The German vaxed vs unvaxed "study" - Unvaccinated Children Suffer Fewer Infectious Diseases - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 27 Old 03-13-2013, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I beleive this is the study that our vocal pro-vaxers like to show off as proof that vaccinate children are just as healthy as unvaccinated.

 

http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2013-03-13/unvaccinated-children-suffer-fewer-infectious-diseases-study/

 

 

 

 

Quote:

The study found:

  • Vaccinated children aged 1-5 had 27% more infectious disease than unvaccinated children.
  • Vaccinated children aged  11-17 had 16% more infectious disease than unvaccinated children.

The conclusion, though, doesn’t even mention this!

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#2 of 27 Old 03-13-2013, 05:34 PM
 
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not trying to change the subject (I did try and bring this up in the "other" section) - I don't know how many have seen this - and depending on where you see it - you see a different take! go figure love.gif this seems to show NO! there is a difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

A Population-Based Cohort Study of Undervaccination in 8 Managed Care Organizations Across the United States  

 

Under and Unvaced are healthier (to some!)

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/jama-study-kids-with-fewer-vaccines-have-fewer-doctor-and-emergency-room-visits/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130121161921.htm

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/01/study-finds-infants-toddlers-on-slower-vaccine-schedule-have-fewer-outpatient-and-er-visits.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e2017d4070ba3d970c

 

it's on other blogs too

 

 

I would have like to seen a longer study and I do know (personally) we have insurance via my DH and his company (they are a fortune 500 & international) and within the past 15 years we have had (no say here) to change insurance so many times - just within the past 5 years (since our DS was born) it has changed 3 times - so for most people (knowing this is happening with others as well) just getting your group to study is hard - YET let's remember what the other sides is saying - "managed care" so much info there! I don't seem them talking about this outcome! 

 

I do have a real problem with how it was "studied" - as I had posted -  For inclusion, each child had to be continuously enrolled in their MCO from at least ages 2 to 12 months. Children were followed up for a maximum of 36 months, and follow-up stopped if a child’s enrollment in his or her MCO was discontinued…To help ensure that children were receiving primary care services within their MCO, they also had to have at least 1 outpatient visit by age 12 months.

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#3 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 09:52 AM
 
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prosciencmum are you now not in the other camp~did you see the light?  thumb.gif

 

 

Did you switch side or just choose to ignore the Support only: If you're not vaccinating or seriously considering not vaccinating, this is your forum. This forum will host topics that are about dealing with issues when choosing to not vaccinate.

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#4 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 11:02 AM
 
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I'm sure PSM is aware of the posting guidelines for this forum. Aren't you PSM?

 

I think she just wanted to make sure that we no vaxers are getting the "right" information/interpretation of a particular study. 

 

With that said, while I admit I read the posts in the mindful vax forum - I refrain from posting any replies.

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#5 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 11:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

I'm sure PSM is aware of the posting guidelines for this forum. Aren't you PSM?

 

I think she just wanted to make sure that we no vaxers are getting the "right" information/interpretation of a particular study. 

 

With that said, while I admit I read the posts in the mindful vax forum - I refrain from posting any replies.

 

I appreciate that... nothing bugs me more than receiving slanted information no matter what the topic and whether I agree or not. (I don't mean the OP, just in general)

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#6 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Escaping View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

I'm sure PSM is aware of the posting guidelines for this forum. Aren't you PSM?

 

I think she just wanted to make sure that we no vaxers are getting the "right" information/interpretation of a particular study. 

 

With that said, while I admit I read the posts in the mindful vax forum - I refrain from posting any replies.

 

I appreciate that... nothing bugs me more than receiving slanted information no matter what the topic and whether I agree or not. (I don't mean the OP, just in general)

I am sorry, but this is the I'm not vaccinating forum. Non vaxers aren't allowed challenge pro vax opinions on the Mindful Vaccination forum, they get deleted PDQ, so I hope this forum will be treated in the same way.


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#7 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:06 PM
 
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But if I'm thinking of not vaccinating my child, I'd appreciate accurate information. 

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#8 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:
But if I'm thinking of not vaccinating my child, I'd appreciate accurate information. 

you have the debate section if you want it - post it there if you want 

 

I'm thinking of vaccinating, should I post in the other section? I saw a "correction" that should be made-would you like that  (it is in the mindful section)?


 

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#9 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:20 PM
 
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I haven't caught up with all the posts, here, but would like to mention that the *only* time my son was ill for more than a couple of days was when he was being vaxed. When I quit authorizing them, his health improved dramatically!
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#10 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:21 PM
 
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I wasn't looking for a debate, I like to read this section for my own information. I'd like some reassurance that the information posted here is true and accurate. 

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#11 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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Ok here's the thing.

 

I can appreciate the desire for accurate information Escaping. However I think it is important for whoever posts here to keep in mind where they are. I also think you missed the sarcasm in my response because we are all aware of PSM's point of view and she is not considering vaccinating her child so this really is not a forum that she should be participating in. As a no vaxer that participates on the debate thread, I think many of us here, when we KNOW the poster is staunchly provax, will question the motives of the post. Is it really that PSM wants us to have accurate information? or is she more interested in pointing out that we are wrong? 


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#12 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Escaping View Post

I wasn't looking for a debate, I like to read this section for my own information. I'd like some reassurance that the information posted here is true and accurate. 

Information and studies can be interpreted through multiple lenses and different conclusions can be drawn. That is also important to keep in mind. I think what may have been more helpful is to just post the original study and then we can all go read it for ourselves :)


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#13 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:25 PM
 
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I believe I can make a factual correction on this board. The actual study is here for reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/

 

I quote the relevent section with number below (PS. I corrected what must be a typo in one of the CI - you can see it off the graph): 

 

 

 

 

 

My correction is that the figures should actually be quoted with errors. Using the language from the Gaia blog article Mirzam links they would be: 

 

 

  • Vaccinated children aged 1-5 had 27% more (CI twice as much to 6% less) infectious disease than unvaccinated children.
  • Vaccinated children aged  11-17 had 16% more (CI twice as much to 25% less) infectious disease than unvaccinated children.

The authors explain why it's not in the conclusions - it's not statistically significant: 

 

Isn't it interesting that it's not "statistically significant" when vaccines have a negative outcome of 27%, but when a vaccine or even a medication has even less of a "statistically significant" outcome (like the flu shot in elderly people having only 9% efficacy), the vaccine is still trumpeted as being effective, and is aggressively marketed and even mandated?

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#14 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:39 PM
 
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Ok here's the thing.

 

I can appreciate the desire for accurate information Escaping. However I think it is important for whoever posts here to keep in mind where they are. I also think you missed the sarcasm in my response because we are all aware of PSM's point of view and she is not considering vaccinating her child so this really is not a forum that she should be participating in. As a no vaxer that participates on the debate thread, I think many of us here, when we KNOW the poster is staunchly provax, will question the motives of the post. Is it really that PSM wants us to have accurate information? or is she more interested in pointing out that we are wrong? 

I got it!

 

 

 

Quote:
I wasn't looking for a debate, I like to read this section for my own information. I'd like some reassurance that the information posted here is true and accurate. 

again, would like us (those who also are not looking for debate) to post in the other section? You have the debate section if you want a CROSS section of posts.

 

If you are concerned about true and accurate why wouldn't you want from all not just those who are not/delayed, etc? 


 

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#15 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 01:44 PM
 
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I read from both groups. Sorry, won't post here again.

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#16 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 04:00 PM
 
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Here are the forum guidelines: http://www.mothering.com/community/a/vaccination-forum-guidelines

 

To paraphrase, the support forums (MV & INV) are specifically for members making or seriously considering those options so they can share information with like-minded members. Of course, those members are welcome to discuss stats and sources. Members considering either support sub-forum are welcome to post to ask for information and question what is being discussed. However, once a member has settled into one ideology they should refrain from posting in the other support forum. Escaping, if you are seriously considering not vaccinating, you are welcome to post here. 

 

Members repeatedly and knowingly posting in the wrong forum will have posting privileges removed. 

 

I have removed one post from this thread. Thanks for the heads up, ICM 


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#17 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 07:28 PM
 
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Isn't it interesting that it's not "statistically significant" when vaccines have a negative outcome of 27%, but when a vaccine or even a medication has even less of a "statistically significant" outcome (like the flu shot in elderly people having only 9% efficacy), the vaccine is still trumpeted as being effective, and is aggressively marketed and even mandated?

The number of unvaxxed kids in the German study was very small.

 

I think it is interesting that the unvaxxed having a higher incidence of VAD in the study is trumpeted, however when the data seems to favour not vaxxing, it is suddenly "statistically insignificant."

 

The original study:

http://data.aerzteblatt.org/pdf/DI/108/7/m99.pdf

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#18 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 08:03 PM
 
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Another thing I found odd was how they determined VAD.

 

Here is a quote from the study:

 

 

"Lifetime prevalence calculations for pertussis, measles, mumps, and rubella were based on the question: “Has your child ever had ... ?” 

 

2 points:

 

1:  They are calculating lifetime risk as opposed to actual cases.  I find that kind of assumptive.  

 

2.   Parental reports are not always great indicators for disease - particualrly pertussis (which, depending on the age of the child, can come across as a nasty and long-lived cough) and rubella - which is so mild is often goes unnoticed!  Parents of unvaccinated children might know a bit more about what these diseases look like (and thus recognise rubella where a vaxxing parent might not) moreover, those who vaccinate may believe their child could not possibly get a VAD, thus skewing the vaxxing statistics downwards.  

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#19 of 27 Old 03-14-2013, 08:14 PM
 
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#20 of 27 Old 03-16-2013, 06:08 PM
 
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Yeah, but their kids might get free ipods!  I would rather have an ipod than a cookie, i think.
 

(if you are unaware, this is what i was referencing: http://www.naturalnews.com/032330_vaccines_iPod.html) and i believe it happened in california as well.

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#21 of 27 Old 03-16-2013, 06:18 PM
 
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and I make organic cookies


 

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#22 of 27 Old 03-17-2013, 05:15 AM
 
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There seems to be some attempts at humor that I don't understand but let me remind everyone that the INV forum is a support-only forum for those making the decision to not vaccinate. It is NOT intended to be a safe-haven for making fun of other members or other choices about vaccination. Especially, considering that they are not welcome to post a response. If any of these posts are intended to be a dig on another member, their posts on another thread, or anything of that nature, they will need to be edited. If you have a PM from me you will need to edit before continuing to post. 


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#23 of 27 Old 03-17-2013, 09:11 AM
 
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I guess I read this a little differently that you did , ICM.

 

Serenbat asked if PSM had changed sides.  I suspect it was in jest, but it could have been a real question.  If it was in jest, on a scale of of 1-5, with 5 being the most mean spirited, I give it a 1 or 1.5.  

 

I added that we have cookies over here.  It was not an inside joke or anything like that - just a fun way of saying, yes PSM - come join us - we have cookies over here.  (Not true, sadly, unless people are hiding cookies from me! )

 

I like to think that if I wandered over to mindful vax, and someone said "what are you doing here?  Come join us!  We have chocolate!"  that I would be able to accept it as playful ribbing and respond that I have better chocolate over on INV, or decline their offer of food graciously, or some such thing…..I also know that there is a somewhat adversarial  relationship between many on INV and MV, so maybe on some days I  would not have been able to shrug it off.  I hope I would have been able to.  

 

PSM, if you are reading, I hope your feelings were not hurt.  That was not my intent.  

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#24 of 27 Old 03-17-2013, 09:26 AM
 
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I guess I read this a little differently that you did , ICM.

 

Serenbat asked if PSM had changed sides.  I suspect it was in jest, but it could have been a real question.  If it was in jest, on a scale of of 1-5, with 5 being the most mean spirited, I give it a 1 or 1.5.  

 

I added that we have cookies over here.  It was not an inside joke or anything like that - just a fun way of saying, yes PSM - come join us - we have cookies over here.  (Not true, sadly, unless people are hiding cookies from me! )

  

That's exactly how I read those early posts, KM, and they are fine and do not need edits. A subsequent post went over the line, IMO, and that posts is what prompted me to post to the thread. That post has been edited and I thank the member who chose to do that. We're all good. And, thank you very much for your clarification and kind words. 


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#25 of 27 Old 03-17-2013, 01:47 PM
 
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I also think that a lot of things have to do with the outcome and not just the lack of vaccines. I think that parents that choose not to vaccinate generally tend to make healthier choices in general, like eating healthy, avoiding toxins, and exercising. These things all can account for the reduction in infection rates.


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#26 of 27 Old 03-17-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I also think that a lot of things have to do with the outcome and not just the lack of vaccines. I think that parents that choose not to vaccinate generally tend to make healthier choices in general, like eating healthy, avoiding toxins, and exercising. These things all can account for the reduction in infection rates.

As this is the INV forum, I would think that the majority of posters and readers here begin with assumption that vaccines can compromise health. Of course there are many factors involved the health of the individual child, but by far the most impact is likely to come from vaccines. Children, now get 49 to 51 vaccines during the first 6 years of life, that is a huge hit to the immune system.


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#27 of 27 Old 03-17-2013, 07:54 PM
 
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As this is the INV forum, I would think that the majority of posters and readers here begin with assumption that vaccines can compromise health. Of course there are many factors involved the health of the individual child, but by far the most impact is likely to come from vaccines. Children, now get 49 to 51 vaccines during the first 6 years of life, that is a huge hit to the immune system.

 

I dont vaccinate, but I also think I make a valid point regarding the "study".


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