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#1 of 68 Old 04-11-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mmr-and-measles-in-south-wales-in-fear-of-the-unknown-we-risked-the-wellknown-8563295.html

"Common sense eventually triumphed over MMR jab scaremongering, but it took 15 years, hundreds of new measles cases and countless misinformed headlines"

What is obvious is that article itself is a prime example of the scaremongering. Hundreds of new measles cases?

Scroll down to the comment section and see that "common sense" read and posted the actual surveillance reports--which totaled fewer than 30 measles cases. Also mentioned is the fact that 93% of Swansea residents have already had both jabs.

"The autism issue has been fraught with difficulty, precisely because parents of autistic children are having a tough enough time without being dismissed as gullible fools by an impatient scientific community. But plenty of autism campaigners feel equally irate. Ari Ne’eman – the first person with an autism spectrum disorder to sit on the US National Council on Disability – points out that 'the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history.' "

Great. The author says that the great scientific community dismisses parents of autistic children as gullible fools--and manages to imply that they therefore must be gullible fools. One comes away from that paragraph with "parents of autistic children = gullible fools" etched in one's subconscious. Very clever--and well-known to trial attorneys--tactic.

In the same paragrapgh, Ari Ne'eman's quote "the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history," is unbelievably offensive to the tens of thousands of parents of severely disabled autistic children, children who are incontinent, non-verbal, severely brain-damaged, and yes, poor, disabled, pitiful, and needing saving. Shame on him for equating their situation with his.

Not once does the author even acknowledge that some children will have severe reactions to the MMR. Not once does she mention that, even according to Merck's own website, adult females receiving the MMR have a 25% chance of arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. Not once does she mention that both US and Italian governments have, in the last several months, both admitted that MMR caused autism, and compensated the families.

At least, there is some wisdom in the comments.

"Anenome," who claims a doctorate in medical genetics, correctly point out that a child's chance of successfully recovering from measles is far greater than successfully recovering from MMR-induced epilepsy.

One has to wonder, when writers are so foolish as to accuse others of fear-mongering right smack in the middle of their own text-book example of fear-mongering ("Measles seemed to be nothing worse than a mild childhood illness from which everyone recovered in a week. Then, in 2006, a 13-year-old boy became the first person in Britain in more than a decade to die of the disease.")

At what point will everyone notice not only that the emperor's new clothes do not exist, but that he is buck-naked?
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#2 of 68 Old 04-11-2013, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mmr-and-measles-in-south-wales-in-fear-of-the-unknown-we-risked-the-wellknown-8563295.html

"Common sense eventually triumphed over MMR jab scaremongering, but it took 15 years, hundreds of new measles cases and countless misinformed headlines"

What is obvious is that article itself is a prime example of the scaremongering. Hundreds of new measles cases?

Scroll down to the comment section and see that "common sense" read and posted the actual surveillance reports--which totaled fewer than 30 measles cases. Also mentioned is the fact that 93% of Swansea residents have already had both jabs.

"The autism issue has been fraught with difficulty, precisely because parents of autistic children are having a tough enough time without being dismissed as gullible fools by an impatient scientific community. But plenty of autism campaigners feel equally irate. Ari Ne’eman – the first person with an autism spectrum disorder to sit on the US National Council on Disability – points out that 'the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history.' "

Great. The author says that the great scientific community dismisses parents of autistic children as gullible fools--and manages to imply that they therefore must be gullible fools. One comes away from that paragraph with "parents of autistic children = gullible fools" etched in one's subconscious. Very clever--and well-known to trial attorneys--tactic.

In the same paragrapgh, Ari Ne'eman's quote "the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history," is unbelievably offensive to the tens of thousands of parents of severely disabled autistic children, children who are incontinent, non-verbal, severely brain-damaged, and yes, poor, disabled, pitiful, and needing saving. Shame on him for equating their situation with his.

Not once does the author even acknowledge that some children will have severe reactions to the MMR. Not once does she mention that, even according to Merck's own website, adult females receiving the MMR have a 25% chance of arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. Not once does she mention that both US and Italian governments have, in the last several months, both admitted that MMR caused autism, and compensated the families.

At least, there is some wisdom in the comments.

"Anenome," who claims a doctorate in medical genetics, correctly point out that a child's chance of successfully recovering from measles is far greater than successfully recovering from MMR-induced epilepsy.

One has to wonder, when writers are so foolish as to accuse others of fear-mongering right smack in the middle of their own text-book example of fear-mongering ("Measles seemed to be nothing worse than a mild childhood illness from which everyone recovered in a week. Then, in 2006, a 13-year-old boy became the first person in Britain in more than a decade to die of the disease.")

At what point will everyone notice not only that the emperor's new clothes do not exist, but that he is buck-naked?

I don't think they will ever notice. The masses are usually putty in the hands of propagandists. God I've become so cynical greensad.gif

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#3 of 68 Old 04-11-2013, 01:09 PM
 
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I decided to google the Swansea situation, and found this in the Guardian:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/11/mmr-vaccination-swansea-new-appeal

 

"Before the introduction of the MMR jab in 1988 about half a million children caught measles each year in the UK. Approximately 100 of those died."

 

Hold up a sec.  The CDC say 1/1000 -2/1000 die from measles, yet the Guardian is saying 100/ 500 000  which is 1/5000.  Which is it?  Before someone comes on and says the CDc is US and Guardian is British, let's point out that they are both wealthy countries with decent medical care.  

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#4 of 68 Old 04-11-2013, 01:15 PM
 
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http://www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1559684/nhs-is-praised-for-response-to-measles-outbreak

 

Babies as young as 6 months to get MMR vaccine if they live in high outbreak areas.  They will still need 2 more shots at the regular time.

 

http://www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1559684/nhs-is-praised-for-response-to-measles-outbreak


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#5 of 68 Old 04-11-2013, 01:25 PM
 
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Last one - looks like Offit has to get in on things!!!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22089485

 

 

"Dr Paul Offit, a US-based measles expert, told the BBC that mandatory vaccinations in America had prevented similar outbreaks.

His comments came as measles cases in the Swansea area rose to 620.

The Welsh government said it believed the "hard won trust" in MMR would be damaged if vaccination was compulsory…."

Offit is quoted as saying:

"In this country<USA> we just don't think its your inalienable right to catch and transmit a potentially fatal infection and so we at least put that one hoop you have to jump through which is mandatory vaccination."

Start 

So…offfit is a measles expert now and likes to tell other countries what to do?  Eff off, Offit!  


Go Wales for not buying his "mandatory" message.

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#6 of 68 Old 04-11-2013, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I read somewhere that even in Swansea, they had a 94% vaccination rate.  Which means that (as usual) the majority of the measles cases are in fully vaccinated individuals.  I wonder if anyone will ever bother to research what underlying conditions might be in the fully-vaxed population that still comes down with the diseases for which they are vaccinated--and whether those underlying conditions are actually caused by the vaccines...

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#7 of 68 Old 04-11-2013, 02:00 PM
 
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doesn't seem like it's the big deal the media seems to want to make it- the masses doesn't seem to be to get vaccinated - I have family in another section and no one outside of this area seems that concerned

 

graph on this site too - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22098583 they do mention the vac won't work in those who are incubating but they are getting a milder outbreak

 

how many do you need for a "epidemic" to be a real epidemic,  here or there and does it really depend on the disease in question? I can't find a straight answer to that 


 

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Any data on vaxxed v. non-vaxxed cases?

Measles outbreaks are like Christmas-time those who are hell-bent on taking our informed consent rights away. Why am I not surprised to see Offit gleefully scoring some cheap political points? eyesroll.gif

No worries, though. Offit's an American. So the UK should be fine.. We Americans never step in and tell other countries how they should govern their affairs. Sheepish.gif

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#9 of 68 Old 04-12-2013, 04:44 AM
 
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9977550/Who-is-to-blame-for-Wales-measles-outbreak.html  this is interesting about their vaccine rates and I guess when you hit second grades (middle school) you just expel it from breathing winky.gif (as in all non vac have it in them to spread!!)  not like it sheds or anything - seems to strange none of the stories seem to mention that - there does seems to be a lot of newspapers that have found someone to blame in this outbreak-wow, what a surprise 


 

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#10 of 68 Old 04-12-2013, 06:08 AM
 
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Last one - looks like Offit has to get in on things!!!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22089485

 

 

"Dr Paul Offit, a US-based measles expert, told the BBC that mandatory vaccinations in America had prevented similar outbreaks.

His comments came as measles cases in the Swansea area rose to 620.

The Welsh government said it believed the "hard won trust" in MMR would be damaged if vaccination was compulsory…."

Offit is quoted as saying:

"In this country<USA> we just don't think its your inalienable right to catch and transmit a potentially fatal infection and so we at least put that one hoop you have to jump through which is mandatory vaccination."

Start 

So…offfit is a measles expert now and likes to tell other countries what to do?  Eff off, Offit!  


Go Wales for not buying his "mandatory" message.

 

Yes! He is an autism expert too didn't you know? Although he has never treated any children with autism, he is to go to guy for all autism info!! He really is amazing??? How does he know so much about so many things?


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#11 of 68 Old 04-12-2013, 06:10 AM
 
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I read somewhere that even in Swansea, they had a 94% vaccination rate.  Which means that (as usual) the majority of the measles cases are in fully vaccinated individuals.  I wonder if anyone will ever bother to research what underlying conditions might be in the fully-vaxed population that still comes down with the diseases for which they are vaccinated--and whether those underlying conditions are actually caused by the vaccines...

Do you remember where that stat came from Taxi? That would be useful to be able to link to. 


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#12 of 68 Old 04-12-2013, 06:17 AM
 
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Do you remember where that stat came from Taxi? That would be useful to be able to link to. 

it is also in the link I posted - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9977550/Who-is-to-blame-for-Wales-measles-outbreak.html

 

Yet the MMR scandal raged 10-15 years ago and, while UK immunisation rates fell from 92 per cent in 1995-6 to 80 per cent in 2003-4, by 2011-12, it was back to 91.2 per cent. In Wales, figures for October to December 2012 show a 94 per cent uptake. Shouldn’t we be back on course?


 

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#13 of 68 Old 04-12-2013, 07:59 AM
 
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this might be on interest too - 2012 rates - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20510525


 

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I was reading the telegraph article Serenbat posted, and saw this:

 

"Dr Roland Salmon, consultant epidemiologist for Public Health Wales explains: ''America has run a very aggressive policy in the past 25 years, which has been replicated throughout the New World. And vaccination rates are high in many developing countries too. But Europe has been left behind: France had large outbreaks up to 2011, as did Italy and Spain.”

 

I wish they would stop lying.

 

Canada has 10 provinces - only 3 require any form of exemption, and all exemptions are easy to get (i.e philosophical)

A quick search showed neither Australia or NewZealand have school entry tied to vaccines (although Australia might have some sort of child bonus linked to vaccines - however Australians report it is easy to get a philosophical exemption, and still get the money. ) 

 

So, no, USA style vaccination policy has not been replicated thorughout the new world.

 

I wonder if Dr. Salmon is spouting such nonsense because he want mandatory vaccines (which some people would say the USA does not have, some say they do (including Offit)) and thinks it will be an easier sell if he tries to paint a picture that the rest of the world is doing it?


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#15 of 68 Old 04-12-2013, 08:15 AM
 
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I wonder Dr. Salmon is spouting such nonsense because he want mandatory vaccines (which some people would say the USA does not have, some say they do (including Offit)) and thinks it will be an easier sell if he tries to paint a picture that the rest of the world is doing it?

 

this was from the link I posted too - they better work on England to get their rates up!!

 

The HSCIC's NHS Immunisation Statistics, England , 2011-12 report shows coverage in England is still below that of other UK nations.

Scotland has the highest uptake of 94.3%, followed by Northern Ireland at 93.3% and then Wales at 92.7%. Overall the UK is at 91.6%.

In England, London had the lowest uptake at just 86.1%.


 

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14249/Demand-soars-single-jab.html

 

The above discusses that many parents have wanted a single shot in the UK, but been unable to get it.  

 

I am willing to bet that the already high vaccine uptake would have been even higher had a single jab been available.  

 

Here is another story, it is from 2009 but it say 25 000 children a year in the UK get single jabs (i.e separate m m and r  vaccines were available)  I bet that when that became unavailable, some of those parents simply chose not to get the vaccine.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1150445/Thousands-children-left-unprotected-mumps-drug-firm-halts-single-jab-supply.html


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#17 of 68 Old 04-12-2013, 06:49 PM
 
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So, it's because of Wakefield but...........  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22132428

 

 

 

"While MMR vaccination uptake fell from February 1998, there was a reciprocal increase in the uptake of the single vaccines," he said.

 

"Six months later, in September 1998, the British government withdrew the importation licence for the single vaccines, effectively blocking this option for parents.

"Measles cases in the UK rose when the government withdrew the importation licence for the single measles vaccine leaving concerned parents with no choice. "

 

 

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#18 of 68 Old 04-16-2013, 04:58 AM
 
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fear just suddenly became the issue, apparently there has been a number of cases for months in Wales -   http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22164296   


 

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#19 of 68 Old 04-22-2013, 03:54 AM
 
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Have they tried quarantine? 

 

This was done during an outbreak in Switzerland though they seemed to do it much earlier, when the number infected was smaller.

 

Large measles outbreak in Geneva, Switzerland, January to August 2011: descriptive epidemiology and demonstration of quarantine effectiveness

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20395
 


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#20 of 68 Old 04-23-2013, 10:35 AM
 
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Where to start with Taximom.......... (quotes in italics)

 

"What is obvious is that article itself is a prime example of the scaremongering. Hundreds of new measles cases?


Scroll down to the comment section and see that "common sense" read and posted the actual surveillance reports--which totaled fewer than 30 measles cases."

 

 

I am afraid you misread the surveillance reports and should look at them again.

 

The reports that you posted show that, in the Swansea area only (and only looking at 2013), there were 39 new cases recorded in January, a further 66 new cases in February and 238 new cases in March.  That's three hundred and forty-three new cases this year (not including April).

 

In the same period last year, there were just thirteen cases.

 

I would suggested that you have another read of the document that you posted.  http://www2.nphs.wales.nhs.uk:8080/CommunitySurveillanceDocs.nsf/3dc04669c9e1eaa880257062003b246b/abefff808d75f76580257b41003cf988/$FILE/monthly%20notif%20201303.pdf

It's page 4.

 

 

 

"I read somewhere that even in Swansea, they had a 94% vaccination rate.  Which means that (as usual) the majority of the measles cases are in fully vaccinated individuals."

 

No, that is incorrect, and should be apparent to anyone.  I am unsure on the figure of 94% but will assume it to be correct.

 

To use approximate figures - Swansea's population is around 240,000.  There are around 800 reported cases of measles at present.

 

That means approximately 0.33% of people in Swansea have measles.

 

For all you or I know, those infected could easily all be part of the 6% of people in Swansea who are unvaccinated.

 

It is equally true that all those infected COULD be vaccinated, or that there is a split between vaccinated/unvaccinated - but there is currently no data.  On the statistics provided it is impossible to tell.  You are in fact making a very spurious assumption.

 

***note, I have realised that the figure of 240,000 actually only applies to the city of Swansea itself and not the wider area.  The population figure should actually be higher (and accordingly, the percentage of people infected by measles should be even lower.

 

 

 

I am not here to accuse anyone of being paranoid, or crackpots, or whatever else those in the anti-vacc movement are sometimes called.  Whilst there is still no scientific study showing a link between autism and vaccines, the fact that courts in at least two countries have made compensation awards shows that there is very compelling lay evidence (that is even enough to convince some scientists).  I'm of the opinion that there should further scientific studies on a much larger scale and would be unsurprised if a link is found.  

 

However, people like TaxiMom do not do the cause any good.  She has posted valid sources but completely misunderstood or misquoted them.  She also draws illogical conclusions for the sake of fitting her own agenda.  I consider this shameful on a message board about children's health (unless of course she is willing to admit her obvious errors, in which case she's just very sloppy).

 

It is also disappointing that not one other poster has pulled her up on these, very elementary, mistakes.

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#21 of 68 Old 04-23-2013, 02:11 PM
 
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Dybil, I am not sure who you are as you are new.... but there is nothing wrong with Taxi post and I don't find it discrediting at all. This is the important thing she said (which I am sure you didn't mean to miss)

I wouldn't advise coming on a board of people you don't know, attacking a long time member and bordering on the offensive. If you are a non vaxer who also needs support then welcome.

 

In the same paragrapgh, Ari Ne'eman's quote "the idea of the poor, pitiful disabled person that we need to save… belongs on the ash heap of history," is unbelievably offensive to the tens of thousands of parents of severely disabled autistic children, children who are incontinent, non-verbal, severely brain-damaged, and yes, poor, disabled, pitiful, and needing saving. Shame on him for equating their situation with his.

Not once does the author even acknowledge that some children will have
(not maybe but they know WILL HAVE) severe reactions to the MMR. Not once does she mention that, even according to Merck's own website, adult females receiving the MMR have a 25% chance of arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. Not once does she mention that both US and Italian governments have, in the last several months, both admitted that MMR caused autism, and compensated the families.I don't believe we know the REAL number of children who WILL HAVE a bad reaction to getting real measles. I have read the data and to many holes in their assumptions for my taste.

 

This is what was important for Taxi Mom to say.   I read that scaremongering report she posted. I can't find figures anywhere on it at all anymore or they have been removed. The reason it is a scaremongering report is because it acts as though the only true scare is if people don't vaccinate! angry.gif

 

Try these REAL reports....

 

This is JUST Notified accounts where there have been no lab tested confirmation..... this is important though

http://www2.nphs.wales.nhs.uk:8080/CommunitySurveillanceDocs.nsf/3dc04669c9e1eaa880257062003b246b/abefff808d75f76580257b41003cf988/$FILE/monthly%20notif%20201303.pdf

 

AND:here are the ACTUAL lab reported confirmed cases.

http://www2.nphs.wales.nhs.uk:8080/CommunitySurveillanceDocs.nsf/3dc04669c9e1eaa880257062003b246b/38c4ee86b5fd701e80257b41003cdc52/$FILE/monthly%20lab%20201303.pdf

 

These two show a very different picture and are important to realize the difference.Lab confirmed cases are only 8 for March in the entire country.

Even if the "notifiable" accounts are real,  302 cases for an entire country in one month just isn't scary to me. shrug.gif

Anyone else wonder why there aren't more lab confirmed cases?

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#22 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 10:16 AM
 
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Sunn5 - you say "Try these REAL reports" and then post the exact same report I posted!  Which is the exact same report TaxiMom posted.

 

You and I both agree that the first report shows there are over 300 new notified cases this year.  The Independent article says that there are "100's" of new cases - which you and I can both see is accurate.

 

However when TaxiMom first posted the same report, she wrongly said that the report shows there are only 30 cases and not hundreds (and so the Independent are scare-mongering).  She is wrong and I find it irresponsible to misrepresent the facts to fit your agenda.  My only question is whether TaxiMom did this deliberately or not - but it seems odd that she could misread a simple report.

 

Essentially, she has twice made up two 'facts' in this thread, one of which is very easily proved wrong (her claim that the report shows there are 'only 30' reported cases- that's just not true.)

 

Her other claim was that 'most of those who have been infected were fully vaccinated'.  She has assumed that to fit her agenda - there is no evidence either way at this stage.  If I posted saying 'all of those who have been infected were unvaccinated' I bet you would challenge me (and rightly so).

 

 

 

The second report that you posted (which was also posted by TaxiMom in the original post) you have correctly identified as showing the Lab-confirmed measles results.  You (rightly) question why there is such a disparity between the number of notified cases and the number of lab-confirmed cases.  

 

To answer your question; a GP does not normally need to take a blood or saliva test to identify measles - measles is usually easy to identify from its physical symptoms.  If there is uncertainty, only then will the GP arrange for a lab test but this is not usually required. 

 

 

 

I appreciate that you might not find 800 new cases of measles in one country in a 3 and a half month period to be scary.  However, the vast majority of cases are in one area and it happens to be the area that I am from.  It has also been confirmed that a 25 year old man (with asthma) who suddenly died had caught measles (measles is the suspected cause of death but this is not yet determined).

 

 

 

To quickly address your other points; I agree that the paragraph concerning Ari Ne'eman's quote is offensive.

 

And regarding the American and Italian courts; there is a very big difference between a court of law making a judgement and something being scientifically proven.  In my job I have seen many judges make a decision which goes against scientific evidence.

 

 

 

I think it's probably important that I explain my motivation for being on this forum.  I'm a soon-to-be parent in the Swansea area who is somewhat distrustful of the National Health Service (in fact, trying to show that they have been negligent is part of my job).  I have been aware of the findings of the courts in America and Italy and, accordingly, felt that I need to research vaccination for myself.  One of the places my research has taken me is to this forum.  I came into this particular thread because its obviously relevant to me.

 

Whilst it is my own, personal belief that there probably is a link between some vaccinations and autism (and believe a scientific link will one day be found) I have been very put off the current anti-vaccine 'movement'  by the amount of misinformation on this forum (and others).  TaxiMom has made up two facts in this thread that anyone should have been able to see were made up, but no-one in here challenged her on them - that leads me to believe that this forum is more concerned with its own agenda than the truth.  This does not sit well with me.

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#23 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 10:25 AM
 
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This is not a debate board. Open a thread in the discussion area, not here. Read the posting guidelines.

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#24 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 10:29 AM
 
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30. 300. A difference of one zero. Why would anyone assume deceit, and not typo, is beyond me!! I would think a simple correction is all that is required. The lengthy rants puzzle me! Twice, now, there have been accusations of deliberate misrepresentation. I suggest we let tempers cool, and post more neutrally from this point on.
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#25 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 10:33 AM
 
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nia 82 - My apologies - I must confess that I had not read the posting guidelines.

 

I still think it is important to show that the 'facts' presented in this thread were false or assumed, however I'd have presented it in a less antagonistic manner had I checked the guidelines.

 

Won't happen again.

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#26 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 10:35 AM
 
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Pek64 - if you read the original post you can see it could not have been just a simple typo.

 

 

Anyway, maybe I should take this as my cue to leave this thread.

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#27 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 11:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dybil3 View Post

nia 82 - My apologies - I must confess that I had not read the posting guidelines.

 

I still think it is important to show that the 'facts' presented in this thread were false or assumed, however I'd have presented it in a less antagonistic manner had I checked the guidelines.

 

Won't happen again.

 

While I happen to agree with you, for better or worse, it is not permitted to correct facts in this section of the forum.  There is another section for discussion and debate. 


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#28 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 12:21 PM
 
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Anyway, maybe I should take this as my cue to leave this thread.

Oh, no, you should stay.  

 

Leaving will just make it just look like you wanted to fly in, make a bunch of personal and passively aggressive pro-vax  statements, and then fly off.

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To answer your question; a GP does not normally need to take a blood or saliva test to identify measles - measles is usually easy to identify from its physical symptoms.  If there is uncertainty, only then will the GP arrange for a lab test but this is not usually required.

 

Dybil, I do agree with you that you shouldn't HAVE to have lab confirmed as my entire family has had measles and I find it funny that many pro vax don't believe me as I didn't get it LAB confirmed (just my old GP in 70's who KNOWS what they look like, act like etc) and staunchly tell me that those are the only ones that should count.

 

I actually find that misinformation is one reason many become non vax... if she only wants to count lab confirmed cases, it is in her right however and not misinformation. All though the stats aren't out yet on non-vax to vax population who is contracting it.... it is just logical to assume with such a high Vax rate in the area that there will be a high percentage. I realized that it isn't proven yet.... but don't think of it as deliberate misinformation.

 

Mis information does make me upset though.... I find more of it on the other side, but know that it can/does happen on both sides. I try to not throw the baby out with the bath water though. What I am NOT sure of with regards to Vax is one reason I don't!

 

If an American court in the Vax world actually compensates for injury.... they are set up to "prove" that it was Vaccines that caused the illness outside of normal parameters a miracle. These courts are outside of normal judges(they aren't even called that), have totally different sets of rules, have to have STRONG evidence towards what happened so since they compensated-it means more to me. If you are in the UK, then you might not know how the system is set up.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html   If you do great, it is all about how we put weight on what we see.

 

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#30 of 68 Old 04-24-2013, 03:32 PM
 
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If there is incorrect information, to correct it is quite welcome; however it has to be in a polite and courteous manner. Accusations and claiming mal-intent is just not okay at all. I'm curious as to your accusation that the INV forum is full of misinformation? The parents that post here are quite well read and I'm not sure what you are pointing at. A civil discussion without rudeness is appreciated.

 

As for counting the cases I agree one doesn't need lab confirmation. My parents know they had measles without being lab confirmed. The symptoms are quite classic I'd say. I personally choose to vaccinate for measles, but not with the MMR. I do have access to a single jab in Europe.

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