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#1 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My non-vaxed son is one year old on Sunday. He's never even had a cold.  Twice in his life he got stuffy when we were staying at my sister-in-laws, and that cleared as soon as we left.  He's also traveled everywhere with me.  We were out of the house with him at one week, and did bi-weekly long-weekend trips up and down the East Coast so that I could attend work-related conferences, meetings and classes.  We could do all this because, as a licensed health provider, I prioritize building a healthy natural immune system and as a result, our family rarely gets sick anymore, and when we do - we recover quicker than others around us.

 

A friend with a month old baby just posted to FB her sob story about how hard it is being a new mom when her family goes out without her because she can't leave the house until the baby gets her 2 month shots.  A friend of hers responded "Good job not being selfish and exposing!"

 

I could ignore the sob story, but I keep having to hold myself back from commenting on the "selfish" post.  I didn't willy nilly expose my child to the world because I was selfish.  I work very hard to keep our family's immune systems strong, giving up many enjoyable foods and activities that harm the immune system, exclusively breast feeding despite being a working mom, prioritizing exercise, taking the time and money to purchase the best, organic or pasture raised foods  - doing things that this woman probably wouldn't make the effort to do for a single week, much less as a lifestyle life-long commitment to health.

 

I'd like to say something such as "vaccinations are one of many options to protect against the spread of disease, not the only option."  But it is probably best that i just leave this alone.

 

Thanks for listening.  This forum is very comforting to me at times when I feel very alone in our health care choices.

 

* Edited to add that I'm not questioning my friend's choice -- it is her decision and I totally respect that.  I am disappointed in her very public complaint / whine about the choice she has made, and the following insult from her friend that parents who make an informed decision to do otherwise are being "selfish".

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#2 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kesrya View Post

 

A friend with a month old baby just posted to FB her sob story about how hard it is being a new mom when her family goes out without her because she can't leave the house until the baby gets her 2 month shots.  A friend of hers responded "Good job not being selfish and exposing!"

 

 



This doesn't even make sense.  Is she afraid her child is going to catch polio before getting the 2 month shot??  She has probably been to the germy doctor's office several times with the child before it gets any shots, and the baby is far more likely to get sick there than get a VPD.

 

I hate that so many people think that if you get your shots, you won't get sick, as if vaccines create an immunity to every illness out there.  It just shows the ignorance that most have about how vaccines work.


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#3 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yup! That is EXACTLY the issue I have with her post.  Sure, there is some merit to keeping your child at home to prevent the spread of illness - but this has nothing to do with vaccinations.  Most of the illnesses her daughter could be exposed to in a public place are not VPD, so the statement that she can leave the house at 2 months after the vaccinations is just so uninformed, it hurts me not to reply.  But I cannot think of a way to reply that would educate her, rather than just coming across snarky.  So I am biting my tongue.

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#4 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 08:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kesrya View Post

Yup! That is EXACTLY the issue I have with her post.  Sure, there is some merit to keeping your child at home to prevent the spread of illness - but this has nothing to do with vaccinations.  Most of the illnesses her daughter could be exposed to in a public place are not VPD, so the statement that she can leave the house at 2 months after the vaccinations is just so uninformed, it hurts me not to reply.  But I cannot think of a way to reply that would educate her, rather than just coming across snarky.  So I am biting my tongue.



You could ask her if her doctor suggested the 2-month wait, or if she is being overprotective.  I had 2 preemies and was never advised to just stay home, but to practice basic illness avoidance (lots of hand washing, wearing the baby to keep strangers' hands away, avoiding places like Walmart, etc.).  And they never got polio.  ;)


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#5 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Her pediatrician is a moron.  The child had lost 2 ounces during the first week after birth and had not gained them back by the 2 week visit (probably because she was still on the way down for losing weight, so she had gained back but it appeared that the weight hadn't changed). So he told her to start formula - despite the fact that the girl latches and nurses well - and that if the girl had not gained the 2 ounces back by the third week they would run a bunch of genetic testing.  Can you imagine that?  My son lost 12 ounces and didn't return to his birth weight for an entire month and our pediatrician was totally supportive, low stress about it.  Once my EBF baby got back to his birth weight, he has remained in the 85% for height and weight since!  I'm sure the pediatrician told her this.

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#6 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 11:02 AM
 
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hahaha, sometimes I have to literally FORCE myself to step away from facebook and not respond to some comments... usually a little after I'm glad I didn't make any comment, it's just not worth it... 

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#7 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 11:08 AM
 
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My DH called home yesterday and asked me to delete a post he had made the night before...I warned him about FB before he joined up!

 

OP, that lady's comment angers me too. It sounds like she needs to study a little bit more!


 
 
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#8 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 11:12 AM
 
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you could private message her and tell her that you r not questioning her choice but ... and then just post what you told us. and elaborate or even a pm to ask if she would mind your opinion on it. 

 

that way you give her an out of not wanting the info and you dont make her post a public battle its not worth it and it will turn her off.  but this way you are loving and respecting her and educating if it is wanted.

 

i am very proud of you  for the choices you have made to make your family soo soo healthy.

 

would you mind sharing what you did

 

i am still seeking out what to do for my health let alone my little ones.  as i am recovering from chronic illness just by eating good foods and eliminating toxin exposure and that allowed me to be healthy enough to get pregnant in just 3 mo of hard work which now i love the choices i have made.

 

 

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#9 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 11:35 AM
 
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I have REALLY had a hard time with keeping my mouth shut about not only vaccination choices without education first...but about stopping BF with the lame excuse of "I wasn't producing enough milk because my baby wanted to nurse every 1 1/2 hours when he was an infant."!!!! I was just telling someone today that is pregnant (she just found out) that BF and the choices I make are not "easy" or even remotely easy...they are made because I believe in sacrificing of myself for my childrens' health. Sadly the pediatricians of today are mostly told that formula is just as good as breastmilk and if your baby is crying at 1 1/2 hours after nursing...then you just are not "producing enough milk". DS2 was born in June and I have since had several friends who have had babies ~ 3 of which have ALL gone onto formula after just BF for 6 weeks because they claim they were not producing enough milk. Either our ability to produce milk is going out the window or people want to be lazy and expect a baby to go 3 hours in between feedings. I have TOTALLY had to sit on my tongue to keep from blurting out ~ YOU ARE BEING LAZY, your milk production is not the problem. I even had one friend who had a pediatrician tell her that her baby was taking in too much milk (she BF and switched to formula) so to put the baby on a "restriction" aka diet!!!! at 3 months of age.

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#10 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 12:36 PM
 
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This doesn't even make sense.  Is she afraid her child is going to catch polio before getting the 2 month shot??  She has probably been to the germy doctor's office several times with the child before it gets any shots, and the baby is far more likely to get sick there than get a VPD.

 

I hate that so many people think that if you get your shots, you won't get sick, as if vaccines create an immunity to every illness out there.  It just shows the ignorance that most have about how vaccines work.



Yes! Makes me wonder, too. And, even if the shots were to protect the 2-month-old (against the VPDs), would they protect the child after the first dose only, given at 2 months? Shouldn't she still be nervous to travel with the baby afterwards?

 

 

 


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#11 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 12:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lokidoki View Post

I have REALLY had a hard time with keeping my mouth shut about not only vaccination choices without education first...but about stopping BF with the lame excuse of "I wasn't producing enough milk because my baby wanted to nurse every 1 1/2 hours when he was an infant."!!!! I was just telling someone today that is pregnant (she just found out) that BF and the choices I make are not "easy" or even remotely easy...they are made because I believe in sacrificing of myself for my childrens' health. Sadly the pediatricians of today are mostly told that formula is just as good as breastmilk and if your baby is crying at 1 1/2 hours after nursing...then you just are not "producing enough milk". DS2 was born in June and I have since had several friends who have had babies ~ 3 of which have ALL gone onto formula after just BF for 6 weeks because they claim they were not producing enough milk. Either our ability to produce milk is going out the window or people want to be lazy and expect a baby to go 3 hours in between feedings. I have TOTALLY had to sit on my tongue to keep from blurting out ~ YOU ARE BEING LAZY, your milk production is not the problem. I even had one friend who had a pediatrician tell her that her baby was taking in too much milk (she BF and switched to formula) so to put the baby on a "restriction" aka diet!!!! at 3 months of age.



Some pediatricians should not be practicing. Our former one informed us during the 1 month visit that dd is nursing too much (on demand) when she specifically told me at the hospital to only nurse every 3-4 hours, and so she doesn't become fat she suggested I give her pedialyte every other feeding. Of course I didn't and of couse dd was only chubby until being mobile. Now she is on the skinny side. I wish this pedi knew I'm glad I didn't follow her advice (while knowing nothing about bf at the time) but she fired us for wanting to delay vaxing while studying the topic thoroughly.

 

 

 

To the OP: I found out sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut while other times I stay quiet. I pick my battles. People who think non vaxing = selfish really haven't studied the topic much.  Congrats on the healthy choices you're making for your family.  We live way more different than all of our friends - I'm sure they think we're nuts sometimes.  I've also grown further apart from some of my friends because of it. But we definitely seem to be healthier and I'm sure it's because of the choices we've made. :)


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#12 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 01:33 PM
 
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Not exposing…. eyesroll.gif

 

If you feel so inclined, you could let her know that the likelihood of a a newborn exposing anyone to any VPDs is close to nil.  Give her the rates on Diptheria and the like in the USA if you so desire.  winky.gif  

 

Of course, all of this is just FB drama…..I am not sure i would post any of it…but you can vent here!!!!!

 

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#13 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 03:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lokidoki View Post

I have REALLY had a hard time with keeping my mouth shut about not only vaccination choices without education first...but about stopping BF with the lame excuse of "I wasn't producing enough milk because my baby wanted to nurse every 1 1/2 hours when he was an infant."!!!! I was just telling someone today that is pregnant (she just found out) that BF and the choices I make are not "easy" or even remotely easy...they are made because I believe in sacrificing of myself for my childrens' health. Sadly the pediatricians of today are mostly told that formula is just as good as breastmilk and if your baby is crying at 1 1/2 hours after nursing...then you just are not "producing enough milk". DS2 was born in June and I have since had several friends who have had babies ~ 3 of which have ALL gone onto formula after just BF for 6 weeks because they claim they were not producing enough milk. Either our ability to produce milk is going out the window or people want to be lazy and expect a baby to go 3 hours in between feedings. I have TOTALLY had to sit on my tongue to keep from blurting out ~ YOU ARE BEING LAZY, your milk production is not the problem. I even had one friend who had a pediatrician tell her that her baby was taking in too much milk (she BF and switched to formula) so to put the baby on a "restriction" aka diet!!!! at 3 months of age.

Most bf-ing mums follow a feeding schedule suggested by their pediatrician--a schedule that the pediatrician was taught in medical school, by a paid representative of the formula company.  

Hence the advice, "if your baby is crying at 1 1/2 hours after nursing you are not producing enough milk."  I have NEVER heard of a pediatrician  who advised new mums that babies need to nurse as often as every 30-90 minutes, especially during growth spurts.

 

In most cases, we really can't blame the mums--it's the pediatricians who are at fault, but even then, you have to look at who taught them.

 

 

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#14 of 29 Old 02-08-2012, 05:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kesrya View Post

 

A friend with a month old baby just posted to FB her sob story about how hard it is being a new mom when her family goes out without her because she can't leave the house until the baby gets her 2 month shots.  A friend of hers responded "Good job not being selfish and exposing!"

 

 

I'd have to post a comment such as, " gee, so your family goes out and brings back all the germs to you and the baby you guys missed out on? How thoughtful"...

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#15 of 29 Old 02-09-2012, 11:28 PM
 
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I hate how people are scared to get sick... I don't understand it! Getting sick actually healthy!! When you get sick and then recover that means your body is doing its job and is healthy its when you get sick and can't get better that you should worry! Do people really expect to never get sick...? I don't understand the fear of getting sick even with a simple cold. That being said man the commenter on your friends profile would hate me because in the first two months of my son's life I did nothing but travel, and enjoy my maternity leave. I rarely stayed home in fact because my fridge died while I was giving birth to my son we went straight from the hospital to Sears to buy a new fridge and then straight from Sears to a grocery store, and my son was 10 days old on his first camping/boating trip. Since I breast fed my son I never went anywhere without him, he was in public twice as much as being at home. My son is the healthiest kid in my family, but we also eat good and wash our hands a lot as well.


Brandy; Mother to Aspen (7/1996) and Ky (5/2006) and partner to Ryan

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#16 of 29 Old 02-10-2012, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lokidoki View Post

I have REALLY had a hard time with keeping my mouth shut about not only vaccination choices without education first...but about stopping BF with the lame excuse of "I wasn't producing enough milk because my baby wanted to nurse every 1 1/2 hours when he was an infant."!!!! I was just telling someone today that is pregnant (she just found out) that BF and the choices I make are not "easy" or even remotely easy...they are made because I believe in sacrificing of myself for my childrens' health. Sadly the pediatricians of today are mostly told that formula is just as good as breastmilk and if your baby is crying at 1 1/2 hours after nursing...then you just are not "producing enough milk". DS2 was born in June and I have since had several friends who have had babies ~ 3 of which have ALL gone onto formula after just BF for 6 weeks because they claim they were not producing enough milk. Either our ability to produce milk is going out the window or people want to be lazy and expect a baby to go 3 hours in between feedings. I have TOTALLY had to sit on my tongue to keep from blurting out ~ YOU ARE BEING LAZY, your milk production is not the problem. I even had one friend who had a pediatrician tell her that her baby was taking in too much milk (she BF and switched to formula) so to put the baby on a "restriction" aka diet!!!! at 3 months of age.

 

I hope you never have to go through anything as devastating as not producing enough milk, and on top of it, having people say things like this to make you feel more awful than you already do.  Failure to produce enough milk is a VERY REAL problem.  I had a home birth, eat an impeccable diet, had plenty of postpartum support, nursed every hour, pumped every two hours around the clock, took a ridiculous amount of herbs and lactogenic supplements, and did not produce enough milk to feed my baby.  I was so bullied by people with ideas like yours and by my LC, that I ignored my pediatrician's advice to supplement with formula.  I suffered because of this, and much worse, my son suffered.  After joining a support group, I have come across hundreds of moms with stories just like mine.  Formula saved my son's life.  I am not lazy.  Milk production was my problem.   You should be grateful that you were able to breastfeed, not full of hatred from those of us who could not.  If you want to continue to spew these ignorant, arrogant, smug thoughts, take it to the "Lactavist" forums.
 

 


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#17 of 29 Old 02-10-2012, 07:00 PM
 
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The fastest way to shut these people up is to ask for raw numbers.  Excuse me, could you quantify for me to the exact percentage point the chance my two-month-old has of getting diptheria?  What about spreading it?

 

What is her chance--again to the exact percentage--of my baby spreading tetanus to other children?  (Those trick questions are especially fun, tee-hee!  mischievous.gif ) 

 

If they can't answer, or if they can only say "you never know and herd immunity and blah blah blah," you know they're talking out of thin air.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Not exposing…. eyesroll.gif

 

If you feel so inclined, you could let her know that the likelihood of a a newborn exposing anyone to any VPDs is close to nil.  Give her the rates on Diptheria and the like in the USA if you so desire.  winky.gif  

 

Of course, all of this is just FB drama…..I am not sure i would post any of it…but you can vent here!!!!!

 

Welcome!



 


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#18 of 29 Old 02-10-2012, 08:35 PM
 
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Jules, it's certainly possible that, for whatever reason, you were unable to produce enough milk to feed your baby. You say you did everything right, and I believe you.

 

I also believe we are lucky to have formula for moms who can't produce enough milk.


But there is usually (not always) a clear reason WHY a mom can't produce enough milk, such as improper latch-on, not nursing enough, not getting enough rest, dehydration, having undiagnosed illness that inhibits milk production (such as celiac disease, hashimoto's thyroiditis, diabetes, and other autoimmune disorders), having been given medication that inhibits milk production (like magnesium sulfate), even stress can be a major factor for some women.

 

Another issue is separation of mom and baby.  I produced way less milk when I put my baby to sleep in a crib.  Sleeping with my baby and wearing the baby instead of pushing him in a stroller = instant 30% increase in milk production. 

 

I'm not writing this to imply that you didn't do any of this. I'm writing it for the benefit of any reader who assumes it's common and normal for a healthy nursing mom to not produce enough milk for her baby.

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#19 of 29 Old 02-11-2012, 08:27 AM
 
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hahaha, sometimes I have to literally FORCE myself to step away from facebook and not respond to some comments... usually a little after I'm glad I didn't make any comment, it's just not worth it... 



yeahthat.gif  And it's true, I usually regret the times I don't keep my mouth shut when I respond to really asinine comments on FB. The resulting mess just isn't worth it.  (Last time, it was a bunch of people criticizing home birth and saying "babies should only be born in hospitals, and if they're not, the parents should be arrested for child abuse."  eyesroll.gif  The vax ones get me *insane* and my husband begs me to STEP AWAY, STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER.  :) 

 

People are entitled to say what they want, but I get ya... it's hard to let it bounce off. What I've noticed generally in life is that the people who have the strongest and most secure arguments?... they generally don't have to make them.  The folks that make a lot of grandiose statements on Facebook and the like are feeling insecure.  And you don't want to get into an argument there, ya know?


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#20 of 29 Old 02-11-2012, 10:37 AM
 
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I hope you never have to go through anything as devastating as not producing enough milk, and on top of it, having people say things like this to make you feel more awful than you already do.  Failure to produce enough milk is a VERY REAL problem.  I had a home birth, eat an impeccable diet, had plenty of postpartum support, nursed every hour, pumped every two hours around the clock, took a ridiculous amount of herbs and lactogenic supplements, and did not produce enough milk to feed my baby.  I was so bullied by people with ideas like yours and by my LC, that I ignored my pediatrician's advice to supplement with formula.  I suffered because of this, and much worse, my son suffered.  After joining a support group, I have come across hundreds of moms with stories just like mine.  Formula saved my son's life.  I am not lazy.  Milk production was my problem.   You should be grateful that you were able to breastfeed, not full of hatred from those of us who could not.  If you want to continue to spew these ignorant, arrogant, smug thoughts, take it to the "Lactavist" forums.
 

 


If you READ my post you can see that it obviously does not apply to you ~ expecting a baby to go 3 hours between feedings IS lazy...but obviously not you. Do I think it happens ~ yes ~ do I think it happens to almost everyone I know ~ NO. I do believe that the option of formula is considered far too often and recommended by pediatricians without a second thought. Do I think it is sometimes needed ~ of course I do. But then again...you can apply what I said directly to you or take it for what it was...a vent that there are persons out there that simply do not try...

 


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#21 of 29 Old 02-11-2012, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Jules, it's certainly possible that, for whatever reason, you were unable to produce enough milk to feed your baby. You say you did everything right, and I believe you.

 

I also believe we are lucky to have formula for moms who can't produce enough milk.


But there is usually (not always) a clear reason WHY a mom can't produce enough milk, such as improper latch-on, not nursing enough, not getting enough rest, dehydration, having undiagnosed illness that inhibits milk production (such as celiac disease, hashimoto's thyroiditis, diabetes, and other autoimmune disorders), having been given medication that inhibits milk production (like magnesium sulfate), even stress can be a major factor for some women.

 

Another issue is separation of mom and baby.  I produced way less milk when I put my baby to sleep in a crib.  Sleeping with my baby and wearing the baby instead of pushing him in a stroller = instant 30% increase in milk production. 

 

I'm not writing this to imply that you didn't do any of this. I'm writing it for the benefit of any reader who assumes it's common and normal for a healthy nursing mom to not produce enough milk for her baby.



yeahthat.gif

 


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#22 of 29 Old 02-11-2012, 11:24 AM
 
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Lokidoki...I did read your post.  It was condescending, arrogant and hateful.  And, it did not belong on this forum.  This is a forum about vaccinating.  

 

Taximom.... I didn't infer anything negative from your post :)  I usually keep my mouth shut and move on when I see stuff like this, but this one hurt too much.  And I also think it's important to educate and support moms who have to formula feed.  The thing is, what you said is true. so many things can impact breastfeeding, but we really only know the tip of the iceberg.  When the medical community states that 99% of women can BF and if they can't, they're just not doing something right, they do us all a disservice.  We need research into why this is happening.  Like I said in my post, I did everything "right" (although I hate that phrase!)...including co-sleeping, etc... but the most amazing LC in the Boston area was dumfounded by my case.  She also said that she is seeing more and more cases like mine...crunchy healthy moms who home birth, co-sleep, etc etc... and have little to no supply.  We need to research toxins, environmental issues, etc...instead of blaming the victims.  The unfortunate thing is, and the thing that a lot of people don't understand, is that it actually is VERY common lately, for a healthy, nursing mom not to produce enough milk for her baby.  

 

 


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#23 of 29 Old 02-11-2012, 12:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jules33 View Post

Lokidoki...I did read your post.  It was condescending, arrogant and hateful.  And, it did not belong on this forum.  This is a forum about vaccinating.  

 

Taximom.... I didn't infer anything negative from your post :)  I usually keep my mouth shut and move on when I see stuff like this, but this one hurt too much.  And I also think it's important to educate and support moms who have to formula feed.  The thing is, what you said is true. so many things can impact breastfeeding, but we really only know the tip of the iceberg.  When the medical community states that 99% of women can BF and if they can't, they're just not doing something right, they do us all a disservice.  We need research into why this is happening.  Like I said in my post, I did everything "right" (although I hate that phrase!)...including co-sleeping, etc... but the most amazing LC in the Boston area was dumfounded by my case.  She also said that she is seeing more and more cases like mine...crunchy healthy moms who home birth, co-sleep, etc etc... and have little to no supply.  We need to research toxins, environmental issues, etc...instead of blaming the victims.  The unfortunate thing is, and the thing that a lot of people don't understand, is that it actually is VERY common lately, for a healthy, nursing mom not to produce enough milk for her baby.  

 

 


What I was discussing was choices without education behind them ~ and my frustration with friends around me who HAVE made lazy decisions. Perhaps you can (maybe even at a later time) take yourself out of the equation and read again. I was stating that my friends completely QUIT BF after only 6 weeks (didn't continue and supplement with formula or even seek additional help) because the doctors all told them it was a lack of milk production. The babies in these instances were thriving (gaining weight and growing on target) ~ yet they were wanting to nurse every 1 1/2 hours...this is not a failure to thrive or a failure to produce milk...it is a failure of education in these instances. I was not talking about YOU or YOUR instance but in my frustration with MY experience. I see the same thing about vaccinations ~ I have many friends who come to me and ask me about my experience with not vaxing, ultimately choose not to educate themselves and then fuss about having a baby that has severe fever/vax reactions. It is hard and frustrating when there is not more of a drive to educate first.

 

It just so happens that with my first son I supplemented with formula because I WAS LAZY ~ I took what my doctor was saying at face value when my son was a newborn and did not have the support of a great lactation consultant. Lucky for me I did my research, applied it to my situation and became convicted enough about my decisions before DS2 and we have had complete and total success this time around. Certainly this is not the experience for everyone ~ but it has been for me. I fully admit that I was lazy without intending to be ~ I had no clue that a baby could/would need to be fed so often as a newborn because my doctor and lacation consultant were all stating the "2-3 hour" rule. This is not nor was my "vent" before a statement about YOU and your situation...it was a statement about the friends around me that have been frustrating me. They simply stopped BF and went to formula feeding because their newborns wanted to be fed every 1 1/2 hours ~ that is FAR different than a case of "not producing enough milk".

 


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#24 of 29 Old 02-11-2012, 02:18 PM
 
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Umm, I think you two (Jules and Lokidoki) might actually be on the same page here...

 

Lokidoki, I know EXACTLY what you mean, but I hesitate to brand moms as "lazy" if nobody ever bothered to tell them that it's often necessary to nurse more than every 90 minutes, and no, it doesn't mean they don't have enough milk.  How can it be LAZY to believe the advice given by your doctor if you've never heard anyone contradict that "knowledge?"

 

I blame the medical profession.  I got SCOLDED by the nurse for nursing #2 son on demand, which turned out to be every 20-30 minutes, which, good girl that I am, I duly notated on the chart.  She insisted that I should not feed him more often than every 2 hours.  She had me in tears, but I did keep it together enough to ask her if SHE wanted to teach him to tell time.

 

But then the doctor came in, and because the baby had not peed at 8 hours old, he insisted that I give him formula, in spite of the fact that I was already producing milk, and we could hear audible sucking/swallowing sounds from the baby as he nursed.  I even threatened to squirt the doctor in the face.ROTFLMAO.gif

This wasn't that long ago. 

 

Jules, that must have been awful.  I think you bring up a very important point:  is there something medical going on that is inhibiting milk production in new moms (besides the already-recognized history of medical stupidity where breastfeeding is concerned, I mean)?

 

I didn't produce any milk at all for the first 5 days of #1 son's life.  I pumped every 3 hours around the clock, and got NUTHIN', not even a single drop of colostrum, until the end of the 5th day.

 

I had been given magnesium sulfate during labor, which apparently can inhibit milk production.  My hypothyroidism was not well-managed, so that was another strike against milk production.  And my baby had a reaction to the hep B shot, which resulted in his not opening his eyes for the first week.

 

I don't think there's anything in my experience that is necessarily duplicated in yours, Jules.

 

And yet--I wonder...could this inhibited milk production be a sign of some kind of sub-clinical autoimmune disorder?  You could be right about environmental toxins.

 

When an infant is exposed to a virus, the mother's breast responds by instantly manufacturing antibodies to that virus.  I wonder if an infant's being vaxed at 4 hours old for hep B can somehow screw up the milk production process?

 

 

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#25 of 29 Old 02-11-2012, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Umm, I think you two (Jules and Lokidoki) might actually be on the same page here...

 

Lokidoki, I know EXACTLY what you mean, but I hesitate to brand moms as "lazy" if nobody ever bothered to tell them that it's often necessary to nurse more than every 90 minutes, and no, it doesn't mean they don't have enough milk.  How can it be LAZY to believe the advice given by your doctor if you've never heard anyone contradict that "knowledge?"

 

 

I use the term lazy in that ~ I felt that in hindsight I was being lazy even though I was listening to a doctor. Nursing a baby every 90 minutes is tough work ~ especially when you might have other children or you work (I do not but for working mom's I can imagine that breastfeeding is very sacrificing). I think making the choice to listen to the medical profession to "replace" something natural for something like formula and/or vaccination is in fact lazy if you are doing it just because they say to do it (even if you are doing it with the best of intentions). I am not saying it with as much negative conotation as seems to have been taken (which seems to happen with computer conversations). In the particular cases I referenced ~ they are indeed being lazy and I do mean that they are not BF their children because they did not want to put forth the effort to do it and did not try everything to continue BF or even try to do both and they were not cases of "lack of milk"...(and I could go on but this is not a discussion regarding BF children).

 

In a broader sense ~ and regarding the vaccine issue ~ I think that it is "lazy" to rely upon others to make educated choices. It is easy to say "my doctor told me to do it" and much more difficult to research and read and dig deep ~ and make the decision because the time has been spent to make an educated decision (not because a doctor told you so). I respect the decision of others to vaccinate their children when they make an educated decision to vaccinate (because I can see standpoints from where there can be enough information to back this decision).

 

And indeed ~ I do not feel that Jules and I have positions that are different ~ what I took issue with was her defending the instances I have experienced recently within my group of friends ~ which is not a lack of milk production at all and is incredibly frustrating for me to sit idly by and watch.


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#26 of 29 Old 02-12-2012, 06:15 AM
 
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But, Loki, how would they even know that nursing every 90 minutes--or more-- would work, if their doctor is telling them it won't?

 

If you go to the doctor for an illness, and he gives you a diagnosis and "solution" (i.e., medication), do you look it upto see if he's wrong?  Okay, I WOULD, but most people don't--it never occurs to them, any more than it occurs to them to doublecheck the plumber's diagnosis.

 

99% of us are operating under the illusion that doctors know about breastfeeding!  OBGYNs think it's a feeding issue, and therefore the pediatricians' turf. But peds  1) are taught by formula company reps and don't realize they are GROSSLY misinformed, or 2) think it's a mother's body issue, and therefore the OBGYNS' turf.

 

Im a huge LLL fan, but have run into some unfortunately unpleasant characters there, who gave the w hole organization a bad image in my little town.  Thank heavens I found one who was wonderful, but what about the mums who run into bad apples every way they turn?  There are an awful lot of them.....

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#27 of 29 Old 02-12-2012, 06:45 AM
 
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But, Loki, how would they even know that nursing every 90 minutes--or more-- would work, if their doctor is telling them it won't?

 

If you go to the doctor for an illness, and he gives you a diagnosis and "solution" (i.e., medication), do you look it upto see if he's wrong?  Okay, I WOULD, but most people don't--it never occurs to them, any more than it occurs to them to doublecheck the plumber's diagnosis.

 

99% of us are operating under the illusion that doctors know about breastfeeding!  OBGYNs think it's a feeding issue, and therefore the pediatricians' turf. But peds  1) are taught by formula company reps and don't realize they are GROSSLY misinformed, or 2) think it's a mother's body issue, and therefore the OBGYNS' turf.

 

Im a huge LLL fan, but have run into some unfortunately unpleasant characters there, who gave the w hole organization a bad image in my little town.  Thank heavens I found one who was wonderful, but what about the mums who run into bad apples every way they turn?  There are an awful lot of them.....


Ultimately I think with regards to BF and vaccinations ~ it is the easy aka lazy thing to make that assumption. YES ~ people do it all the time (assume the doctor knows everything about everything). I did that with my first child at first (started to get wise about 4 months into it and started researching on my own and making my own convictions). Not to further hijack the thread ~ but my friends I talked about in particular HAVE been told by me and a few others that what their babies were doing had nothing to do with lack of milk production. They did not look into it further and decided to take the word of the doctors simply because they are doctors which I think in the end comes out to being a lazy approach (like it or not). I am venting here ~ and like I said...I (in my opinion) took the lazy approach with the first 4 months of DS1's life. I did not do it knowingly but once I look back I see that I was very aware of the advice around me urging me to not supplement with formula (my sister and friends) and to not vaccinate (previously stopped vaxing my pets before I had children for much of the same reasons)...

 

Ultimately I think that the choice to take a doctor's advice at face value is an "easy" or otherwise "lazy" approach to medical care. Agree or disagree ~ it is okay thumbsup.gif

I do not expect everyone to agree with that...and it is really okay. Like I have said many times ~ I put my prior self when I first had DS1 into that category so know that I am pointing that finger at myself too.


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#28 of 29 Old 02-12-2012, 09:10 AM
 
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Okay, I see your point, and mostly agree with it, too.

 

I guess in my family, and my husband's as well, doctors have always been revered, and it is pretty much considered heresy to think that you would actually second-guess the expert---arguing with the pediatrician is kinda like arguing with the Pope. blush.gif  I'm kind of the black sheep of the family, daring to think that I might know better than the expert who went to Medical School.

 

And I see the same dang attitude in so many of my friends and colleagues, too.  Just this week, one of my colleagues was telling me how his 1-year-old has his first ear infection, and why he is therefore on antibiotics, and before I could stop myself, "but, most ear infections are viral, nor bacterial, look it up!" popped out of my mouth.

 

My colleague was understandably quite ticked off, and muttered, "well, I'll be sure to tell the pediatrician that," rather sarcastically.

 

And I can't blame him for being ticked off.

 

Or can I?

 

(Sorry if this hijacks the thread further!!)

 

 

 

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#29 of 29 Old 02-12-2012, 10:22 AM
 
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Okay, I see your point, and mostly agree with it, too.

 

I guess in my family, and my husband's as well, doctors have always been revered, and it is pretty much considered heresy to think that you would actually second-guess the expert---arguing with the pediatrician is kinda like arguing with the Pope. blush.gif  I'm kind of the black sheep of the family, daring to think that I might know better than the expert who went to Medical School.

 

And I see the same dang attitude in so many of my friends and colleagues, too.  Just this week, one of my colleagues was telling me how his 1-year-old has his first ear infection, and why he is therefore on antibiotics, and before I could stop myself, "but, most ear infections are viral, nor bacterial, look it up!" popped out of my mouth.

 

My colleague was understandably quite ticked off, and muttered, "well, I'll be sure to tell the pediatrician that," rather sarcastically.

 

And I can't blame him for being ticked off.

 

Or can I?

 

(Sorry if this hijacks the thread further!!)

 

 

 



Ultimately ~ obviously ~ it is their own decision to either question or not question the authority of a doctor (or second guess...or whatever one would call it). Like I said before ~ I (personally) feel it is taking the easy way out. Who really wants to know the pros/cons and make the decision for themselves (thereby assuming the weight of the outcome ~ good and bad)? It is easy to take the advice of the doctor and then when something goes wrong ~ you blame the doctor...whereas when you make the best decision based upon your own education and research it ultimately becomes your own weight to carry. There are so many spectrums of life where you can apply this ~ from the foods you eat to trusting the FDA and CDC, etc. And obviously there are places where you take assumed risk and have to trust to some degree...or choose to be "lazy" (as I have done myself on some particular areas because obviously one only has so much time) and take information at face value. I think FAR too often we look to push the blame to other places and not shoulder it ourselves ~ perhaps the reason my term "lazy" got such attention. Good or bad ~ better or worse ~ choosing to listen to the advice of others (in whatever profession) and take it at face value without any comprehension of what you are accepting is indeed a lazy approach. No matter the profession ~

 

I could go on and on but essentially I think we (as a society) have gotten complacent in the regard that we take the word of others rather than recognizing we need to really seek what is best for ourselves and our families. I am not saying that the advice and direction of others is of no value ~ but it is only valuable when put together with our own application and recognition of our own circumstances. For instance ~ I send my child to a public school (our neighborhood elementary school) and he has done very well in kindergarten this year...but his teachers can only do so much and without the support at home to continue his learning and growing in his education...he would not excell. I feel that health care is much the same ~ I take my children to the doctor but that is only 30 mins (at best) of time with my children ~ I see them daily and know what works best for them. If they get sick with something my first step is to apply my own research regarding whatever they might have instead of running to the doctor to get antibiotics (neither of my sons have actually ever had antibiotics).

 

Granted ~ I am very aware that it is not the norm to take this approach...thus my term of "lazy"...and yes, I do think it is lazy, easy, etc. Whether one knows to do it or not...we are all responsible for ourselves and our own health ~ and it is likely we would all be in much better health (as a society) if this approach was taken.

 

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