacceptable risks.

 

You would never see a study with that design, it's against the rules meant to protect people, and there are so many regulatory groups overseeing this that nobody would even try it, if you could even get the study design past the FDA in the IND application for the new vaccine, which I seriously doubt.

 

Basically, if there is a vaccine for something already in use (meaning the old one has been shown to have SOME efficacy), it is a violation of human subjects protection guidelines to compare it only against placebo.

 

Comparing new vaccines to older ones is the ethical way to test them.
 



How interesting, thanks for the link. When did a one-size-fits-all approach to vaccination, regardless of the patient's age, weight, medical history, and allergies become the standard of care, do you know?

 

Why are there no long-term studies comparing fully vaccinated to partially vaccinated to vaccine-free children? There would be nothing unethical about studying the health effects of vaccines on subjects who have chosen to remain vaccine-free.

 

Which other pharmaceutical drugs, if any, are tested without double-blind placebo studies due to ethical concerns and then marketed to the public at large as completely safe?

 

How can we know that vaccines protect people (rather than harming them) if we don't test vaccines against placebos? If I test one concentration of arsenic against a different concentration of arsenic and then assure people that the new concentration of arsenic results in less severe or apparent symptoms of poisoning than the older concentration, does that mean that arsenic is safe?

More questions than answers, really...


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#15 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 09:43 AM
 
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I don't know how many households in this country have both fully vaccinated and completely unvaccinated children, but I am a member of such a demographic (perhaps a growing one?) If there was a study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children done with families like this, I would be willing to participate! There are no "unethical" concerns or conflicts of interest here. My oldest was vaxed according to the '99 schedule so by today's schedule she would be undervaxed but I can testify to the differences I've witnessed in health, development, early or late speech, etc. If someone wants to do a study, let me know.


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#16 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 10:49 AM
 
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I'm in that camp also, my oldest two were vaxed til 18 months.  Oh I just noticed your username, I'm also in that camp, I love my 3 girls :)
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3girls View Post

I don't know how many households in this country have both fully vaccinated and completely unvaccinated children, but I am a member of such a demographic (perhaps a growing one?) If there was a study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children done with families like this, I would be willing to participate! There are no "unethical" concerns or conflicts of interest here. My oldest was vaxed according to the '99 schedule so by today's schedule she would be undervaxed but I can testify to the differences I've witnessed in health, development, early or late speech, etc. If someone wants to do a study, let me know.



 


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#18 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 10:54 AM
 
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If they were completely secure with their decision to vaccinate, they wouldn't be abusive and hateful to people that don't. Deep down, they feel uncomfortable that they are taking the risks of vaccines and you aren't.

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#19 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 11:02 AM
 
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I think deep down their responses stem from fear, and I can understand because I was there too, in another life. Propaganda from "officialdom" and media scare tactics really drive it in deep into the mass subconscious. I'm down on the Pharm because not only do they market their drugs, they've also done a masterful job of marketing fear too. It's a powerful tool to control people and I believe it is of dark intent.

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#20 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 11:39 AM
 
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If they were completely secure with their decision to vaccinate, they wouldn't be abusive and hateful to people that don't. Deep down, they feel uncomfortable that they are taking the risks of vaccines and you aren't.

 

^^^  Ma2Two is so wise. 

 

And I'm sorry for my rant yesterday about baby boards... I was feeling peevish.  Here's the hug you requested.  hug2.gif

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#21 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 11:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peainthepod View Post

It's easier to call someone ugly names or insinuate that they're just not smart enough to question the self-proclaimed experts than it is to answer their sincere questions.

 

Questions like:

 

Where are the double-blind placebo safety studies for vaccines? You know, the actual science? Why are new vaccines only tested against older versions of the same vaccine?

 

Where are the studies proving that administering combinations of vaccines, as seen on the current CDC schedule, is safe for all children regardless of size, medical history, allergies, and age?

 

Why can't patients and parents/guardians of patients legally sue pharmaceutical companies for the damages their vaccines cause? Who benefits from such an arrangement?

 

Why are vaccines, unlike every other pharmaceutical drug on the market, assumed by medical professionals and government agencies to be completely safe with almost no chance of side effects or adverse reactions, despite the large volume of documented evidence to the contrary?

 

When did informed consent become less important than vaccine "compliance", and why? Again, who benefits from this wild shift in medical ethics?

 

Why does the pharmaceutical industry wield such enormous power in Washington, and why are the numerous conflicts of interest within the government agencies that shape official vaccine policy never explored by the mainstream media or congressional committee?

 

Oh well, I guess it's just easier to call us stupid and lazy. I'm sure Dr. Offitt would never lie about his own product, and it's just a coincidence that the former head of the CDC now has a very cushy job at Merck. Stop asking questions and by the way, did you hear that Jenny McCarthy posed for Playboy? She can't possibly have anything worthwhile to say. But Amanda Peet? She might just be an actress, but she's a mom too and I trust her.

 

mischievous.gif

 

In all seriousness, I'm sorry you felt hurt and attacked. Plenty of people poo-poohed a link between thalidomide and birth defects at first, but that didn't make the skeptics any less correct. Questioning conventional wisdom is never popular. It doesn't matter though, because the only person who needs to be comfortable with your vaccine decision-making is you. hug.gif


And another question based on a recent experience a friend had - why do doctors still insist on another dose of the MMR vaccine when a titre check showed the child already gained immunity?

 

Kathy, sorry you feel like that. I, too, don't discuss my vax decisions with random people on the web. But one thing is certain. If I, an intelligent professional, don't understand science, neither do other people who work in unrelated fields. Why is their decision to vax more valid than mine not to?

 

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#22 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AerialistEm View Post

If they were completely secure with their decision to vaccinate, they wouldn't be abusive and hateful to people that don't. Deep down, they feel uncomfortable that they are taking the risks of vaccines and you aren't.

 

^^^  Ma2Two is so wise. 

 

And I'm sorry for my rant yesterday about baby boards... I was feeling peevish.  Here's the hug you requested.  hug2.gif


Oh, my goodness - that was no rant.  Try being the only non-vaxer is a sea of vaxxers, lol.   It is all good.  

Thanks for the hug.

 

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#23 of 173 Old 06-29-2011, 01:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

If they were completely secure with their decision to vaccinate, they wouldn't be abusive and hateful to people that don't. Deep down, they feel uncomfortable that they are taking the risks of vaccines and you aren't.


I haven't really found this to be true.

 

I find that many (not all, by any stretch of the imagination) of the really pro-vax parents I know, especially the abusive ones, just can't fathom why someone would rather have their child get a disease than a shot.  They don't see adverse reactions as being common or a big deal, and deny that serious reactions are related to the vaccines at all.  They get angry because people who don't vax for whatever reason "screw up herd immunity", putting everyone at risk!  :eyeroll

 

I've seen many, many parents call non-vaxers "child abusers" and "quacks".  It's easy to point fingers and believe that vaccines are 100% good and diseases are 100% bad until the lines start blurring, your child has a vaccine reaction and/or gets a VPD despite being fully immunized.

 

Talk about mommy wars - this seems to be the most vicious one in cyberspace. 

 

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#24 of 173 Old 07-01-2011, 11:34 AM
 
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I also agree with Ma2Two.

If they were truly comfortable with their decisions why wouldn't they do their best to educate you in the way we might do the same here???

Deep down they know they've not done the research or don't have the strength to advocate for their child and stand up for what they know isn't right. My SIL is the exact same way! She knows she's doing wrong but she cannot say no to that darn dr! I hate what's happening to my nieces and I've tried to help but I have NEVER, EVER belittled her or yelled at her or been abusive towards sil in any way!

 

Cate

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#25 of 173 Old 07-01-2011, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casha'sMommy View Post

grouphug.gif

I also agree with Ma2Two.

If they were truly comfortable with their decisions why wouldn't they do their best to educate you in the way we might do the same here???

Deep down they know they've not done the research or don't have the strength to advocate for their child and stand up for what they know isn't right. My SIL is the exact same way! She knows she's doing wrong but she cannot say no to that darn dr! I hate what's happening to my nieces and I've tried to help but I have NEVER, EVER belittled her or yelled at her or been abusive towards sil in any way!

 

Cate



Thanks.  To be honest, some people did try to engage me in conversation ( as stated above, probably to try and convert me, lol.)  It was really hard to get to a respectful discussion place with the all the visciousness going on, though.  

 

I have had way more luck on MDC discussing things respectfully - including discussion on the main vaccinating page where pro-vaxxers regularly submit info.  

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#26 of 173 Old 07-01-2011, 02:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post





Thanks.  To be honest, some people did try to engage me in conversation ( as stated above, probably to try and convert me, lol.)  It was really hard to get to a respectful discussion place with the all the visciousness going on, though.  

 

I have had way more luck on MDC discussing things respectfully - including discussion on the main vaccinating page where pro-vaxxers regularly submit info.  



I agree. I've learned a lot from the pro-vaxers here on MDC (hasn't changed my opinion but gives me things to think about and research), and nothing but nothing like that from people on other boards.

 


"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." ~Mark Twain

 


 
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#27 of 173 Old 07-01-2011, 04:08 PM
 
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I think it's like that here because we're all like minded in many ways even if we don't agree on everything.

We are respectful of one another because that's who we all tend to be and that just rarely leads to any of us being defensive.

imho

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#28 of 173 Old 07-10-2011, 10:08 PM
 
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hug2.gif There you go, and may I just say, I am also stupid, selfish, crazy and scientifically-challenged.  It was explained to me the other day (sort of screamed to me actually) that I am "selfish because I/we expect everyone else around us to vax so that we have the luxury of not vaxing!" (exclamation point and emphasis is their's).  I had to gently point out that, No, I expect everyone else around us to do their own research and do what they feel is best for their own family.  Just like we do with ours. I know the exact feeling you speak of, so here's another hug2.gif 

 

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#29 of 173 Old 07-10-2011, 10:47 PM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by skyblufig View Post

It was explained to me the other day (sort of screamed to me actually) that I am "selfish because I/we expect everyone else around us to vax so that we have the luxury of not vaxing!"

 

No, I expect everyone else around us to do their own research and do what they feel is best for their own family.

 

I guess they never stopped to think--if you expect everyone else around you to vaccinate for your child's safety, why would you be encouraging others to do their own research, which could lead them to stop vaccinating?

 

And it kind of makes you wonder--if they think not vaccinating is a luxury, why do they think their own kids don't deserve that luxury?

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#30 of 173 Old 07-10-2011, 10:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

Quote:

 

I guess they never stopped to think--if you expect everyone else around you to vaccinate for your child's safety, why would you be encouraging others to do their own research, which could lead them to stop vaccinating?

 

And it kind of makes you wonder--if they think not vaccinating is a luxury, why do they think their own kids don't deserve that luxury?

 

Word. 

And I'm happy I'm not the only night owl around here.  lol.gif
 

 


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