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#31 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 08:55 AM
 
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Ohh I'm so glad vaccines weren't routinely offered to pregnant women when I was pregnant with DS. I hadn't researched the issue back then and would have blindly followed the obgyn's advice. Now with DD my midwives didn't even mention it. Maybe because I first saw an obgyn who fired me for non-compliance and it said in my records patient refuses flu and TDaP (but that's not why I was fired- was fired for refusing doppler checks).

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#32 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 10:31 AM
 
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Especially since the flu shots and h1n1 shots have been linked to loss of baby inutero. I am on a loss board and there has been posted articles about it and women posting wondering if their babies die in utero because of those shots.


That's so sad that women are feeling guilty and wondering if their great loss was caused by something they chose.  But I am pretty sure there has never been any evidence of an actual link; if you know of a study or data set that shows women who got the vaccine were more likely to lose their pregnancies than women who did not, please share it.

 

I am aware of the websites and articles full of anecdotes of women who got the shot and blamed it for miscarriages that happened anywhere from the same day to a month or so later.  But  a huge number of pregnancies end in miscarriage, and close to half of pregnant women in the US got the vaccine - based on those numbers alone we should expect thousands and thousands of miscarriages in the period following the vaccine - many even starting the same day.  The vaccine could have been just a shot of saline and it would be the same.  You could track down a million or so pregnant women over the next few weeks or months and convince them to dance the hokey pokey and expect that a fair number of them would start miscarrying later that very same day, and many more in the next few weeks.  But that doesn't indicate that the hokey pokey is dangerous to pregnant women.  You'd need to compare rates of pregnancy loss in women who danced the hokey pokey to women who did not to know if there is even any correlation between the hokey pokey and miscarriage, not just know that some miscarriages happened after the dance. 

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#33 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 11:05 AM
 
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banghead.gif duh.gif Hokey Pokey?

Vaccines cause no harm, only good.....women should not trust their instincts, but should trust the vaccines, because there have not been any studies to prove harm. (Will there ever be a study that proves harm?) Until the studies show evidence of harm, pregnant women should continue to inject themselves. Also, they should not do the hokey pokey dance while pregnant.

This is the Twilight Zone, where everything is backwards. Backward Land.

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#34 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 11:07 AM
 
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Flu Shot Coverage, Vaccine-Related Miscarriage Rates Rise Expontentially

 

 

 

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VAERS showed that in the two years preceding the CDC's recommendation for all pregnant women to be vaccinated against influenza and H1N1, 7 miscarriages per year were reported as attributable to vaccination.  In 2009, that number rose to 178.  Health statisticians who use reporting methods like VAERS have shown that between 10-90% of cases are missed due to under-reporting, so they typically corroborate the information with another source and use a formula that gives a best-estimate of the actual numbers involved.  By using this formula, NCOWs estimated that 1588 miscarriages (within a range of 946 to 3587) in 2009 were associated with pregnant mothers who were vaccinated with the H1N1 or combined influenza shot.

 

Then there is this research:

 

UCSF team finds new source of immune cells during pregnancy

 

 

 

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Until now, the fetal and infant immune system had been thought to be simply an immature form of the adult system, one that responds differently because of a lack of exposure to immune threats from the environment. The new research has unveiled an entirely different immune system in the fetus at mid-term that is derived from a completely different set of stem cells than the adult system.

“In the fetus, we found that there is an immune system whose job it is to teach the fetus to be tolerant of everything it sees, including its mother and its own organs,” said Joseph M. McCune, MD, PhD, a professor in the UCSF Division of Experimental Medicine who is a co-senior author on the paper. “After birth, a new immune system arises from a different stem cell that instead has the job of fighting everything foreign.”

 


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#35 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 11:54 AM
 
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is your baby okay developmentally? (just curious)
 

 


So far, so good. She has hit every milestone before the "normal time" and has over 50 words at 16 months.
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#36 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 12:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

banghead.gif duh.gif Hokey Pokey?

Vaccines cause no harm, only good.....women should not trust their instincts, but should trust the vaccines, because there have not been any studies to prove harm. (Will there ever be a study that proves harm?) Until the studies show evidence of harm, pregnant women should continue to inject themselves. Also, they should not do the hokey pokey dance while pregnant.

This is the Twilight Zone, where everything is backwards. Backward Land.


I know you are angry - but pers might be correct.

 

I would NOT get a flu shot while pregnant because it has not been proven safe. Proven safe, and safer than alternatives, would be my standard of care.

 

The flu vax has not been proven to increase the miscarriage rate as far as I know. If half the pregnant women in the USA get a flu shot, and the flu shot causes a higher chance of miscarriage, I would expect a rise in miscarriage rates that I have have not seen.  It is possible I missed it, though.

 

I am going to read the link above to see what it says.  

 

Edited to add:  just did a quick google search of flu vaccine and miscarriage rates.  There is quite a bit of stuff.  Add it to the pile of "stuff one has to research to make a decision  dizzy.gif"  

 

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#37 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

banghead.gif duh.gif Hokey Pokey?

Vaccines cause no harm, only good.....women should not trust their instincts, but should trust the vaccines, because there have not been any studies to prove harm. (Will there ever be a study that proves harm?) Until the studies show evidence of harm, pregnant women should continue to inject themselves. Also, they should not do the hokey pokey dance while pregnant.

This is the Twilight Zone, where everything is backwards. Backward Land.


Umm... I think you really missed the point. 

 

Yes, hokey pokey as an example of something for which it is very obvious that miscarriages happening soon after dancing it would be completely coincidental.  I could have used reciting the preamble to the constitution backwards, participating in a spelling bee, reading Harry Potter, whatever.  The point is that these things do not cause pregnancy loss, but if you have a very large number of pregnant women do them, you can expect many will miscarry very soon after simply because they were already just about to have a miscarriage when they danced, recited, read, whatever, not because those things caused them.  The miscarriages would have happened anyway.  

 

Here is a good article explaining it better in the case of H1N1 from back in 2009 when it was a cocern:  http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/49017/title/Science_%2B_the_Public__H1N1_vaccine_Counting_side_effects  

 

Could the H1N1 vaccine have caused miscarriage?   It's certainly not impossible.  While serious side effects are thankfully rare with the commonly used vaccines, vaccines certainly can have side effects.   But to show that miscarriage was one for this particular vaccine, at the very least you'd need data showing that the rate of pregnancy loss in the vaccinated group was higher than expected based on size of the group.  Not just anecdotes of women who miscarried, as so many women do, but who happened to have recently had a vaccine when it happened.  

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#38 of 51 Old 08-03-2011, 03:47 PM
 
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Well, reports of miscarriage after vaccination rose exponentially, for sure. 

 

But VAERS is an early warning system for side effects to rare to be caught in pre-realease testing.  It can indicate a possible problem that warrants further study to see if it is really happening.   It can not be used to calculate actual rates of side effects/reactions, and rates of reporting can be influenced by other things besides the rates of actual reactions. H1N1 vaccine panic is a perfect example of that. 

 

In previous years, getting a flu shot is not a big deal for most women who choose it - after all, a lot of women do every year, and some of them have even done it before with prior pregnancies which turned out just fine.  So many women don't think much of it after getting it, and are not very likely to make a connection to a miscarriage that happens several days or weeks later.  If they got it at a flu shot clinic rather than their OB and haven't been back to the OB yet, they may not even remember to mention the shot to the OB as they are dealing with the miscarriage and are unlikely to report the miscarriage to the clinic.  

 

Now take the H1N1 vaccine and all the fearmongering as to if it is really safe or not, and then reports of miscarriages after it start going viral.  Of course hearing these things is going to make women who miscarried after the vaccine wonder if the vaccine caused it.  And then there are all these discussions on blogs and the net and news reports saying "if you miscarried after, make sure your doctor reports it to VAERS, or report it yourself" ... and so it is no surprise at all that reports go up!

 

VAERS can't show if a vaccine is safe or not, only serve as a warning that there may be a problem worth further looking into.  To show a relationship between the vaccine and miscarriages, you need to look at the actual miscarriage rates, information that is beyond the scope of what VAERS can give. 

 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Then there is this research:

 

UCSF team finds new source of immune cells during pregnancy

 

 

That is very interesting, and I look forward to finding out more about it and what it means for vaccination and immunity in pregnancy/babies.  But it is not at all evidence that women who got the H1N1 vaccine had increased rates of miscarriage. 

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"Umm... I think you really missed the point."


No Pers, I did not miss your point. I got your point.  Surely, doing the hokey pokey can not be blamed for miscarriages.  I  simply did not appreciate your comparison, although I know you were just using hokey pokey as a silly example. As if to dismiss the thousands of concerned women who question the safety of the vaccine. Your comparison was the same type of humor as this:  "Silly women who have lost your babies, the shot cannot be to blame! Why, if we blame the shot, we can blame miscarriages on just about anything, like doing the hokey pokey or watching too much tv! See how silly it all is?"

When dealing with stories of loss, using humor is not the best choice! To dismiss the anecdotes of women who believe their losses were caused by a drug, well, what can I say? It is a grave concern, and I guess I'm the only one who disliked your "lighthearted, harmless" comparison.

 

 

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#40 of 51 Old 08-04-2011, 07:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pers View Post

 

That is very interesting, and I look forward to finding out more about it and what it means for vaccination and immunity in pregnancy/babies.  But it is not at all evidence that women who got the H1N1 vaccine had increased rates of miscarriage. 



Pardon me if I don't think that Big Pharma, government agencies, medical associations and the doctors they influence will change their approach in vaccinating pregnant women and newborns. I am sure the implication of this research will be ignored and they will go on recommending vaccines to pregnant women, especially the flu vax. If by any chance this research and its implications becomes well known, I fear the researchers will be vilified, as always happens to those that threaten the status quo.

 

Has anyone posted the link to Hilary Butler's excellent three part series Vaccines and neonatal immune development?

 

 


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#41 of 51 Old 08-04-2011, 09:28 AM
 
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"Umm... I think you really missed the point."


No Pers, I did not miss your point. I got your point.  Surely, doing the hokey pokey can not be blamed for miscarriages.  I  simply did not appreciate your comparison, although I know you were just using hokey pokey as a silly example. As if to dismiss the thousands of concerned women who question the safety of the vaccine. Your comparison was the same type of humor as this:  "Silly women who have lost your babies, the shot cannot be to blame! Why, if we blame the shot, we can blame miscarriages on just about anything, like doing the hokey pokey or watching too much tv! See how silly it all is?"

When dealing with stories of loss, using humor is not the best choice! To dismiss the anecdotes of women who believe their losses were caused by a drug, well, what can I say? It is a grave concern, and I guess I'm the only one who disliked your "lighthearted, harmless" comparison.

 

 


I almsot never dismiss an individuals story.  If you said you genuinely believed the vax contributed to your miscarriage - I would believe you.  

 

However, there is another part of my brain ( a more mathy side, perhaps) that would want to see numbers on a wider scale before saying flu vaccines causes miscarriage.  If miscarriage rates did not rise since the advent of vaccinating pregnant women, the vaccine probably is not responsible for miscarriage.  That does not mean any individuals story is untrue, it simply means the data does not show vaccines cause miscarriage.

 

I do not dismiss anecdotal evidence outright (that is another post!)- but ancedotal evidence has more validity when it is backed up by some numbers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#42 of 51 Old 08-06-2011, 06:42 PM
 
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I WISH that the stuff I've seen were only ads.....but I work in the medical field and I saw a kid die from tetanus. It wasn't pretty.


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And I've held a baby dying from meningitis, but that isn't the only information on which I've based my decisions to not vax.


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at my work, several babies died from pertussis. I had sever mumps because I did not have a booster.

i had held hand of several people who died from Hep B.

 

h1n1 poses the most risk to pregnant women that is why vaccination is  encouraged.

 

Yes, vaccines have small risks but to me, illnesses are more likely .

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I WISH that the stuff I've seen were only ads.....but I work in the medical field and I saw a kid die from tetanus. It wasn't pretty.



 

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#45 of 51 Old 08-06-2011, 08:19 PM
 
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at my work, several babies died from pertussis. I had sever mumps because I did not have a booster.

i had held hand of several people who died from Hep B.

 



 

Where do you work?

 


 

 

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#46 of 51 Old 08-08-2011, 12:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

"Umm... I think you really missed the point."

No Pers, I did not miss your point. I got your point.  Surely, doing the hokey pokey can not be blamed for miscarriages.  I  simply did not appreciate your comparison, although I know you were just using hokey pokey as a silly example. As if to dismiss the thousands of concerned women who question the safety of the vaccine. Your comparison was the same type of humor as this:  "Silly women who have lost your babies, the shot cannot be to blame! Why, if we blame the shot, we can blame miscarriages on just about anything, like doing the hokey pokey or watching too much tv! See how silly it all is?"

When dealing with stories of loss, using humor is not the best choice! To dismiss the anecdotes of women who believe their losses were caused by a drug, well, what can I say? It is a grave concern, and I guess I'm the only one who disliked your "lighthearted, harmless" comparison.

 

 


 

Nope, you missed my point.  Either that or you are deliberately ignoring it because it is easier to try paint me as cruelly mocking women who have suffered loss than it is to actually answer my point. 

 

I needed an example of something totally innocent that could not reasonably be connected to miscarriage and is also not commonly done in pregnancy.  My first thought, a single drink of alcohol, would not serve well as while one small drink probably wouldn't cause harm, it is something many women do worry about.  In hindsight, the hokey pokey doesn't work well either, because there could be some concern over falls, however unlikely.  Reciting the preamble to the constitution would have been better. 

 

My point was: miscarriages happen every day.  A lot of them.  It is terribly, but expected, and not surprising.  In fact, what would be very surprising is if there weren't any women miscarrying soon after being given a flu shot - a large group of women with few or no miscarriages would be rather unusual and worth looking into to see what was causing the reduction of loss.  

 

I feel nothing but sadness for women who have undergone loss, and I understand why they question their choices in pregnancy and wonder if something they did - especially something unusual like a flu shot - could have caused it.  But I am frustrated with people who run around scaremongering and claiming that the flu shot must be causing miscarriages simply because the rate of miscarriage doesn't drop far below normal for women who get the shot.  If you want to say that as a fact, at the very least you need some evidence showing that women who get the shot are more likely to suffer pregnancy loss after getting it than the general population or women who don't or at least a hint that the rate of pregnancy loss were higher the year so many women got the vaccine than it had been in the preceding years. Something to at least hint that there might be some relationship between the two besides two common things coincidentally happening at close to the same time in some cases. 

 

 

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#47 of 51 Old 08-08-2011, 01:34 AM
 
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I think I get your point pers

 

I do not get vaccinated at all while pregnant and certainly did not rush out to get vaccinated even while I was pregnant during the H1N1 scare... Now I did have a m/c.  I don't know WHY I m/c, but had I got the H1N1 shot and m/c shortly afterward, I could have easily suspected that the shot might have been why I m/c.  But, I likely would have m/c anyway... since I m/c even w/o the shot.  The fact is, I really don't know why I m/c, and if I got the shot, it still might not have been the reason. 

 

Not saying there is no link to m/c (there very well might be) or the H1N1 is "for sure" safe AT ALL or that women should rush out and get it (no way! I wouldn't!  I hate all the scare and guilt trip tactics that many of those in the pro-vaccine camp push!) ... but not sure there is sufficient evidence of it causing m/c.  Miscarriages are very common and were even before the H1N1 shot became common and pushed... is the rate higher now than it was before the H1N1 shot?  That's all.  While many women m/c after getting the shot, many women who got the shot did not m/c as far as I know.  It is the same with other things...many women who eat chocolate m/c...many women don't.  It's not enough to say that chocolate is the probably reason the women who ate it m/c.  And more m/c might be reported if more women suspect it was due to the shot.  My m/c wasn't reported.  So I think it would be pretty hard to find truly accurate statistics on m/c rates... 

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#48 of 51 Old 08-09-2011, 07:17 AM
 
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to the PP about vaxing with MMR & DTaP... a friend of mine got it while pregnant and her dr told its the new procedure to prevent measles transmission to the baby after birth via breastfeeding.. the reasoning is that they think antibodies will build up in the breastmilk protecting the baby from said disease. . Why wait til after birth, was the response i got from her....sheesh....what ridiculous reason are they going to come up with next? I want to know if they actually studied whether or not antibodies built up in milk thru vax or is it just another guess of theirs. 

That seems CRAZY that the MMR would be given while pregnant. I actually don't believe it. The medical community is way against it, as Rubella in pregnancy is very very very dangerous and it is a live vaccine. Who the eff would actually inject a pregnant woman with it? Your friend needs to sue.
 

 


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#49 of 51 Old 08-09-2011, 11:54 AM
 
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Please remember that all members are expected to maintain a comfortable and respectful posting environment.

Also remember that this forum's intended purpose is to meet the needs of members who have already made the decision not to vax or those who are seriously considering this option.
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This is not a place for debate or discussions on the merits of vaccines or the dangers of not vaccinating, it is also not a place to argue against vaccines or selective and delayed vaccination schedules. Such discussions are already hosted in the main Vaccinations forum and posts in that vein are most welcome and appropriate there.

Any further posts which are not in keeping with this forum's intended purpose and guidelines will be removed.
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#50 of 51 Old 08-09-2011, 12:00 PM
 
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As soon as I found out that I was pregnant they gave me the flu/N1H1 shot... apparently it's standard in the Navy to do this and I can't decline getting any vaccinations as they can send me up to an NJP board, even if it's against my religious beliefs. It's one of the reasons I'm getting out as soon as I can.

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#51 of 51 Old 08-09-2011, 12:15 PM
 
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As soon as I found out that I was pregnant they gave me the flu/N1H1 shot... apparently it's standard in the Navy to do this and I can't decline getting any vaccinations as they can send me up to an NJP board, even if it's against my religious beliefs. It's one of the reasons I'm getting out as soon as I can.


I thought the military allowed waivers. I know that some have been able to have a religious waiver. And this thread states that the military has no-nonsense waivers. Have you talked to people specifically about refusing vaccines? Or is it just general convo that they aren't accepted? 

 


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