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#31 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 09:07 AM
 
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I've become more comfortable with my decision not to give my otherwise-fully-vaxxed daughters their booster shots.  

 

The doctor's office has been very supportive, at least this doesn't seem to be a hot-button issue for them, and for that I am thankful.  I have been sweating over this, thinking and rethinking, and I look at the form I am to initial for the vaxxes I am refusing, and all the shots that were due to catch her up were ones that I don't worry about anyhow.  She was not due for another booster of DTaP until 11 (though that might change in the wake of the WA state outbreaks), meningitis not until 11.  I felt a bit silly for having worried about this.

 

I sorely wish I could rewind the clock and been more selective about the vaxxes we chose when the girls were infants.  While I don't think I would have been entirely non-vax, I find I have more in common with non-vaxxers than not (vax-skeptical, I guess).

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#32 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 09:23 AM
 
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I'm kind of unschooly myself, and perhaps that feeds this general concept I have about vaccines...When DD is at a point of having offspring or is at a place of being able to decide her own medical moves...I will leave the door open to her to make her own health care decisions (even if this means she makes a well-informed decision to have a vax). Since that's another 10 years, perhaps there will be even more data to consider. I'm all about more data to consider.

hey Sweetsilver……another thread for another time, perhaps?  I think Pek is an USer as well.  

 

While I know many non-vaxxers are not USers, I wonder if many USers are non-vaxxers or at least delayed (until the child can decide)?  There is a strong belief in USing that it is their bodies, their interests, their life…it is hard to reconcile giving or making a child, particularly an older one, have a non-essential vaccine with USing.  


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#33 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 09:34 AM
 
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I'm kind of unschooly myself, and perhaps that feeds this general concept I have about vaccines...When DD is at a point of having offspring or is at a place of being able to decide her own medical moves...I will leave the door open to her to make her own health care decisions (even if this means she makes a well-informed decision to have a vax). Since that's another 10 years, perhaps there will be even more data to consider. I'm all about more data to consider.

hey Sweetsilver……another thread for another time, perhaps?  I think Pek is an USer as well.  

 

While I know many non-vaxxers are not USers, I wonder if many USers are non-vaxxers or at least delayed (until the child can decide)?  There is a strong belief in USing that it is their bodies, their interests, their life…it is hard to reconcile giving or making a child, particularly an older one, have a non-essential vaccine with USing.  

Good morning, kathy!  That wasn't my quote, but I would agree that it would be an interesting thread.......


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#34 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 09:54 AM
 
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I agree with this. Part of me is really frustrated at this "can't see the forest for the trees" thinking of those in public health. Okay, so the end goal is to supposedly eradicate the deadly chickenpox. In the meantime, they've left those of us in our 30s, 40s, and 50s wide open for shingles because of a lack of circulating varicella to maintain our immunity. And we're too young for a shingles vax. I guess we have to take one for the team, right? Two of my SILs have had shingles already. In their 40s! What was an illness of the elderly is becoming something for the 30 and 40 something crowd instead. One was quite ill and off work for months. 

 

You see, the whole "your choices affect my life" that gets tossed around goes both ways. As a result of vaccination, we have shifting epidemiology and serotype replacement. This affects my family.

 

In re:  "deadly chickenpox", the material I have seen from public health authorities on the CP vax is that one of the things they are specifically trying to do is eliminate chicken pox as an economic burden for parents.  Because of the amount of time that a child with CP can't be in group care, chicken pox is a disease that parents sometimes lose their jobs over.  Eliminating CP helps reduce childhood poverty.  It is my understanding that that's why it's on the vaccination schedule.  (Better family leave and health care policies in the U.S. would do even more to reduce childhood poverty.  I'd love to see more of those.)

 

In regards to shingles - shingles is a recrudescence of chicken pox that remains dormant in the body after initial infection.  If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  A more widely applicable shingles vaccine would be a help here, but I'm not at all sure that increasing the exposure to CP virus in the general population would cut down on cases of shingles in adults.  The opposite seems highly possible.

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#35 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 10:14 AM
 
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The above is a graph of what they expect to happen to shingles in the next 65 years.  Note the upswing due to CP vaccination, and the 60 years or so it will take to return to "without vaccination" levels.   http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X03008776

 

 

And 5, 10 and 15 years post lincesure in different age groups.

 

_______________________

 

Meepycat, I am sure you understand that using one vaccine to fix the issues another vaccine created is galling.  Some people may choose to do it anyways to avoid the pain of shingles, but people can still be ticked off that promoting CP vaccination for convenience (when it really should be a medical decision) has led to other medical issues. 

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#36 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 10:19 AM
 
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In re:  "deadly chickenpox", the material I have seen from public health authorities on the CP vax is that one of the things they are specifically trying to do is eliminate chicken pox as an economic burden for parents.  Because of the amount of time that a child with CP can't be in group care, chicken pox is a disease that parents sometimes lose their jobs over.  Eliminating CP helps reduce childhood poverty.  It is my understanding that that's why it's on the vaccination schedule.  (Better family leave and health care policies in the U.S. would do even more to reduce childhood poverty.  I'd love to see more of those.)

 

In regards to shingles - shingles is a recrudescence of chicken pox that remains dormant in the body after initial infection.  If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  A more widely applicable shingles vaccine would be a help here, but I'm not at all sure that increasing the exposure to CP virus in the general population would cut down on cases of shingles in adults.  The opposite seems highly possible.

I'm referring to those people that have had the wild virus only. If one had had the wild CP like I did, periodic exposure to wild cp acts as a natural booster and would absolutely cut down on cases of shingles as an adult. The fact that wild CP is not circulating like it used to is one of the reasons shingles is being seen in younger people.

 

As for the CP vaccine being created to ease the economic burden on parents who work, I was aware of that and IMO that is the most ridiculous reason to make a vaccine mandatory or add it to the schedule. That is not a concern for me. I would much rather take 2 weeks to care for my child at home. I would not loose my job. I understand this may be of concern for other parents so they should be able to choose that vaccine for that reason if they wish to, but to apply it across the board is unneccesary. 

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#37 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 11:48 AM
 
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I was kind of surprised about this--the CP vax came out and was touted as "great for the working parent!" but most peds were like, "uh, whatever..CP is really no biggie". But then, a few years have gone by and it's like "your child will die from CP if you don't get this vax". I'm curious as to how the jump occurred! How did the fear spread so fast?

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#38 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 12:18 PM
 
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I was kind of surprised about this--the CP vax came out and was touted as "great for the working parent!" but most peds were like, "uh, whatever..CP is really no biggie". But then, a few years have gone by and it's like "your child will die from CP if you don't get this vax". I'm curious as to how the jump occurred! How did the fear spread so fast?

maybe it had to do with when it became a school requirement? I know the vaccine was licensed in 1995 but not recommended for school entry until 1999. 

 

It just seems like whatever is "mandatory" for school is what gets cited as being a deadly disease. 


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#39 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 12:39 PM
 
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In re:  "deadly chickenpox", the material I have seen from public health authorities on the CP vax is that one of the things they are specifically trying to do is eliminate chicken pox as an economic burden for parents.  Because of the amount of time that a child with CP can't be in group care, chicken pox is a disease that parents sometimes lose their jobs over.  Eliminating CP helps reduce childhood poverty.  It is my understanding that that's why it's on the vaccination schedule.  (Better family leave and health care policies in the U.S. would do even more to reduce childhood poverty.  I'd love to see more of those.)

 

In regards to shingles - shingles is a recrudescence of chicken pox that remains dormant in the body after initial infection.  If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  A more widely applicable shingles vaccine would be a help here, but I'm not at all sure that increasing the exposure to CP virus in the general population would cut down on cases of shingles in adults.  The opposite seems highly possible.

The week or two that a parent has to take off of work to care for a child with chicken pox is certainly significant in the US, where there is no mandated paid parental leave, and the federally mandated family leave is unpaid, and also not available to those who are self-employed.

 

However, that week or two is NOTHING compared with the cost and time involved in caring for a child who has suffered a serious reaction to a vaccine.  That risk increases when shots are administered together--which is what is currently done.

 

It's great that the public health authorities want to spare parents the inconvenience and financial burden of caring for a child with chicken pox, but they are being extremely short-sighted in not realizing that the cost  (in terms of severe vaccine reactions) is actually too high.

 

I've met plenty of parents whose children had severe vaccine reactions.  Not ONE of them feels that their child's reaction is an acceptable sacrifice to 
"protect the herd."  NOT ONE.

 

And that's not even considering the possibility that herd immunity is not nearly what it's cracked up to be.  That's assuming that herd immunity works (which it clearly doesn't, in the case of pertussis).

 

Oh, and you can get shingles even if you've never had chicken pox and are fully vaccinated for chicken pox. In fact, the number of children developing shingles has skyrocketed since the introduction of the chicken pox vaccine, and some experts believe that the chicken pox vaccine makes shingles more likely rather than less.

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#40 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 12:51 PM
 
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I was kind of surprised about this--the CP vax came out and was touted as "great for the working parent!" but most peds were like, "uh, whatever..CP is really no biggie". But then, a few years have gone by and it's like "your child will die from CP if you don't get this vax". I'm curious as to how the jump occurred! How did the fear spread so fast?

regardless of the debate regarding vaccine necessity or safety, we can all agree that vaccinations are an industry that produce big bucks. IMO, the propaganda that chicken pox will save your child from death and deformity, etc. is the platform that sells it.  

 

my daughter is 11 & has never been vaxed for CP and has never had it. i had been struggling if i should get her the vaccine when she's 12 or not.  as i began to research more and more about that decision for her, i am convinced now even more than before that we will continue to not vax here. 


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#41 of 52 Old 12-31-2012, 01:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 View Post

I was kind of surprised about this--the CP vax came out and was touted as "great for the working parent!" but most peds were like, "uh, whatever..CP is really no biggie". But then, a few years have gone by and it's like "your child will die from CP if you don't get this vax". I'm curious as to how the jump occurred! How did the fear spread so fast?

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regardless of the debate regarding vaccine necessity or safety, we can all agree that vaccinations are an industry that produce big bucks. IMO, the propaganda that chicken pox will save your child from death and deformity, etc. is the platform that sells it.  

 

my daughter is 11 & has never been vaxed for CP and has never had it. i had been struggling if i should get her the vaccine when she's 12 or not.  as i began to research more and more about that decision for her, i am convinced now even more than before that we will continue to not vax here. 

i can agree with both of you on what you're saying...i remember as a daycare teacher back in the 80's we used to joke around about how some day there'd be a shot for CP, and how parents would come to see it as a deadly disease, and BAM!! here we are!!  Fearmongering, hype, and bullling sells vaccines... the chicken pox vaccine is proof right before my eyes.  It has taken 30yrs to come to real fruition, but nonetheless, it HAS happened.  

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#42 of 52 Old 01-01-2013, 10:49 AM
 
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I was raised in a religion that opposes vaccinations, so I was never vaccinated, and am now 61 y/o. I have traveled extensively in Europe, and even once to Malaysia, all without vaccinating.

My children, now in their mid-20s, were not vaccinated as children. I guess I'm posting this information to encourage anyone resisting vaccination that it is indeed possible to make it through life without vaccinations.

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#43 of 52 Old 01-01-2013, 11:12 AM
 
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Thank you Steele, and welcome to MDC. :-)


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Quoting MeepyCat - "In re:  "deadly chickenpox", the material I have seen from public health authorities on the CP vax is that one of the things they are specifically trying to do is eliminate chicken pox as an economic burden for parents.  Because of the amount of time that a child with CP can't be in group care, chicken pox is a disease that parents sometimes lose their jobs over.  Eliminating CP helps reduce childhood poverty.  It is my understanding that that's why it's on the vaccination schedule.  (Better family leave and health care policies in the U.S. would do even more to reduce childhood poverty.  I'd love to see more of those.)

In regards to shingles - shingles is a recrudescence of chicken pox that remains dormant in the body after initial infection.  If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  A more widely applicable shingles vaccine would be a help here, but I'm not at all sure that increasing the exposure to CP virus in the general population would cut down on cases of shingles in adults.  The opposite seems highly possible."


I agree that the US needs better family leave/health care policies. I am very fortunate to be a SAHM, so I won't be in the position to worry about losing employment.

But here is another thought: as the CP vax was designed to decrease economic burden for parents, the actual results now (and in the future) are (and arguably will be) much different. If it's a burden for parents to take off a week (or even two) to nurse their child through CP, then how is the parents' economic burden reduced if the parents need AT LEAST that amount of time off (and may suffer longer and/or more than a child going through the typical course of wild CP infection) to recover from Shingles because they didn't get a natural booster from their kids' infection . I can imagine THAT could lead to (a) parent(s) losing employment, thereby negating the intended "benefit".

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#45 of 52 Old 01-01-2013, 12:46 PM
 
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But here is another thought: as the CP vax was designed to decrease economic burden for parents, the actual results now (and in the future) are (and arguably will be) much different. If it's a burden for parents to take off a week (or even two) to nurse their child through CP, then how is the parents' economic burden reduced if the parents need AT LEAST that amount of time off (and may suffer longer and/or more than a child going through the typical course of wild CP infection) to recover from Shingles because they didn't get a natural booster from their kids' infection . I can imagine THAT could lead to (a) parent(s) losing employment, thereby negating the intended "benefit".

Good point

 

It should be noted that the shingles vaccine is often only available for those over 60 and is not highly effective (it reduced the likelihood of getting shingles by about 50%, less for much older adults  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/shingles/hcp-vaccination.htm)


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#46 of 52 Old 01-01-2013, 12:51 PM
 
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But here is another thought: as the CP vax was designed to decrease economic burden for parents, the actual results now (and in the future) are (and arguably will be) much different. If it's a burden for parents to take off a week (or even two) to nurse their child through CP, then how is the parents' economic burden reduced if the parents need AT LEAST that amount of time off (and may suffer longer and/or more than a child going through the typical course of wild CP infection) to recover from Shingles because they didn't get a natural booster from their kids' infection . I can imagine THAT could lead to (a) parent(s) losing employment, thereby negating the intended "benefit".

 

I didn't even think about that. Good point! 


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#47 of 52 Old 01-01-2013, 04:33 PM
 
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But here is another thought: as the CP vax was designed to decrease economic burden for parents, the actual results now (and in the future) are (and arguably will be) much different. If it's a burden for parents to take off a week (or even two) to nurse their child through CP, then how is the parents' economic burden reduced if the parents need AT LEAST that amount of time off (and may suffer longer and/or more than a child going through the typical course of wild CP infection) to recover from Shingles because they didn't get a natural booster from their kids' infection . I can imagine THAT could lead to (a) parent(s) losing employment, thereby negating the intended "benefit".

 

Agree. My SIL was off work for weeks because her episode of shingles was severe enough that she just couldn't go in. IMO she was off for longer that she probably would have been looking after one of her kids with CP.


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#48 of 52 Old 01-01-2013, 04:41 PM
 
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…or because the parent themselves has shingles partly due to a decrease in the amount of wild CP floating around.

It should be noted that the shingles vaccine is often only available for those over 60 and is not highly effective (it reduced the likelihood of getting shingles by about 50%, less for much older adults  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/shingles/hcp-vaccination.htm)

I've had a few pretty young friends (re:42 years old or YOUNGER) who have been diagnosed with Shingles, one of which spent about 3 days in the hospital on an IV. Knock on wood for me so far (with regard to getting Shingles). I think I've told this story before - my DD was one of two/the only student(s) out of 24 in her elementary school class *NOT* to come down with CP (she had one CP vax before I stopped). I hope that her exposure to this (without showing signs of an infection?) helped to boost her immunity, as surely as I hope the fact that I spent some time in the class helped me too! I'd like to avoid getting Shingles (for the rest of my life, not just for the 16 years until I hit the "golden" age of 60, which would make me "eligible for the vaccine, which I will NOT be getting. Ever.).

ETA: Need to add the word *friends* :-)

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#49 of 52 Old 01-01-2013, 07:58 PM
 
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My sister got shingles when she was pregnant (she was in her thirties).

 

She had just started taking vitamin C according to Dr. Klenner's protocol for pregnant women,  so she only got mild itching on her back (but that didn't keep her doctor from pushing meds on her for it; I guess he had trouble believing she was practically symptom-free?).

 

That experience sure made HER a believer in vitamin C's powers!


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This stuff about chickenpox and working parents is interesting. When ds1 was little, he got chickenpox. I was a WOHM, who didn't get paid sick days. I went to work while he was sick. My child care was in my home, which does make me luckier than most, but I knew other parents who made various arrangements to deal with this. It sucks - no way around it, but the chickenpox really weren't a big deal in his life, or mine - lots of time spent on comforting him, but that was about it. (He and my nephew each have one very tiny pock mark - ds1's is at the edge of his eyebrow, and my nephew's is on his nose.)

 

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do about chickenpox. I've read quite a bit about it, but still can't decide which way to go. I tried exposing dd1 and ds2 to wild pox, but they never caught. DD1 is now 9, and ds2 is 7. I do have concerns about them getting chickenpox when they're older, which lead me in the "I should vaccinate" direction (the same reason I will probably vax ds2 for mumps in the fairly near future - the risk of getting it after puberty and possibly being rendered sterile freaks me out).

 

I find some of the talk about the diseases themselves a little over the top. I had measles. I had mumps. I had chickenpox. They really weren't that big a deal (esp. chickenpox!). I know some people do experience serious complications, but they're not generally a huge issue, imo and ime. (Okay - I lie. My measles were kind of a hassle, but only because they struck while we were several hundred miles from home, on a camping trip. My mom didn't find nursing a measles patient in a tent to be a barrel of laughs.) About 1/3 of my school was out with measles when I was 15, and that wasn't a big deal, either, except for being horribly disruptive to our school schedules.


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#51 of 52 Old 01-02-2013, 01:08 PM
 
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If you never get CP, you can't get shingles either.  

Unfortunately, this is a common misperception.

 

if you never get CP, but get the CP vaccine, you can get shingles, as the CP vaccine is a live-virus vaccine, and the virus will go dormant in a spinal nerve just as if you've had CP.  In fact, you might be MORE likely to get shingles if you've had the vaccine:  http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/01/12896.aspx (Chicken Pox Vaccine Associated With Shingles Epidemic).

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#52 of 52 Old 01-02-2013, 01:36 PM
 
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My parents could have taken sick time when my sister and I had chickenpox as kids, but they didn't.  It was summer so we didn't miss school, and our grandparents alternated watching us in the summer so we had someone in the house (I was maybe 8, my sister was 6). I do remember my mother taking us to the town pool and having us wear a t-shirt over our bathing suit so the spots were less visible.  I can only imagine trying to take a kid out to a public place like that today!

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