Who posts to "condemn" vaccines? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 20 Old 03-26-2013, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just read a thread in the d&d forum (well, part of a thread, anyway- couldn't finish because the bickering made my head spin), and one exchange therein involved a poster accusing another poster of spending too much time on the vax forums, racking up thousands of posts in about a years time, only to promote vaccine safety. Then another poster responded by saying it goes both ways and that many here are doing the same thing in order to condemn vaccines. The implication of the first post is that the accused is being dishonest about his/her role here and that the real motive goes beyond interest and/or hobby. It isn't clear what is implied by the response, except that perhaps there is an anti vax agenda..?

Anyway, I was struck by the statement that there are many people posting here just to condemn vaccines. I don't think that is true. Condemnation means to declare wrong or evil without reservation, and I don't see that happening here. There are one or two people who are more passionate than others, but by and large many seem to be seeking affirmation for what is suspected, and looking for evidence beyond the dumbed down and circular junk we get from government and industry.

In fact, many people who argue against the stridently pro vax positions that inundate this forum from 2 sources are selective/delayed vaccinators themselves. So cautious, yes, but anti vax? No.

I think it is natural to question the motives of anyone who takes an obsessive interest in a topic he/she is not involved in, and if you are very happy with your decision to vaccinate your kids, why would you feel the need to get so heavily involved in the concerns of others? To proselytize? Why?

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#2 of 20 Old 03-26-2013, 06:40 PM
 
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I generally only wander over here if something pops up in the new posts and I read a lot more than I post to. I've been a member for ten years and post in multiple different forums. 

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#3 of 20 Old 03-26-2013, 06:43 PM
 
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That probably doesn't answer your question... i am typing one handed on a tablet... but yeah, don't get it. What would we gain?

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#4 of 20 Old 03-26-2013, 11:49 PM
 
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For me it's not so much as proving that vaccines are "bad", but more providing information to inform others. There are a lot of moms on here who come on just to read information on vaccines and for all the pro-vaccine information that is shared, there is just as important information on our end to share. I've always said that I really could care less who vaccinates their children just as long as they are informed of all the side effects, ingredients, etc. I guess I get passionate about this issue (not necessarily on here, but definitely on Facebook) because there are a lot of studies and such done by pharmaceutical companies proving vaccine "safety" and for people just learning about vaccines, they may not know to look for that sort of thing or they don't even provide a real link to any studies. The formaldehyde thread in the discussion and debate section really bothers me for that...it's just pictures from a Facebook page with no link of any study. Non-vax parents (I feel anyways) are always ragged on to provide studies, evidence, etc and I can't stand when people are being misinformed by pictures that could really be created by anyone and shared on Facebook. 


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#5 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 06:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

I just read a thread in the d&d forum (well, part of a thread, anyway- couldn't finish because the bickering made my head spin), and one exchange therein involved a poster accusing another poster of spending too much time on the vax forums, racking up thousands of posts in about a years time, only to promote vaccine safety. Then another poster responded by saying it goes both ways and that many here are doing the same thing in order to condemn vaccines. The implication of the first post is that the accused is being dishonest about his/her role here and that the real motive goes beyond interest and/or hobby. It isn't clear what is implied by the response, except that perhaps there is an anti vax agenda..?

Anyway, I was struck by the statement that there are many people posting here just to condemn vaccines. I don't think that is true. Condemnation means to declare wrong or evil without reservation, and I don't see that happening here. There are one or two people who are more passionate than others, but by and large many seem to be seeking affirmation for what is suspected, and looking for evidence beyond the dumbed down and circular junk we get from government and industry.

In fact, many people who argue against the stridently pro vax positions that inundate this forum from 2 sources are selective/delayed vaccinators themselves. So cautious, yes, but anti vax? No.

I think it is natural to question the motives of anyone who takes an obsessive interest in a topic he/she is not involved in, and if you are very happy with your decision to vaccinate your kids, why would you feel the need to get so heavily involved in the concerns of others? To proselytize? Why?

 

 

Well I am one you are talking about and I strongly disagree.

 

I see a set agenda going on by two select posters, with a few others tagging on.

 

I feel this way because I see a set pattern here. I see one poster that has only made a few random posts outside of the vaccine section in which the posts are out right condemnation of "crunchy parenting" leading me to believe why would you want to join a group (mothering) if you object to a life style most choose to follow?

 

In addition in the vaccine section there appears to a pattern where two posters are following a directive that aligns them self with a Facebook page who's only objective is to go after ANY parent that does not follow the CDC vaccine schedule. A Facebook page with followers who view anyone who questions as a threat to the rest of society that needs to be gone after, so when I see it happening here, I clearly see a set agenda. I don't see rational discussion. I don't see any desire. What I see is a all out attempt to view mothering as a bunch of loonies and a site to point to further their agenda. Discrediting the views of anyone here who isn't towing the line, to view mothers here as extremest.

The posts are even getting directly inline with the Facebook pages daily memes. 

 

I'm sorry you don't see this. 

 

ETA- IMO when you align yourself with a group and promote their propaganda (5+ memes) directly taken from their site, that really shows where your true motives are.


 

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#6 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 06:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

I just read a thread in the d&d forum (well, part of a thread, anyway- couldn't finish because the bickering made my head spin), and one exchange therein involved a poster accusing another poster of spending too much time on the vax forums, racking up thousands of posts in about a years time, only to promote vaccine safety. Then another poster responded by saying it goes both ways and that many here are doing the same thing in order to condemn vaccines. The implication of the first post is that the accused is being dishonest about his/her role here and that the real motive goes beyond interest and/or hobby. It isn't clear what is implied by the response, except that perhaps there is an anti vax agenda..?
My 2 cents on this.
I do not think you have to be a shill to be on here all the time.  There have been times when I was the poster with the most posts for the day or week….this is not something I am proud of.  I am passionate about vaccines, and addicted to the Internet.  There is my excuse shy.gif I imagine a pro-vax person is equally capable of being passionate and addicted.
 

Anyway, I was struck by the statement that there are many people posting here just to condemn vaccines. I don't think that is true. Condemnation means to declare wrong or evil without reservation, and I don't see that happening here. There are one or two people who are more passionate than others, but by and large many seem to be seeking affirmation for what is suspected, and looking for evidence beyond the dumbed down and circular junk we get from government and industry.

In fact, many people who argue against the stridently pro vax positions that inundate this forum from 2 sources are selective/delayed vaccinators themselves. So cautious, yes, but anti vax? No.
I think there are people who I would define as anti-vax here (or more - they have self identified as anti-vax). I do not think they are the majority. 
I can see why pro-vaxxers think we condemn vaccination.  If they say MMR and we say nay, and they say HPV and we say Nay (we need a cheer!) it might come across as we are condemning vaccines.  I have told a number of pro-vaxxers lately that they come across as militantly and 100% pro-vax, so I think it is reasonable to look at ourselves and see if we come across as militantly 100% non vax.
For myself I would say I condemn the schedule of vaccination and routine vaccination.  I very much dislike a one size fits all approach and fear mongering around certain childhood diseases.  I condemn the conflicts of interest in the study of vaccines.  There is more…..There are lots of things I condemn about the politics and practice of vaccinations, but I do not condemn all vaccines.  
If I lived in an area where Diphtheria was common, I would indeed get a diphtheria shot.  Diphtheria has a high death rate.  I would hope my people were working on creating a more sanitary and less overcrowded living conditions, but in the meantime, I would get the shot.

I think it is natural to question the motives of anyone who takes an obsessive interest in a topic he/she is not involved in, and if you are very happy with your decision to vaccinate your kids, why would you feel the need to get so heavily involved in the concerns of others? To proselytize? Why?

I am going to turn the question on myself, as most of my vaccine decisions were made years ago, and i am not really questioning things.  Well, once in a while - but the vast majority of my post have not been about me figuring things out.

 

So…why do I spend so much time here?

 

1.  I like smart, civil debate.  For a long time, I could get that here.

 

2.  Sometimes it is personal.  If I get into with a person, I can have a hard time walking away.  It is a little immature and a personal flaw I am working on.

 

3.  It started with autism.  As the aunt of 2 severely autistic children, it is personal to me.

 

4.  For a long time, I thought I was providing information to people, information they might not have.  Lurkers, perhaps.   I am not so sure of that anymore….MDC has been slowish for a long time, and arguing with the same people over and over again if few other people (other than the typical core) are reading is not worth my time.  I still do think lots of people are misinformed about vaccines (I have been hanging out a bit on a more mainstream forum lately and the ignorance that many parents have about vaccines and diseases is quite shocking)  I am just not sure they are hanging out here.  

 

BTW, I dislike proselytizing.  A lot. I try not to do it.  I hope I never have - although I have been on here along time, so who knows.  I think "no proselytizing" should be a forum guideline.   

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#7 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 06:47 AM
 
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4.  For a long time, I thought I was providing information to people, information they might not have.  Lurkers, perhaps.   I am not so sure of that anymore….MDC has been slowish for a long time, and arguing with the same people over and over again if few other people (other than the typical core) are reading is not worth my time.  i still do think lots of people are misinformed about vaccines (I have been hanging out a bit on a more mainstream forum lately and the ignorance that many parents have about vaccines and diseases is quite shocking)  I am just not sure they are hanging out here.  

 

 

and I would add, I see this as I said and it adds to your point, if mothering vaccine section can be discredited it won't serve as help to others-you might question other section beside vaccines if that can be achieved as well- IMO 


 

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#8 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 07:14 AM
 
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I just read a thread in the d&d forum (well, part of a thread, anyway- couldn't finish because the bickering made my head spin), and one exchange therein involved a poster accusing another poster of spending too much time on the vax forums, racking up thousands of posts in about a years time, only to promote vaccine safety. Then another poster responded by saying it goes both ways and that many here are doing the same thing in order to condemn vaccines. The implication of the first post is that the accused is being dishonest about his/her role here and that the real motive goes beyond interest and/or hobby. It isn't clear what is implied by the response, except that perhaps there is an anti vax agenda..?

Anyway, I was struck by the statement that there are many people posting here just to condemn vaccines. I don't think that is true. Condemnation means to declare wrong or evil without reservation, and I don't see that happening here. There are one or two people who are more passionate than others, but by and large many seem to be seeking affirmation for what is suspected, and looking for evidence beyond the dumbed down and circular junk we get from government and industry.

In fact, many people who argue against the stridently pro vax positions that inundate this forum from 2 sources are selective/delayed vaccinators themselves. So cautious, yes, but anti vax? No.

I think it is natural to question the motives of anyone who takes an obsessive interest in a topic he/she is not involved in, and if you are very happy with your decision to vaccinate your kids, why would you feel the need to get so heavily involved in the concerns of others? To proselytize? Why?

Some people get off on trying to "prove" that others are wrong. If certain people are actually NOT misrepresenting themselves here - then its really more about personality than anything else IMO I know several people like this in my own life and professionally (I'm in the mental health field - there are aspects of clinical personality disorders) They are know it alls and have a very hard time letting other people have their own opinions without trying to show/prove to them that said opinions are actually WRONG. These people will spend a massive amount of time and energy that could and should be directed elsewhere in trying to prove their points. I steer clear of folks like this (at least personally - I can't at work!!)  I find them annoying!!

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#9 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 11:55 AM
 
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Guess I didn't realize how much drama was out there on the other sections - sometimes ignorance is bliss!  I have enough drama in my life, I don't need to come here looking for it, so I stick with the forums where I know people are like-minded, discussions are civil, and I can learn and share :-)  And let me say I do get into heated debates if I don't watch myself so I'm much better off expending my energy elsewhere!

 

As for the original question, for me personally, I don't condem vaxing at all.  Is it right for my family? Certainly not myself or my DD as we've had our reactions, and I'd like to think I have an impact on DH and his decisions, but that isn't always the case.  I don't go around waving a banner that no one should vaccinate - alhough I do have pro-vax friends who do exactly this shouting for all that "everyone NEEDS to vax".  To each his own - I won't push my beliefs on others but I also don't tolerate being pushed against.

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#10 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Serenbat, which part are you disagreeing with? I agree with what you said, and it looks like a more strongly worded version of what I wrote, with regard to the pro vax posters. Sorry, I think I'm missing part of your point.

Kathy, I think one of the key points I see is the issue of whether it's personal or not. As you say, you have autism in your family, and likewise, many of us have vaccine damaged children ourselves, or have witnessed something similar in a friend or family member's child. So for those of us who fit in that category, clearly- it is personal. And even if one does not have a negative experience with vaccines, if you've embarked on the research journey to try to make a decision for your children (or pets, even!), you've likely encountered tremendous and increasing pressure to vaccinate, even as you find the lack of reassuring research appalling. So it becomes personal! And when an issue touches your life to this extent, it makes perfect sense that you'd spend time obsessing over it and seeking out others to talk with about it. And online might be your only option for finding people open to this discussion, as it is often difficult to talk with people IRL about controversial, non mainstream views.

On the other hand, I just don't see how pro vaxxers have a personal stake in the issue. I can imagine several arguments for how they might, but they all seem very thin to me. They have made their decision, they feel these pharmaceuticals are "safe and effective" and end of story. I get that some are just, as Marnica says, out to prove others wrong, but seriously- to the point that you clearly spend hours a day working on it? I don't get it, unless there's a part of the picture, some other incentive, missing.

I guess with the "condemn" thing I may be getting hung up on semantics- it just seems like the anti vax/vax skeptical attitude here is more one of "buyer beware, know the risks of what you're getting into" than "no one should ever consent to vaccination, under any circumstances," and THAT would be condemnation. I took offense at the misrepresentation of the side of the argument with which I identify. The pro vax side has a more black and white view that suggests you must be either stupid, paranoid, or a conspiracy theorist (or all of the above) to come to a different conclusion than they have, whereas the skeptics acknowledge over and over that different people may do all the research and come to opposite conclusions- the important thing is that we have transparent information so that we may make an educated decision.

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#11 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 02:57 PM
 
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Serenbat, which part are you disagreeing with? I agree with what you said, and it looks like a more strongly worded version of what I wrote, with regard to the pro vax posters. Sorry, I think I'm missing part of your point.

 

 

This part - I highlighted 

It isn't clear what is implied by the response, except that perhaps there is an anti vax agenda..?

                           and you folow by saying...

Anyway, I was struck by the statement that there are many people posting here just to condemn vaccines. I don't think that is true.

 

I said I strongly disagree.

I think there are those who view it, like the poster that replied to me stated (I was only going after one type-PRO) there is an Anti- vax agenda. I certainly feel, since I have seen it expressed that many feel there is an Anti-wax agenda here and that did come up when the separation of threads awhile back, it was even floated that mothering supported Anti-vax in the minds of some.

 

Sorry I didn't make that clear, I was also trying to explain about the other two and why I brought it up. 

 

I do think it is "viewed" right or wrongly that this site has an Anti-vax/strongly delayed view point and I see an effort to discredit views on here- thus the reason for the recently re-posts of the memes-IMO. I do feel there is a bias as how it's talked about outside of here. 


 

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#12 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok thanks for clarifying. I do agree, though, that it seems to others that there's an anti vax agenda. I just don't agree that this place is a hive of people who post "just to condemn vaccines," as I said- I think this side of the argument is so much more nuanced than that and I resent the dismissive accusation by that poster. Does that make sense? I know, I'm being too sensitive.

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#13 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 03:47 PM
 
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I don't think your being too insensitive.
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#14 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 05:04 PM
 
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I don't think your being too insensitive.

me neither!

 

I will say here, sure other have seen it so, the way you were "snapped at" the other day was IMO typical of a lot that I have seen over the past year-if your not a regular it's done, like it was done to you (again IMO) to make you look like your a stupid fool (some crazy non-PRO vexer) and this is what has really gotten to me. One can hardly ask a question without it being twisted. Not only was it rude how you were gone after, but this seems so intentional to me to do this soooooo often, as for a reason- that is how it comes off to me.


 

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#15 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 06:25 PM
 
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I hope I'm not one of the problem people.

I spend waaaay too much time, here. When my son's using our computer, I pick up the android and post. He's been using it a lot!

I guess I need to do more in real life. I have nearly as many posts as some of the provaxers. But I post in many different forums.

My reason for posting, besides boredom, is to give a voice to the children who are having their futures created by our decisions. Do I know vaccination is evil? No. I know there's enough questions to asking the questions. I dislike those who try to silence the questions. I'd really like a place where we can discuss it without feeling like we're forced into one side or another.
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#16 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 06:44 PM
 
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I hope I'm not one of the problem people. I for one certainly do not see that!!
 
 I dislike those who try to silence the questions. I'd really like a place where we can discuss it without feeling like we're forced into one side or another.

I don't see questions being asked anymore and really here is not the section (IMO) to ask certain types of questions either. I see the minute something comes up presto... it goes into it just can't be, there is no bad, it's all good, but vaxes must be safer (I don't even know what that means?), like the exact same lines are being used over and over again and don't forget the "belittling" yet next posts that's out the door dizzy.gif this is how I see things

 

For the past few weeks IRL I have had a question and I don't want to even post about it based on a recent thread and all the out right deniers would come out in full force so I know it would just be shot down right away ( I would be made to feel stupid for asking it too) , and I don't need support, so it doesn't fit here.


 

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#17 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 07:23 PM
 
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For the past few weeks IRL I have had a question and I don't want to even post about it based on a recent thread and all the out right deniers would come out in full force so I know it would just be shot down right away ( I would be made to feel stupid for asking it too) , and I don't need support, so it doesn't fit here.

Can you reword it so it your question fits in here or in research?  I do that when I do not want to deal with bickering.  I know it is not a perfect idea, as it limits respondents, but still.


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#18 of 20 Old 03-27-2013, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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pek, I certainly don't see you as part of any problem. Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, but the only problem posters I see are 2 strident pro vaxxers. There are many other people, on both sides of the issue, who feel passionate about their views and post accordingly- but most of us are also posting in other parts of the mdc forum, and most don't seem to make the vax forum a full time job. And EVEN IF they do, if they are doing so because this issue touches their lives personally- and HOW CAN IT if you're a content pro vaxxer with no ulterior motive??- I think that's perfectly acceptable!

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#19 of 20 Old 03-28-2013, 05:29 AM
 
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Like Serenbat, I am one of the posters you are referring to.  And, like Serenbat, I'm not posting just to condemn vaccines.  I have very serious concerns and criticisms of vaccines, of the industry that sells/profits from/markets them, and of both health care industry's and governments roles in recommending/mandating invasive procedures based on lies.  Is that the same thing as condemning vaccines?  I have said several times that if I could go back in time, I'd have opted for only a very few vaccines, and started at age 2 at the earliest.

 

As kathymuggle pointed out, sometimes it is personal.  I have shared a great deal of personal information--details of my own severe reactions, those of my children, the initial response of doctors and nurse, the documentation of vax reactions later by the specialists we saw, the roadblocks set up by school and workplace due to medical exemption from vax, etc.   do I have an agenda?  Yes, I've admitted it--I hope to prevent other mothers and their children from the medical problems we have faced, problems which we were initially told could not possibly be related to vaccines. 

 

As for the comment about a poster spending massive amounts of time here promoting vaccination?  When my children were very small, I couldn't even keep up with housework, let alone find a good balance between children, work, and sleep.  Even now, with my kids in school, I have trouble getting everything done.  Yes, I post almost every day.  Sometimes I post 2-3, even 4 times a day.  But you won't  find that I post 2-3 times an hour--usually with research--10-14 hours a day every day for over a year. Is there a good reason NOT to wonder about the motives of a poster who does so, while claiming to have a small child and a job?

 

i suppose such a poster could be extremely wealthy, with a nanny and housekeeper--but what about the job?  Ok, I suppose such a poster could be using the work computer to post on MDC rather than, um, working.

 

so then the possibilities include Internet addiction and personality disorders. And that could be a possibility for anyone on any forum, even lurkers.

 

and there would still be the question of motive.  Why would someone happy with their own decision to vax spend so much time and effort trying to tear down parents and scientists who question and criticize vaccines?

 

i hope what I've just said isn't bickerish or makes anybody's head spin, but if it is, I'll be happy to delete.

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#20 of 20 Old 04-05-2013, 09:42 AM
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This thread is one of many sitting in the moderation queue as a reported post awaiting input from me. So here it goes.

 

While I can appreciate that some of you are suspicious by the avid posting of some members, it is not at all appropriate to accuse anyone of or imply that they are being paid to post. So I need to draw a line here. No posting of this nature will be accepted. Posting in this way, even if subtly implied will result in loss of posting privileges. 

 

This thread is now closed and any concerns can be PMed to me or Adina. 


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