"1 in 100 who get pertussis will die" - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-05-2012, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Will someone explain where they are getting this information from!?! (it's from the cdc website: http://www.cdc.gov/Features/Pertussis/ )

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Old 06-05-2012, 09:57 PM
 
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Well, first it does say:

 

 

Quote:

Pertussis is most severe for babies; more than half of infants younger than 1 year of age who get the disease must be hospitalized. About 1 in 5 infants with pertussis get pneumonia (lung infection), and about 1 in 100 will have convulsions. In rare cases (1 in 100), pertussis can be deadly, especially in infants.

 

So, 1% of cases have the possibility of being deadly. 

 

Two paragraphs later it said:

 

 

Quote:

 In 2010, 27,550 cases of pertussis were reported in the U.S.—and many more cases go unreported. Twenty-seven deaths were reported – 25 of these deaths were in children younger than 1 year old.

 

That is a death rate of 1: 1,000 reported cases and they say that many go unreported.  In fact:

 

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/803186-overview#a0199

 

Quote:

 The CDC estimates that 5-10% of all cases of pertussis are recognized and reported.

 

Since only 5-10% of cases are recognized and reported that would give a 1: 10K-20K death rate.

 

Of course, the chance of death in very young children (under 3 months) is MUCH higher than those of older children (over 5) or adults.


 

 

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Old 06-05-2012, 10:03 PM
 
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Umm, I'd guess from the manufacturers of the pertu$$i$ vaccines?  It's certainly a great example of fear-mongering.

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:08 AM
 
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the 1 in 100 number is specific to infants, the numbers given later are not.  I would think that fewer cases go unreported in infants than older people.

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:18 AM
 
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It really would help there if the CDC linked the source for the statistics. I went to the WHO site on Pertusiss, which is this: 

 

http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/pertussis/en/index.html

 

But it doesn't separate the statistics by age either, which I think is the problem. 

 

A quick Google though and I find this study (free to read) in the Journal of the American Medical Association. 

 

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?volume=290&issue=22&page=2968

 

which looks at incidence of Pertusis in the 1980s and 1990s. Their table shows that 1% of cases of Pertusis in infants 0-1 yr between 1990-1999 resulted in death. 

 

I don't think any of the authors are from manufacturers of the pertusiss vaccine. Please correct me if that's wrong. I think JAMA is a reputable publication, so I assume even if they are this is a valid study. 

 

Actually it is interesting that one of their conclusions is that vaccination alone doesn't seem to be helping babies under 4 months old who were increasingly likely over the period 1980-1990 to catch pertususs, although they cite increased vaccine in the 1990s over the 1980s (they say it started in 1996) for a lack of increase among 5mth-12mth olds - who I assume were more likely to have been vaccinated (I forget when the babies are recommended to first get this one!). 

 

Interesting study. :) And it is clearly a scary disease for infants. Let's hope the rates don't increase too much more. 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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Old 06-06-2012, 04:22 PM
 
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Actually it is interesting that one of their conclusions is that vaccination alone doesn't seem to be helping babies under 4 months old who were increasingly likely over the period 1980-1990 to catch pertususs, although they cite increased vaccine in the 1990s over the 1980s (they say it started in 1996) for a lack of increase among 5mth-12mth olds - who I assume were more likely to have been vaccinated (I forget when the babies are recommended to first get this one!). 

 

 

nuku ( a fellow poster - and IMHO a fairly credible one) said last week that the first DaPT shot was a primer of sorts for Pertussis, and that you needed two shots for any effectiveness level to kick in.  The second shot is not until 4 months. I cannot hunt for it at this moment to see if she cited it, but will look later if you like.  Let me know.

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Old 06-06-2012, 04:25 PM
 
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Nuku seems especially well researched when it comes to pertussis.
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:54 PM
 
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I don't know if this stat is helpful but presumed number of cases per adults and adolescents is 800,000-3.3 million in the US per year. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15867059

This study is interesting, no EBF infants were admitted per bacterial infection:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/65/6/1121.short

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Old 06-06-2012, 05:58 PM
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Despite the fact that the whooping cough vaccines actually cause an increase in the risk of being infected with whooping cough, every time a whooping cough outbreak occurs, there's a mad rush of everybody screaming, "Vaccinate! Vaccinate! Vaccinate!"


...
 
Whooping cough vaccines, it turns out, do nothing to reduce the rate of whooping cough infections. But they do accomplish something else that's even more important for Big Pharma. Care to guess what that is?

You guessed it: Whooping cough vaccines keep whooping cough in circulation! The vaccines cause the very disease they claim to treat, so the more kids get vaccinated, the more outbreaks occur! This then results in more people calling for more vaccines, which causes even more whooping cough outbreaks to occur, and this sick profiteering cycle of vaccine quackery repeats itself over and over until children are pumped full of useless vaccines while the drug companies bank on record profits and all the parents are living in fear.

The drug companies figured it out a long time ago, see? The best way to SELL a vaccine that claims to treat a disease is to make sure the vaccine contains the disease! Thus, the vaccination itself becomes the pathway to re-infection and repeat business!
 
IMO what is  happening with pertussis is clear
 
The "vaccination" of the parents prevents the transfer of immunization from mother to fetus thus the baby is born with less immunity to pertussis and then the baby's brother comes home from being "vaccinated" for pertussis and coughs on the baby.
 
EASY to test this hypothesis.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:09 PM
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"Actually it is interesting that one of their conclusions is that vaccination alone doesn't seem to be helping babies under 4 months old who were increasingly likely over the period 1980-1990 to catch pertususs ..."

 

Before we started "vaccinating" for pertussis babies under six months were 3% of those who caught pertussis. Now it is about 25% of the cases. So this wonderful "pertussis vaccine" has transferred it from those to whom it is little threat to those to whom it is the BIGGEST threat.

 

A little more "progress" like this and we are finished.
 

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:10 PM
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So Kathy what do you think?

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:14 PM
 
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So wait, the vaccine keeps the mother from getting it do she can't pass on immunity, but causes the brother to get it?

This explains why the pertussis rate went up so much when we started vaccinating. Oh wait.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Louisw View Post

 
IMO what is  happening with pertussis is clear
 
The "vaccination" of the parents prevents the transfer of immunization from mother to fetus thus the baby is born with less immunity to pertussis and then the baby's brother comes home from being "vaccinated" for pertussis and coughs on the baby.
 
EASY to test this hypothesis.

 

The CDC KNOWS this or I'll eat my hat. Everybody else has figured it out.

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

So wait, the vaccine keeps the mother from getting it do she can't pass on immunity, but causes the brother to get it?
This explains why the pertussis rate went up so much when we started vaccinating. Oh wait.

 

Rachel you are forgetting the "pertussis vaccine" the mother got did not confer long term immunity from pertussis on her it kept her from contracting the wild pertussis and thus developing immunity to pertussis. What ever "immunity" the mother got was GONE in less than five years. She had NOTHING to pass on.

 

The brother had the pertussis vaccine which he delivered to his baby sister. Most "vaccines" give you a weak form of the disease. Baby sis could not fight it.

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:40 PM
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Healthy kids are not vaccinated kids

Want to find the healthiest children in America? Find families who follow these rules:


#1) They live on small farms and their children play in the dirt (they have contact with nature).
#2) Their children are all home schooled.
#3) None of their children are vaccinated.
#4) They drink raw milk and eat farm fresh foods.

As you will readily find, these are the healthiest, smartest kids in America! They don't have problems with autism, allergies, cancer or ADHD. They are bright, healthy, and easily capable of surviving an infection of chicken pox.

The least healthy children in America are vaccinated children who eat public school food (GMOs) and never spend time in nature. These are the asthmatics, the diabetics, the ADHD cases, the suicidal psych drug takers. They're vaccine damaged and nutritionally depleted, and they catch every cold every winter, it seems, you know what I mean?

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:43 PM
 
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Thanks for thinking I'm well researched when it comes to DTaP.  I admit I get a bit OCD about things.  When I really want to know about something I get pretty single minded, especially when pregnant.  (Last pregnancy it was oral Vitamin K, you can ask me any question you like about that too, LOL.)

 

So how DTaP works (and this comes straight from the 17 page package insert from Sanofi Pasteur's Daptacel which I read many times and highlighted, as well as the CDC MMWR from 2008)  Is that how the DTaP works is that the first dose is a priming dose.  This is not just for pertussis, this is also for tetanus and diptheria.  The baby gets no immunity from any of those 3 disease with that first dose.  The second dose starts to build immunity (and so forth).  For tetanus and diptheria after 2 doses (priming and second) studies showed children had 98% immunity (if you believe in titers as a marker for immunity, which I personally do.)  However the manufacturer thought that the data might be skewed because a 4mo old infant (which most are at the time they get the second dose on the traditional schedule) still is getting some T and D antibodies from the mother because they are (hopefully) breastfeeding and most mothers have been vaccinated and still have these antibodies.  T and D antibodies do pass easily through breastmilk, while pertussis do not (whether it is natural immunity from a mother's past infection or passive from a mother's past vaccine---MMWR 2008.)  So the manufacturers of DTaP to either CYA (cover their ass) or "just to make sure" decided to add another dose to make a full series of DT 3 doses, just "in case" there is interference from maternal antibodies.  That is why kids who cannot have the pertussis part of the DTaP and get pediatric DT only need 3 doses to make a full series.

 

So that's the D and T parts of DTaP.  You didn't ask but I wanted to give a background.

 

For pertussis, it's not cut and dry.  The old vaccine (DTP) was much more efficient.  Not only did it cover both pertussis and parapertussis (the acellular version does not cover parapertussis), it was more effective, and it only needed 3 doses to make a primary series, just like the T and D parts.  If you read old literature they call 3 doses a primary series for DTP, and some (many) nurses and doctors still quote that "3 doses is all you need for pertussis protection" stat because they learned it before the DTP was abandoned for the DTaP.  It's not true for DTaP and I hate when medical providers give parents false reassurance that their 6 mo old is protected from pertussis after 3 doses of DTaP.  Not many question why it was abandoned, as it was the most reactive of all vaccines at the time, but with the reformulation to the acellular pertussis version it lost both its good efficacy as well as its ability to get adequate immunity from 3 doses.  With DTaP you need FOUR doses of the vaccine to create the 56-80% immunity statistic (Sanofi Pasteur Daptacel package info).  There have been NO studies as to what percentage immunity one gets from dose 2 and 3.  I don't know why, it seems like such a good idea.  

 

So to summarize (if you are scanning this) dose 1 of DTaP is purely a "priming dose".  Dose 2, 3, and 4 are the rest of the "series".  The series is complete after dose 4, which on the traditional schedule is 12-18 months.  However a booster dose 5 around age 4-5 is recommended because children tend to lose their immunity from the series very quickly.  The next booster is at age 11-12 but there is talk that there will be another booster added around age 8 eventually, as in most kids they gradually lose their immunity to pertussis between the booster at 4-5 and again at 11-12.

 

I personally think this is a good case for making a single "pertussis only" vaccine and taking it out of the DTaP.  Because we are giving kids way, way too much D and T to try to make up for the inadequacy of the aP part, while still trying to make it a 3 in one vax which was only sensible when it was a whole cell version.  Then kids can get a 3 dose DT series, and get one single pertussis vaccine to make up the rest of the initial series and then periodic pertussis boosters, since the D and T only need boosters every 10 years, and it looks like pertussis needs them every 3-4.

 

Anyway, this is related to the 1 in 100 stat because they were talking about babies under age 6 months, since they are not protected from pertussis anyway even if they are vaxxed on schedule, until they get that final dose at 12-18 months.  That's not to say the second and third doses do nothing, as they offer some immunity building the initial dose, it's just no-one knows how much.  Anecdotally, it should not prevent them from getting pertussis, but it should make them have a weak antibody response when they do get infected, and thus have a milder case.  This is not scientifically proven, though it is mentioned anecdotally again and again.

 

However, the 1 in 100 stat is a very, very old stat.  I don't know the exact year it is from, but I bet it's from decades ago.  With modern medical care, the percentage of babies who get hospitalized for pertussis is high (esp. under 3 months of age) but the death rate is no longer 1 in 100 in the USA.  I can't remember off the top of my head the numbers, but I know it is discussed with statistics to back it up in the MMWR for Diptheria, Tetanus, and  Pertussis for pregnant and breastfeeding women and their babies from 2008.  I read (and highlighted) relevant parts in that massive 70+ page document, but that was when I was trying to make my own vaccine decision, and I admit I was happy when I finally threw it in the recycling after carting it around and pouring over it for weeks.  I just couldn't look at it anymore :)  If you are interested in seeing the actual stats (from 2008, not super recent but it's the best we have) you can look it up online on the CDC website.

 

Hope this is helpful to someone, somewhere out there!


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Old 06-06-2012, 06:45 PM
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Big Surprise - Whooping Cough Spreads Mainly through Vaccinated Populations

 

In 2010, the largest outbreak of whooping cough in over 50 years reportedly occurred in California. Around that same time, a scare campaign was launched in the California by Pharma-funded medical trade associations, state health officials and national media targeting people opting out of using pertussis vaccine, falsely accusing them of causing the then-current whooping cough outbreak.

 

But new research released last month paints a very different picture than the one being spread by the media.In fact, the study showed that 81 percent of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine.

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/17/pertussis-vaccine-for-whooping-cough-effects.aspx?e_cid=20120422_SNL_MS_1

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:49 PM
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Whooping Cough Vaccine Protection Fades in Three Years

 

The featured study also suggests that the acellular pertussis vaccine loses much of its effectiveness after just three years. This is much faster than previously believed, and could also help explain the recent whooping cough outbreaks in the U.S.

 

Unfortunately, stacking on additional booster shots is likely to make matters worse rather than better, especially in light of the fact that the mass use of existing pertussis vaccines has already led to vaccine-resistant strains that are still evolving and could become much more virulent.

 

The new mutation, which some researchers are calling "P3," is a strain that produces more pertussis toxin. Pertussis toxin is the part of B. pertussis bacteria that is most responsible for the neurological complications of both pertussis disease and DPT and DtaP pertussis vaccines, and is also most responsible for stimulating an immune response. The acellular pertussis vaccines, which were developed and tested in the late 1980's and early 1990's, do not include the mutated strain. Another reason why whooping cough cannot be entirely eradicated is the fact that there's another Bordetella organism – parapertussis – that can also cause whooping cough. The symptoms of B. parapertussis, while often milder, can look exactly like B. pertussis, but doctors rarely recognize or test for parapertussis. And, there is NO vaccine for it.

 

One difference between recovering from B. pertussis whooping cough and getting the vaccine is that recovery from whooping cough confers a naturally-acquired immunity that is stronger and longer lasting than the artificial immunity induced by the vaccine. Vaccination requires more and more booster doses to try to extend the artificial vaccine immunity.

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/17/pertussis-vaccine-for-whooping-cough-effects.aspx?e_cid=20120422_SNL_MS_1

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:50 PM
 
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So Kathy what do you think?

About what?

 

Pertussis is not fun for anyone, and dangerous to infants.  The vaccine is not highly effective, and the babe will be 4 months old before effectiveness even starts, and we do not know the effectiveness rate after the 2nd and 3rd shot.

 

I actually think stats on pertussis are particularly troublesome.  Anecdotally, I have met two people who insist they had pertussis but the doctor said they just had bad coughs (despite their whooping - and no tests were run).   Vaccines existed so therefore no one could get pertussis (mild snark).

 

Weren't some of the infants that died of pertussis in California initially misdiagnosed?

 

I also think the flip side is true - sometimes pertussis is overdiagnosed.  Here is an article on over-diagnosisng, and the difficulties of laboratory diagnosis.   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC120629/

 

I did not vaccinate 2 of my 3 children.  If there was a severe outbreak of pertussis that co-incided with a newborn period, I would cocoon (check my titres, and vax myself if necessary)  and the babe would stay close to home.  I am blessed that I can do this.  

 

If the baby had to go to daycare or ride public transport, etc, I would try to get real clear on how dangerous the period from 4-12 months is for pertussis, and if it is more dangerous than I can bear, I would vaccinate.  

 

I would also breastfeed and look into ascorbic acid.  

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:53 PM
 
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I am also not being inflammatory on purpose, but I want to say that just like I personally dislike when vehement pro-vaxxers come on here with their fingers in their ears and just post things like "wake up people, your kids are in danger because you are all stupid and only get your facts from Jenny McCarthy" or something like that, I am getting a bit exasperated by LouisW's posts.  They seem very reactionary and full of rage and "I know what's right" sentiment.  I say this as a Non-vaxxer myself, that I don't think these posts are really helping on the boards.

 

PS...I live on land in the country.  My kid plays in the dirt and helps me garden.  I don't vaccinate (at this time), My kid eats almost all organic and fresh whole foods, we spend tons of time in nature.  (I do not let her drink commerical raw milk (though I would if I had my own cow) , and I don't homeschool, my DD is too young yet, and she is going to a Waldorf preschool next year, but that's beside the point.)  Anyway, my point is that I do NOT think my kid is the healthiest and smartest kid in America.  She is healthy and smart,  but so are her friends, many of them are not living in this "idealistic way" you randomly mention.  I make decisions for my family based on what I feel is right for us, but I would never ever try to put my child on a high pedestal over other children and make that claim.

 

So please, anyone who reads this now, or in the future, please do not think that all non-vaxxers are on some high and mighty head trip and we think our kids are somehow superior because we made this choice. 


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Old 06-06-2012, 06:59 PM
 
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I did not vaccinate 2 of my 3 children.  If there was a severe outbreak of pertussis that co-incided with a newborn period, I would cocoon (check my titres, and vax myself if necessary)  and the babe would stay close to home.  I am blessed that I can do this.  If I had to work and the babe had to go to daycare, ride public transport, etc…I would vaccinate the baby in the event of a severe outbreak.  1/100 is too scary for me.

Even though as I mentioned the stat is not 1/100 in this day and age, there is still enough morbidity and mortality associated with infantile pertussis that I totally agree with Kathy.  I did not vaccinate my toddler and will not be vaccinating my newborn (coming in a few months) but that is because I will be cocooning (modified) and will be able to do so.  If I had to put her in daycare, or I lived in a large urban area, or had other risk factors for pertussis exposure, I truly feel that in this case the risks of the vax would not outweigh the benefits and I would do the vaccine, flawed as it may be.  I am privileged that I am able to feel comfortable with the decision (and what I see to be a reasonably low risk for our family) to not vaccinate a newborn for pertussis during an epidemic.


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Old 06-06-2012, 07:05 PM
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"Of all the vaccines which have been routinely used by children in the past century, the brain damaging effects of the pertussis (whooping cough) portion of DPT vaccine is among the most well documented in the scientific literature.Created in 1912, the crude pertussis vaccine basically consisted of B. pertussis bacteria killed with heat, preserved with formaldehyde, and injected into children. In the early 1940's, aluminum was added as an adjuvant and later the mercury preservative, thimerosal, was added when pertussis was combined with diphtheria and tetanus vaccines to create DPT. Pertussis vaccine was never studied in large clinical trials before being given to children in the first half of the 20th century or after it was combined into DPT and recommended for mass use by the American Academy of Pediatrics in 1947."  Barbara Loe Fisher

 

The wonderful "Pertussis Vaccine"

 

It is documented as brain damaging

 

It is strongly immunosupressive

 

It spreads pertussis

 

It shifts pertussis from healthy people who can effectively fight it to babies who cannot

 

It has never been clinically tested

 

It has been combined into a toxic "vaccine" soup so it cannot be effectively examined (as if anyone would)

 

About 85% of those who catch pertussis have received the "pertussis vaccine"

 

So please tell me again, why are we injecting this poison into our precious flesh and blood?

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Old 06-06-2012, 07:08 PM
 
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Rachel you are forgetting the "pertussis vaccine" the mother got did not confer long term immunity from pertussis on her it kept her from contracting the wild pertussis and thus developing immunity to pertussis. What ever "immunity" the mother got was GONE in less than five years. She had NOTHING to pass on.

 

The brother had the pertussis vaccine which he delivered to his baby sister. Most "vaccines" give you a weak form of the disease. Baby sis could not fight it.


I can't believe I am taking the "pro vax" stance here but as per the CDC MMWR (And I do believe in many things the CDC says as credible, public health based and not in the interest of the individual, true, but credible) natural immunity from having wild pertussis and passive immunity from vaccination for pertussis wear off in the same amount of time.  It is not life long such as other natural immunity is (for example parvovirus, rubella, etc.)  There is not a "one size fits all' approach to disease, each disease needs to be looked at individually.  For a disease like chicken pox, yes, I would take natural immunity over passive any day.  But with pertussis it seems like our immunity slowly wears off over time no matter if it is passive or actively gotten.  And (hold on to your hats) for some diseases (like tetanus) the passive immunity from the vaccine (good for about 10 years) is actually preferable to getting a case of tetanus, which offers one no ongoing immunity afterwards.  And if anyone is interested, I also researched why this is the case for the tetanus vaccine, but I think it's not really relevant to explain the whole thing here.


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Old 06-06-2012, 07:11 PM
 
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Louis, the DPT is not used in the USA anymore.  It gets on my nerves when people (not only you, but many, many anti-vaxxers) quote all these stats from the DPT vaccine and somehow think it transfers to the DTaP.

 

No-one denies that the DPT was very, very reactive.  That is why the powers that be reluctantly changed it for the (less effective but much less reactive) DTaP.


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So please tell me again, why are we injecting this poison into our precious flesh and blood?

 

The "pertussis vaccine" is extremely immunosupressive; it brings down your immune system. Our wonderful "health authorities" are recommending we get close to a dozen doses over our lifetimes.  The "pertussis vaccine" was developed just before WWI and the famous Pandemic of 1918 where immunosupression was a BIG issue. They have plans for a LOT more of this poison going into your body.

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Old 06-06-2012, 07:39 PM
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No-one denies that the DPT was very, very reactive.  That is why the powers that be reluctantly changed it for the (less effective but much less reactive) DTaP.

 

So what does the P in DTaP stand for if I may ask.

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Old 06-06-2012, 07:46 PM
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But with pertussis it seems like our immunity slowly wears off over time no matter if it is passive or actively gotten.

 

There is NO long term  immunity from the "pertussis vaccine". There are antibodies which help to some extent in fighting pertussis short term but these antibodies are GONE in three years.

 

Why do we get "booster shot" after "booster shot" of one of the worst immunosupressive garbages on the MARKET..

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pertussis...


drowning in hormones with 4 daughters and an understanding, loving hubby. also some dogs. my life is crazy and we are always learning.

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Are you seriously questioning my intelligence?  I think you know this, if not, I am very, very worried about your website/credibility. 

 

DTP=contained whole cell pertussis (very reactive, caused many neurological side effects in children)

 

DTaP=contains acellular pertussis ( A non whole cell formulation of pertussis, broken cell walls, much less reactive, much less effective as far as immunity)

 

*NOT THE SAME THING*


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There is NO long term  immunity from the "pertussis vaccine". There are antibodies which help to some extent in fighting pertussis short term but these antibodies are GONE in three years.

 

Why do we get "booster shot" after "booster shot" of one of the worst immunosupressive garbage on the MARKET..


Yes, we at last agree on something.  3 years is what it seems like for each dose of DTaP or Tdap to last (for the pertussis component).  For natural immunity to pertussis it is about 5-10 years, which was the same as the old whole cell pertussis form (DTP) that is no longer used in the USA.


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