Who should post in I'm Not Vaccinating and Mindful Vaccination? - Mothering Forums

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Old 03-22-2013, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I have been reviewing things with our moderators here so that we can redefine our approach to handling the grey areas of the two vax support subforums. Due to the fair amount of violations that we were seeing in the forum against the guidelines that were posted, we asked that members who are not vaccinating should not post to the Mindful Vaccination forum and members who are vaccinating - either partially, delayed or completely on schedule - should not post to I'm Not Vaccinating. This would certainly make things much easier for us in moderating but it is clashing with what we have stated in our guidelines and raised some issues for those who may need to post for support and help in both forums from time to time.

 

So, we'd like to once again clarify the guidelines for posting to the I'm Not Vaccinating and the Mindful Vaccination support forums and use this as our moderation basis:


I'm Not Vaccinating - This is a support-only forum for those not or those seriously considering not vaccinating. Here we host discussion of issues that arise when choosing to not vaccinate and sharing of resources and information that are related to the no-vax decision. Members who are vaccinating should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted. 

 

Mindful Vaccination -  This is a support-only forum for those who are vaccinating selectively, on a delayed schedule or fully vaccinating on schedule. Members who aren't vaccinating should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted. 

 

Basically this means that if you are undecided, you could post to either forum to get support you need that would best come from those who are either not vaccinating or who are selectively, delayed or fully vaccinating. If you are a parent who chooses to vaccinate then your posts to the I'm Not Vaccinating forum should only be in clear support appropriate for that forum. It should not be to argue, disagree, question, or debate opinions or information posted in that forum. If you post to support a member it should be in line with the forum's purpose and not to further promote your pro-vaccination views.

 

Likewise, if you are a parent who chooses to not vaccinate then your posts to the Mindful Vaccination forum should only be in clear support appropriate for that forum. It should not be to argue, disagree, question, or debate opinions or information posted in that forum. If you post to support a member it should be in line with the forum's purpose and not to further promote your anti-vaccination views. 

 

I hope this lays a clear foundation for everyone as posting members. If you have any questions feel free to ask. smile.gif


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Old 03-22-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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Clear. Thanks!


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Old 03-22-2013, 11:08 PM
 
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I have a question: I've avoided posting in MV although because I am considering some vaccines at my son's 2 yr visit coming up this spring, I guess I techincally could. I guess my confusion about the intent of that forum keeps me from joining in the conversations there. It claims to encompass the whole spectrum, from parents who vax on schedule to those who might choose only one vax, but how does the very hesitant, skeptical, and concerned parent who reluctantly opts to give one or two vaxxes fit in if the conversation must be 100% supportive of vaccines, 100% of the time? I ask because this is where I am right now, and because it seems that many parents who choose sel/del may feel similarly. Do we have to posting INV if we are concerned, saving MV only for "celebrations?"

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Old 03-23-2013, 04:38 AM
 
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I have a question: I've avoided posting in MV although because I am considering some vaccines at my son's 2 yr visit coming up this spring, I guess I techincally could. I guess my confusion about the intent of that forum keeps me from joining in the conversations there. It claims to encompass the whole spectrum, from parents who vax on schedule to those who might choose only one vax, but how does the very hesitant, skeptical, and concerned parent who reluctantly opts to give one or two vaxxes fit in if the conversation must be 100% supportive of vaccines, 100% of the time? I ask because this is where I am right now, and because it seems that many parents who choose sel/del may feel similarly. Do we have to posting INV if we are concerned, saving MV only for "celebrations?"

 

I just wanted to chime in and say that you're not the only one. I'm still considering the dT for my kids but I don't feel MV is a good fit for me because I would never agree to the majority of vaccines on the schedule. So, I suppose we can be our own subgroup of "very hesitant, concerned, skeptical, questioning, reluctant, not completely convinced, and concerned" parents. 

 

I think INV is a better fit for me, as I'd never celebrate my kids getting a vaccine anyway, considering how ambivalent I feel about the whole issue. If they made it through the series without any obvious debilitating reactions (knowing that yes, there could be delayed reactions), personally I'd be more like, "Oh thank you, thank you universe that everything is okay in this moment," not thinking, "Woot, that's done and dusted, I should get out my party hat now."


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Old 03-23-2013, 08:34 AM
 
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I'm one of those too - I select and delay and only do very, very little and honestly I feel quite welcome in INV. The advice found here was very and is very valuable to me. But I don't post here advocating doing what I do, I merely ask for advice. Many members here have experiences horrible side effects and their experience as well as abundant research really helps me along the way.

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Old 03-23-2013, 08:53 AM
 
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Another sel/del parent here (as in 2 vaccines so far). I feel better going into the INV section of the forum also. I read through them but don't join in on the conversation because I am still somewhat open-minded but skeptical and concerned. And every time DS gets a vaccine, I always always have extreme anxiety and pray that everything will go okay. No celebration here.
 


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Old 03-23-2013, 09:13 AM
 
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So it seems pretty clear that there is a problem with the way the forums are set up- sel/del folks are not comfortable in the forum that is supposed to encompass their choices. Not that they don't feel welcome enough in INV, but with the strict wording of the forum guidelines, technically, they're not- and that might keep some people from posting at all. Or force them into posting in d&d, where they may not get the kind of responses they seek.

Maybe the forum layout can be revisited, and the on schedule people can get their own niche? It seemed silly at the time, because frankly, it is puzzling that someone proudly following the mainstream would need enough "support" to warrant an online forum, but they are a vocal minority here and have succeeded in displacing concerned parents who would like to have a place to discuss the issues and fears that lead some to select minimal vaccines.

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Old 03-23-2013, 10:55 AM
 
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I belong to this camp as well - not sure and not convinced.  Ideally, the debate board would have been the most useful since it would help to see the different viewpoints.  Unfortunately, the "debates" tend to be dominated by very simplistic arguments and personal attacks - I've found them to be rather disappointing, to say the least.

 

One option would be to have a heavier moderation for the debate board.  Another would be to have a sub-forum where some of us can truly have respectful and honest discussions.   Having said that, I'm most comfortable at INV for now.


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Old 03-23-2013, 11:03 AM
 
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It seemed silly at the time, because frankly, it is puzzling that someone proudly following the mainstream would need enough "support" to warrant an online forum, but they are a vocal minority here and have succeeded in displacing concerned parents who would like to have a place to discuss the issues and fears that lead some to select minimal vaccines.

 

My understanding is they don't need support w.r.t to the community at large, but rather w.r.t to the natural/AP community.  They have been considered as not-AP-enough or not-natural-enough because of their decision to vax fully and on-schedule.


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Old 03-23-2013, 12:10 PM
 
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I agree that the forums are not meeting needs. INV is currently being used in a mindful vaccinating way, more than a strictly not vaccinating way.

I think a vaccinating forum should be created for those who are vaccinating on schedule with full confidence. Then mindful vaccinating can use their forum appropriately and the vaccine pushers shouldn't be allowed there. Then INV can be for those who are truly not vaccinating.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:42 PM
 
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And I'm not supposed to post on the Mindful Vaccination thread, even though my kids have probably had more vaccines than most of the vax pushers (even Rrrrrachel admits to skipping a few vaccines for her kids), and even though I'd posted a few times that I was having trouble figuring out what to do about the MMR for my youngest, as there are indications that skipping it entirely might be dangerous to her in adulthood, but that Merck's website shows that there are some pretty significant risks for adult women to have the vaccine.

 

And WHY am I not supposed to post on Mindful Vaccination (unless it's to offer support)?  

Because I've been vocal about the fact that my children have had severe reactions.

But it's mindful that parents post that they are CELEBRATING the fact that their kid got vaxxed?

 

Sure seems more like censorship than mindfulness to me.

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Old 03-23-2013, 12:54 PM
 
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There was ONE post that mentioned "celebrating" and it wasn't in the sense that you suggest Taxi. And let's be honest - if you no longer plan on vaxing its not a place you belong.
Jenny I would absolutely consider your position to be one that fits on there - the majority of moms do not follow the traditional schedule even if they eventually do have their child receive most or all childhood vaccinations. If you are contemplating a vaccination, even if its your first, your questions would be certainly answered, possibly even from moms on different ends of the vaccination spectrum.
Is it a place for moms who once vaccinated yet have decided to stop completely, no. Just as I feel a mom who was once firmly anti-vax but has since changed their.position doesn't belong in INV.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:58 PM
 
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And I'm not supposed to post on the Mindful Vaccination thread, even though my kids have probably had more vaccines than most of the vax pushers (even Rrrrrachel admits to skipping a few vaccines for her kids), and even though I'd posted a few times that I was having trouble figuring out what to do about the MMR for my youngest, as there are indications that skipping it entirely might be dangerous to her in adulthood, but that Merck's website shows that there are some pretty significant risks for adult women to have the vaccine.

 

And WHY am I not supposed to post on Mindful Vaccination (unless it's to offer support)?  

Because I've been vocal about the fact that my children have had severe reactions.

But it's mindful that parents post that they are CELEBRATING the fact that their kid got vaxxed?

 

Sure seems more like censorship than mindfulness to me.

 

I certainly agree with bolded, but what puzzles me even more is celebrating vaccine reactions. I find that mind boggling as the parent of a child that had a vaccine reaction, which was absolutely not a cause for celebration.


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Old 03-23-2013, 01:02 PM
 
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My apologies - I didn't realize the forum and will delete my post if requested.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:13 PM
 
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There was ONE post that mentioned "celebrating" and it wasn't in the sense that you suggest Taxi. And let's be honest - if you no longer plan on vaxing its not a place you belong.
Jenny I would absolutely consider your position to be one that fits on there - the majority of moms do not follow the traditional schedule even if they eventually do have their child receive most or all childhood vaccinations. If you are contemplating a vaccination, even if its your first, your questions would be certainly answered, possibly even from moms on different ends of the vaccination spectrum.
Is it a place for moms who once vaccinated yet have decided to stop completely, no. Just as I feel a mom who was once firmly anti-vax but has since changed their.position doesn't belong in INV.

I really think you should delete your post.  

In the first place, it's argumentative against an INV position, which is not permitted in INV.


In the second place, it's full of errors.

 

Error #1)  There was an entire thread celebrating having gotten a child vaccinated, not just one post.  http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1373531/the-my-kid-just-had-a-shot-celebration-thread

 

Error #2) I didn't suggest anything about the vaccine celebration thread having a different "sense."  Perhaps you confused my post with someone else's?

 

Error #3) You are saying that someone whose child had a severe vaccine reaction, but is STILL considering at least one more vaccine does not belong in the Mindful Vax Forum.  Or maybe that's not an error.  Maybe you really mean that.  In which case, that's REALLY chilling.

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Old 03-23-2013, 01:38 PM
 
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There was ONE post that mentioned "celebrating" and it wasn't in the sense that you suggest Taxi. And let's be honest - if you no longer plan on vaxing its not a place you belong.
It is a 12 post long thread - although I do know not all posts are on topic.  The "mindfully and proudly vaxxing" thread was similar in feel - although the word "proud" was eventually eliminated.  I don't really have any issues with the celebration thread existing, although I do not really understand celebrating a vaccine (shrug) - but it is not one post.  

Jenny I would absolutely consider your position to be one that fits on there - the majority of moms do not follow the traditional schedule even if they eventually do have their child receive most or all childhood vaccinations. If you are contemplating a vaccination, even if its your first, your questions would be certainly answered, possibly even from moms on different ends of the vaccination spectrum.
I do not think this is true.  The gap between someone who might be off schedule a bit and someone who is only considering one or two vaccines is huge.  The pro-vax position has been dominated by posts and voices that come across a militantly pro-vax. In very recently memory, I can think of pro-vaxxers defending flu vaccines, chicken pox, HP and whooping cough - rather than pointing out or even agreeing that these vaccines have issues. Even if they (rarely) admit to issues - the boiled down message always comes down to "vaccinate anyways."  It is a very polarised debate, so if you want to say the same of non-vaxxers, I think it would be fair. If pro-vaxxers are not militantly pro-vax, and the image is incorrect, then they need to consider the words and tone they respond with.  There are no moms on different ends of the vaccine spectrum on MV. Likewise INV. If you are seen as sympathetic to INV  or MV you are not really allowed to post on the other forum (or maybe you are…I am so confused)
 
 

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Old 03-23-2013, 01:49 PM
 
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My apologies - I didn't realize the forum and will delete my post if requested.

Ack.  I think it can stay.

 

This whole MV should never post on INV and INV should never post on MV is maddening.

 

I think anyone posting somewhere that has a philosophy they do not ascribe to needs to examine their motives (trying to argue or convert people is disrespectfull) and be very careful about word selection, but otherwise it is all good.  There is a similar thread over in MV and maybe mods want to moderate and respond on 2 very similar threads - but that seems silly.  

 

I know MV and INV do not get along, but building the Berlin wall between the two seems can be a little petty (do we really care who answers a question on "which tetanus vaccine has the least aluminum in it?" )  Moreover, I think it does a real disservice to anyone who is really questioning.

I don't want out and out war (the debate forum can have it!) but I don't know that echo chanbers are the way to go either.  Right now we have echo chamber #1 (INV) echo chamber #2 (MV) and the often toxic playground of discussion and debate.  These are not great choices.


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Old 03-23-2013, 02:00 PM
 
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It might be very interesting to create a poll to see if MV are Okay with those who are not vaccinating posting in MV as long as they behave and it is appropriate ; likewise if INV is okay with mindful vaxxers posting if they behave and it is appropriate.


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Old 03-23-2013, 02:45 PM
 
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My understanding is they don't need support w.r.t to the community at large, but rather w.r.t to the natural/AP community.  They have been considered as not-AP-enough or not-natural-enough because of their decision to vax fully and on-schedule.
Yeah, I get that, but it seems silly to me, like *boohoo, we hang out with you people who are all being oppressed for your choices, and it's SO HARD because we aren't being oppressed. And y'all don't want to hear us try to change your minds that the mainstream is right- so you're silencing our voices! Oh, it's so HARD being rich among the poor. Wah!*

Still, if they want to play the PC card and make sure every possible opinion, no matter how mainstream, gets equal treatment on this "alternative" parenting forum, what's it to me? The issue is that MV was campaigned for by one poster, and she is CLEARLY not here looking for support for her choices. She is using the vax forums to try to combat what she sees as a bed of anti-vax propaganda, and is working to increase the volume of the pro-vax voice here, under the thin guise of seeking equal treatment. She only wants to give advice, and all of her advice comes from a pro vax viewpoint.

Whether that is acceptable or not is kind of beside the point, IMO. What matters is that, because of the push to make MV a pro vax forum where only pro vax opinions can be shared, it leaves sel/del out of the picture. Obviously, INV is a friendlier place for sel/del, but as the rules are written, they aren't welcome here. I agree with kathymuggle that we've wound up with two echo chambers and a vicious viper pit.

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Old 03-23-2013, 03:16 PM
 
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I don't want out and out war (the debate forum can have it!) but I don't know that echo chanbers are the way to go either.  Right now we have echo chamber #1 (INV) echo chamber #2 (MV) and the often toxic playground of discussion and debate.  These are not great choices.

 

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Whether that is acceptable or not is kind of beside the point, IMO. What matters is that, because of the push to make MV a pro vax forum where only pro vax opinions can be shared, it leaves sel/del out of the picture. Obviously, INV is a friendlier place for sel/del, but as the rules are written, they aren't welcome here. I agree with kathymuggle that we've wound up with two echo chambers and a vicious viper pit.

 

I heartily agree with both these posts.

 

I posted on the MV version of this thread, but since that one has no response and it is still relevant here, I thought I'd share what I wrote here as well:

Quote:

I'm not clear how much vaccine skepticism is allowed on this [MV] forum, if someone is asking a question about selective vax.  We could post in the debate forum and risk the question devolving into argument, or post here and risk not getting the information we need.  It seems like this forum is respectful towards selective vax, but I almost feel like the discussion is a bit constrained perhaps because folks not wanting to get too controversial in what is essentially a vax forum.  Maybe others don't get this impression like I do.  

 

I don't post here often, and if I do it is usually about health freedoms and not vaccinations specifically, but I am a vaccine skeptic who does not write off vaccinations as a whole.  How much of that is allowed here, if it's not coming from a non-vaxxer?  I know, "support", but where does information against getting a certain vaccine become a non-vax argument?  I'd like someone to help clarify that. 


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Old 03-23-2013, 06:16 PM
 
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I posted on the MV version of this thread, but since that one has no response and it is still relevant here, I thought I'd share what I wrote here as well:

I did as well because I saw the other post first!

 

 

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Maybe it needs to be more clear or that it needs to pop up some how when you post to let you know who can and can not reply to you.

 

Recently I can think of two first time in this area posters that commented they did not know this even after they posted. Either lack of understanding or something? 

 

 

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Old 03-23-2013, 06:38 PM
 
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I vaxxed in the past, and stopped.  I do post on here about my experiences with vaxxing and I occassionaly worry that someone will read them wrong and think I'm pro-vax, BUT, I certainly don't feel like I would belong in the other forums, so here is where I plan to stay! :-P

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:38 PM
 
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Jennyanydots et al, I feel your pain. I like posting here because I don't feel like any of you are here to convert me. On the other hand, I'm not 100% on board with the non-vax decision, so I propose that we partially vaxxing mamas reclaim our turf. There are enough of us, after all. Just not tonight. I'm getting tired. innocent.gifwinky.gif

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Old 03-24-2013, 05:40 PM
 
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Jennyanydots et al, I feel your pain. I like posting here because I don't feel like any of you are here to convert me. On the other hand, I'm not 100% on board with the non-vax decision, so I propose that we partially vaxxing mamas reclaim our turf. There are enough of us, after all. Just not tonight. I'm getting tired. innocent.gifwinky.gif

I don't see it about convincing one to go a certain direction. Doesn't it come down to who you want to hear from?

 

One side you can /should only get one point of view, the other the side (here) I assume you will here from more BTDT types. IMO


 

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Old 03-24-2013, 10:46 PM
 
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I have yet to vax my 10 month old. She may never get a vax or she may get a few select ones. I think it is an ever-evolving position, which is probably what makes this so hard. I'm here in INV because it seems more welcoming, balanced, and informative than the other options. I might prefer a bit more info on which vaxes the super selective consider and how they handle them, but it seems to me that even parents who do a couple of select vaxes fit here. INV feels a little like it could include "I'm Barely Vaxing." (Kathymuggle, if I remember correctly, had one of her children get a vax, and she should surely not be barred or discouraged from posting here. -- sorry to single you out kathy! I thought of you bc I always really enjoy your posts!) Personally, I think some people get offended quite easily at posts that seem fairly inocuous. As long as people are respectful, kind, and not pushy, I'm fine. Sometimes, it is all in HOW you say it, not WHAT you say.

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Old 03-25-2013, 06:44 AM
 
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I agree with the previous post that there is an atmosphere of help and respect here. I disagree that there is a way to say something without offending vaxers on MV. I responded to a thread on MV about a child with a vaccination reaction, who was looking for advice on treating the swelling, and I suggested she may want to post in the Health forum, to get more responses, and was reported! I was polite, respectful, and said nothing about her decision to vaccinate. Sometimes it's not possible to avoid offending.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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Pek I think you must have responded to my post. Why would someone report you for that huh? I was really concerned and I got better responses here, probably sadly because many parents here have experienced horrible reactions.

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Old 03-25-2013, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sonjagrabel View Post

I have yet to vax my 10 month old. She may never get a vax or she may get a few select ones. I think it is an ever-evolving position, which is probably what makes this so hard. I'm here in INV because it seems more welcoming, balanced, and informative than the other options. I might prefer a bit more info on which vaxes the super selective consider and how they handle them, but it seems to me that even parents who do a couple of select vaxes fit here. INV feels a little like it could include "I'm Barely Vaxing." (Kathymuggle, if I remember correctly, had one of her children get a vax, and she should surely not be barred or discouraged from posting here. -- sorry to single you out kathy! I thought of you bc I always really enjoy your posts!) Personally, I think some people get offended quite easily at posts that seem fairly inocuous. As long as people are respectful, kind, and not pushy, I'm fine. Sometimes, it is all in HOW you say it, not WHAT you say.


You are correct - my youngest did get a vaccine.  "Barely Vaxxing" there is a category, lol. 

 

I anticipate I will need to talk to my girls at some point about rubella for one and chicken pox/rubella for another.  I do think this is a decision they can make, and it might very well wait til adulthood, but I would like to tell them what I know about the diseases and vaccines. 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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Old 03-25-2013, 10:24 AM
 
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  "Barely Vaxxing" there is a category, lol. 

 

 

At this rate, we will need dozens of categories.


Never vaxxed, will never consider vaxxing

Never vaxxed, will consider vaxxing

Barely vaxxed, will never consider further vaxxing

Barely vaxxed, will consider further vaxxing

Sel/del vaxxed, will never consider further vaxxing

Sel/del vaxxed, considering further vaxxing

Fully vaxxed up to a point, will never consider further vaxxing

Fully vaxxed up to a point, will consider further vaxxing

Fully vaxxed and regrets it

Fully vaxxed and relieved

Fully vaxxed and celebrates it

Fully vaxxed and ignores severe vax reactions of others (or just doesn't care)

 

And we might need sub-categories for the different reasons for not considering further vexing:

Because of previous reactions of self

Because of previous reactions of child

Because of previous reactions of family member

Because of previous reactions of someone else's family member

Because of general knowledge of health 

Because of general knowledge of corruption of pharmaceutical industry and related government agencies

Because of Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield (I suspect this category might not be needed)

Etc.

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Old 03-25-2013, 10:54 AM
 
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My impression is that the goal has never been to divide people into different boxes but rather to provide different environments for a discussion to move in different ways. I have long been opposed to limiting the forums to certain "kinds" of posters or responses, as this is a discussion forum, afterall.

Ultimately, however, the responsibility of creating those environments lies with the members posting there, not increasingly restrictive forum guidelines or heavier moderation, imo.

Mi vida loca: full-time WOHM, frugalista, foodie wannabe, 10+ years of TCOYF 

 

R-E-S-P-E-C-T spells BRAND NEW User Agreement!!

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