Asked to sign an insanely condescending letter at my new pediatrician's office... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'd love to hear some suggestions about this...

 

I visited our new pediatrician's office (our actual doc was out so we had to see his sidekick) yesterday for a 4 week weight check for my new son.  At the very end of the visit I was given a sheet to look over, sign, and return at our next visit.  It is full of the usual unsubstantiated propaganda that I expected, but also full of self-implicating, condescending, almost sarcastic language that I know was no accident.  I will only sign it if new doc agrees to attach a letter of my own that I plan on writing.  I have done a decent amount of research, although admittedly not nearly as much as some of you on this board!  The area that I'm really not clear about is the concept of herd immunity.  There is a section that I have to initial, stating that "I know I will be putting other children at risk of serious illness by declining vaccination for my own child".  This is completely absurd to me, but I'm not sure how to back up my opinion aside from the obvious "how can this be true if vaccines actually work?"

 

Any thoughts??


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#2 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 10:47 AM
 
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Just refuse to sign it.  If the doc won't let you stay in his practice, find another one who is more respectful of your choices.

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#3 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 12:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jules33 View Post
The area that I'm really not clear about is the concept of herd immunity.  There is a section that I have to initial, stating that "I know I will be putting other children at risk of serious illness by declining vaccination for my own child".  This is completely absurd to me, but I'm not sure how to back up my opinion aside from the obvious "how can this be true if vaccines actually work?"

 

Any thoughts??

 

Whilst it may sound absurd, it has a degree of truth to it.

 

Say child A is unvaxxed and contracts measles. Child A is unaware and goes out into public and mingles with child B (who is vaxxed). Even though child B is vaxxed, he still contracts measles. How and why, you ask? Child B is part of the group that doesn't elicit the correct immune response following vaccination and theoretically, they are just as high risk for contracting the disease as an unvaxxed person is.

 

So even though they are vaccinated and considered to be 'protected', they aren't.

 

Vaccines, for the most part, work but will always fall short of being 100% effective. The problem is we can never determine who they worked for.


 

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#4 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LoveOurBabies View Post

 

Whilst it may sound absurd, it has a degree of truth to it.

 

Say child A is unvaxxed and contracts measles. Child A is unaware and goes out into public and mingles with child B (who is vaxxed). Even though child B is vaxxed, he still contracts measles. How and why, you ask? Child B is part of the group that doesn't elicit the correct immune response following vaccination and theoretically, they are just as high risk for contracting the disease as an unvaxxed person is.

 

So even though they are vaccinated and considered to be 'protected', they aren't.

 

Vaccines, for the most part, work but will always fall short of being 100% effective. The problem is we can never determine who they worked for.

 

Right, but the reason it is absurd is that no one has to sign a form saying that they understand that vaccines aren't 100% effective and that even a fully vaxxed individual can transmit VPDs.  The assumption and implication is that a vaccinated individual is protected.


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#5 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Whilst it may sound absurd, it has a degree of truth to it.

 

Say child A is unvaxxed and contracts measles. Child A is unaware and goes out into public and mingles with child B (who is vaxxed). Even though child B is vaxxed, he still contracts measles. How and why, you ask? Child B is part of the group that doesn't elicit the correct immune response following vaccination and theoretically, they are just as high risk for contracting the disease as an unvaxxed person is.

 

So even though they are vaccinated and considered to be 'protected', they aren't.

 

Vaccines, for the most part, work but will always fall short of being 100% effective. The problem is we can never determine who they worked for.

Yes, but to me, this proves my point, not the establishment's point...that child B's illness is not the direct result of child A being unvaccinated, but of child B being vaccinated.  Because, we all, sick or not, carry and pass pathogens all the time.  Whether or not we become ill depends on many factors, one of which is having a well-working immune system, which is IMO, impeded by vaccines. 


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#6 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 01:46 PM
 
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Good grief on the sheet.

 

Hopefully you get your doctor back soon, and that he/she does not bring up the sheet.

 

If someone does bring up the sheet, I would probably claim I forgot. Stonewall them a bit.

 

If they are insistent, I would let them know I was not willing to sign the sheet.  I would let them know I was willing to discuss my reasons if they like, but that I would not be vaxxing or signing the sheet at this point. 

 

If they cannot handle that, you might want to look around for a new doctor.

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#7 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 06:09 PM
 
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I would look around for a new doctor NOW, rather than wait.  And I wouldn't sign their form unless the doctor's office signs one saying they understand that vaccinations can cause seizures, brain damage, and death, and that they will waive their right to indemnity and assume liability shouldyour child have a severe reaction to any vaccine given as per their recommendation.

 

But, of course, they will be pissed off at you and refuse to treat your child, so maybe it's not such a good idea, after all, but I'm sure you'd enjoy SAYING it to them!hopmad.gif

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#8 of 18 Old 05-27-2012, 07:43 AM
 
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Yes, but to me, this proves my point, not the establishment's point...that child B's illness is not the direct result of child A being unvaccinated, but of child B being vaccinated.  Because, we all, sick or not, carry and pass pathogens all the time.  Whether or not we become ill depends on many factors, one of which is having a well-working immune system, which is IMO, impeded by vaccines. 

 

I agree that we do carry and pass on pathogens all of the time. I am also a strong believer in immunity.

 

However...

 

I think you missed the point of my post. You asked 'how can this be true if vaccines actually work?' and mentioned that you weren't well versed on herd immunity. I explained the 'how' part from the medical community's point of view, which is based entirely on herd immunity: The more people (theoretically) protected, the less chance we have overall of harboring and spreading disease between one another. This is the simplified version of their belief. Of course, we all know it's a little more complex than that.

 

We can agree that the medical community believes in the following:

-That when one is vaxxed, they are protected to a degree

-The unvaxxed are not protected whatsoever and can harbor and transmit these VPD's more readily than a vaxxed individual

-Because vaxxed people are only protected to a degree, they can still contract VPD's, which they will most likely contract from an individual with no prior immunity (i.e unvaxxed)

 

They do not believe in:

-Vaccines impeding the immune system

-A vaxxed individual being more likely to catch a VPD, than a non vaxxed individual

-That one can bypass catching a VPD through a strong immune system

 

Their waiver is based on their belief system, not yours, so I'm perplexed as to why you find signing a waiver such as this, absurd. This is what they believe in!

Personally, I think this a non issue - I would not have even thought twice about the letter, but instead started to look for another practice. Think ahead to the future and imagine you need to treat one of the VPD's using natural methods. Do you think they will be supportive and knowledgeable about using natural methods? Probably not.


 

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#9 of 18 Old 05-28-2012, 04:53 AM
 
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don't sign anything like that and look around for a family practitioner instead of a pedi...or you can find a naturpath,  homeopath, or osteopath,  if you'd rather...they all treat children too. 

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#10 of 18 Old 05-28-2012, 04:16 PM
 
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I'd sign it if it was the best doctor I could find and they were supportive in other ways...But I would attach my own letter to it like you said.  I think it's a good form of peaceful protest.  If you don't like the doctor anyway, just find another!  They are just trying to cover their butts in case of a lawsuit so if your kids got a VPD and had a bad outcome you couldn't sue them and say you didn't know what the risks to not vaccinating are.  I agree it's silly since they should be giving these CYA letters to parents who are vaxxing to tell them about the possibly vaccine reactions...But they don't because they are working on "standard of care" for public health.  Don't get me started about my distaste for public health in general.  They always work towards the lowest common denominator.


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#11 of 18 Old 05-29-2012, 09:08 AM
 
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Just to give you some perspective on that sheet, at our office it is a simple, 3-sentence form that you were advised to get a scheduled shot, and that you refused.  I'm happy to sign that one-- lets the clinic feel like they are covering their asses in case I sue or whatever (or whatever).  

 

If the ped is having you sign a form written in such a way, you know that's probably not going to be the end of it.  I'd find another doctor.


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#12 of 18 Old 05-29-2012, 02:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LoveOurBabies View Post

 

Whilst it may sound absurd, it has a degree of truth to it.

 

Say child A is unvaxxed and contracts measles. Child A is unaware and goes out into public and mingles with child B (who is vaxxed). Even though child B is vaxxed, he still contracts measles. How and why, you ask? Child B is part of the group that doesn't elicit the correct immune response following vaccination and theoretically, they are just as high risk for contracting the disease as an unvaxxed person is.

 

So even though they are vaccinated and considered to be 'protected', they aren't.

 

Vaccines, for the most part, work but will always fall short of being 100% effective. The problem is we can never determine who they worked for.

 

Yes, or... 

 

Child B is too young to have been vaccinated, so is depending on the vaccines of others to keep them safe.  

 

Or, Child B has a health condition which means they can't be vaccinated, so depends on the vaccines of others to keep them from being exposed to the disease in the first place. 

 

Or, Child B was vaccinated and developed immunity, but now is undergoing chemotherapy and/or radiation for cancer which has significantly compromised their immune system, so again is depending on others being immune and so unable to expose Child B.  

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#13 of 18 Old 05-29-2012, 03:15 PM
 
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Nice of you to chime in.


 
 
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#14 of 18 Old 05-30-2012, 03:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LoveOurBabies View Post

 

Whilst it may sound absurd, it has a degree of truth to it.

 

Say child A is unvaxxed and contracts measles. Child A is unaware and goes out into public and mingles with child B (who is vaxxed). Even though child B is vaxxed, he still contracts measles. How and why, you ask? Child B is part of the group that doesn't elicit the correct immune response following vaccination and theoretically, they are just as high risk for contracting the disease as an unvaxxed person is.

 

So even though they are vaccinated and considered to be 'protected', they aren't.

 

Vaccines, for the most part, work but will always fall short of being 100% effective. The problem is we can never determine who they worked for.

Okay, so let's use a similar example. Say Child A gets his measles vaccine, and is one of the rare people who contract measles following the vaccine. Before he shows symptoms, he goes to the public and mingles with Child B, who is vaxxed. Child B is part of the group that doesn't elicit the correct immune response following vaccination and catches measles. Should child A's mother have had to sign something saying, "I know shedding is a small risk when getting live virus vaccines. If I take my child out in public over the next couple weeks, I am putting other children at risk." Why or why not?

The doctors certainly don't have vaccinating parents sign something listing all the possible reactions from a vaccine saying, "By injecting your child with a,b, and c, they are at risk for x,y, and z, up to and including brain damage and death."

 

That said, if otherwise you like your doc, initial it. If not, find a new one. :)


"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." ~Mark Twain

 


 
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#15 of 18 Old 05-30-2012, 05:09 AM
 
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Op, if you want to read a discussion on herd immunity, this one was good:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1319858/herd-immunity-science-and-philosophy-of

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#16 of 18 Old 06-02-2012, 03:53 PM
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Reminder that you are in I'm not Vaccinating.  Please don't come to the forum to post pro-vax arguments, or to otherwise "enlighten" the masses.

 

Thanks

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#17 of 18 Old 06-03-2012, 10:58 AM
 
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Legally and morally, your doctor cannot ask you to sign anything of the sort (well, at least not in Canada). The only time it would be an issue is upon admission to a school or public daycare and at that time, you would need to have an affidavit stating that it is either agaist your religious or moral beliefs. I would not sign it and if I were in your shoes, I would find a new doctor that is willing to have an open unbiased discussion with you in regards to your decision to not vax.

 

My husband and I really struggled with our decision for many reasons and in the end we were able to have a conversation with our family doctor and not be judged for our beliefs and/or concerns which I might add are very valid. Our doctor explained her position to us and provided us with the "usual" propaganda; however, in the end it was and is "our" decision and our doctor accepted and respected it.

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#18 of 18 Old 06-03-2012, 11:22 AM
 
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Personally, if he's got something written in that condescending, sarcastic tone, that's his attitude. I would find another dr. I have a GREAT naturalist who is also an MD. He's getting old, not sure what I'll do when he retires. : {


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