hey - moms of older kids - do you think new moms today have it easier or harder than you did wrt vaccine decisions? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 33 Old 06-27-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My story:

 

My oldest is 17.  When I first looked into vaccine he was around 1 year (he was vaxxed at a year).  I started to look into vaccine because there had been a change in the schedule (added a second MMR) and I wanted to know why. I also wanted to know how common measles, mumps and rubella were.  The public health nurse who administered the vaccines could not answer.  My doctor could not answer.  I called the Canadian Pediatric Society and all they could say was the vaccine was safer than the disease, they could not give me prevalence figures.  

 

That was sort of that.  I had tried reasonably hard to get answers to basic questions, and health care providers had failed.  I decided I was not going to vax until I could get the answers, as I could not weigh the risks/benefits.  I then went about my life and did not give vaccines much thought. Oh, I would read articles and books occasionally, but nothing major.   I did not have the Internet, I am not sure it even existed in 1997.  I had another child in 98 - same deal.  Last baby in 2002 - the Internet did exist, but I was pretty comfortable with non-vaxxing by then.  I still got most info from print, and was on dial up until about 2007.  

 

In some ways I think I had it easier.  

 

The lack of Internet meant I couldn't research until my eyes glazed over.  The lack of Internet meant there really wasn't this hatred of non-vaxxers that we see now - there wasn't a medium in which to polarize and build people up into a nasty frenzy.  

 

I think parents now have more of an opportunity to make an informed choice, research laws, be activists if they choose - but I don't think they have it easier.  

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#2 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 05:21 AM
 
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I think being able to get info now is so much easier for parents who question it, but also leads to unnecessary fearmongering and needless scaring of parents, esp if they are reading msm media bs....and drs are much more apt to spout that bs too.  I also think drs are much more aware of how some parents can actually read and think for themselves, and that too, is a threat, which is combatted by msm spouting off more bs...and when a parent actually questions the research practices used, their questions are met with scoffing, ridicule, and dumbing-down.  You couldn't possibly understand all the scientific lingo used  or, I went to medical school for 7 yrs, i know everything--type of attitude.  

I think making a decision was easier in the past because there was not all the hype and fearmongering going on within the web, and a person actually had to have the library get the publications to review the research that was actually used, instead of sugar coated bs spouted off by drs and fearmongering websites or pharma funded sales propaganda.   The sales pitch nowadays is totally differnt than that of yesteryear too...there wasn't any back then, because the FCC didn't allow it.  Regs were lifted, and BAM! now we have all kinds of pharma ads.

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#3 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 08:45 AM
 
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I think we had it easier too. Definitely less fearmongering when my kids were little. Living where I do, choosing not to vaccinate was not considered aberrant, still isn't. It does appear that the climate against vax refusers is becoming more and more agressive and the attemps to make exemptions harder and harder to come by. I am grateful my children are older.

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#4 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 12:02 PM
 
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My oldest son was born Jan of 2000 and I think even back then it was easier to just say no and there wasn't any of the "you know all that crap on the Internet isn't true".

 

I guess they thought if you made that decision it was OK.... not sure.

 

Now I have an 8 year old and could sense a swing in attitude to my 2 year old it feels kinda nuts. Everywhere I go, the fight against it seems harder, but I also know more people who are choosing this path than ever before.

 

I still think that I would be making the same decision now as then but it didn't seem like such a big deal back in the day! People also weren't wishing my children death and dismemberment as punishment for my "selfish ways".


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#5 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 02:52 PM
 
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That depends which position you are in.

 

Our first child was born in 1981, and the second in 84.  All the research I did was done by going to a medical library, one hour away, painstakingly going through the medicus cumulus indexus, ordering articles..., and when not there, writing snail mail letters all around the world to places like NAPSAC in the USA which had some brilliant information, and Dr Robert Mendelsohn, who became a close friend, and Dr Tony Morris.  There were many people doing this sort of thing in the USA, but not where I live.

 

There was no-one to talk to here, and I read and researched until not only my eyes glazed over but I got out to people in this country, what information I had.  That started a deluge of requests for both information and help, which tossed me into two worlds:

 

1) that of information finding and helping parents get justice

 

2) that of being public enemy number one for the medical profession.

 

A lot was written about what I was doing - some of it supportive, but much of it sneering distain. 

 

The problem is when you put yourself into the public eye, and you're lonely to boot.... the pressure is much greater.  If you child gets sick and dies from something for which there is a vaccine, you're dead meat.

 

I've found it much easier since I went on-line in 2000, and particularly since I no longer have to go to the medical library to research.  It's also been easier to target who to give help to as well.

 

When I set up my personal website. www.beyondconformity.org.nz I made a decision from the start, which was that there would be no comment facility.  That stops all the septic dog-pilers from fawning over each other, while hurling abuse.  If I have something to say, I say it and don't give a rip what anyone thinks.  The reason for that is that my research is meticulous and the proof is in each blog. 

 

The other part of the OP's question is whether it's harder for the ordinary new mother.

 

That depends on the person. 

 

If the person is a dead fish floating down a river, then no, it's not hard until their child pays the price. 

 

If the person is a person swimming against the tide, who has done the research properly, nothing will matter to them.  They will have very strong convictions, and be armed with credible information.

 

The group who it is difficult for, is the person who doesn't want to vaccinate, but is ruled by their emotions, doesn't realise how little they know, and can have their convictions easily challenged because they haven't done due diligence at the beginning and kept their mouths shut, until they know what they are talking about. 

 

So those people don't appear to realise how much they need to know, not just about vaccines, but about the diseases AND about nutrition etc.

 

These are the people who need help to realise that they need to know more than they do. The problem is how to do that tactfully. But they shouldn't be spoonfed, even though that's usually what is wanted.  "Tell me the answer..." ... they need to see that it's important to "catch their own fish" and this is where difficulties can arise, particularly if people feel that the text-message, help-desk "entitlement" principle applies = "you know, you tell, it's my right, now".

 

So now I will use the word "you" generically.

 

The problem with that paradigm, is that when things get tough, and you land up with a child with serious issues and no-one to tell you what you feel entitled to know, your defences can be shattered, because you don't know how to "fish" yourself.

 

I know what that feels like becuase way back in 1981, when all alone, I had to teach myself to fish, or I would have sunk.

 

But 1981 wasn't the era of text messages, or an "entitlement" mindset.  Most people then knew how to use a Dewey system, and how to at least find ifnromation from the resources available.

 

So in that sense, it's hard to compare today, with 33 years ago.

 

Not only is  the technology radically different, but how people think is different and how people respond is different.

 

When I first started reading at Mothering 13 years ago, the calibre of discussion was very different as well. 

 

There was only one vaccination board, and people really wanted to get into the nitty gritty of issues.  I only had one interest which was vaccines, but then you were "encouraged" to participate in other forums as well, which I tried, to do, but couldn't do.  I don't "do" fluff, and to me other issues were a waste of my time, which has always been limited.

 

Yes, there was some flamethrowing here at the start in 2000, but that was more likely on other forums than vaccinations.  As time went on though, the flamethrowers arrived here in force, which presented problems since my natural tendency is to fight fire with fire :)  and I have foot in mouth disease blush.gif

 

I hardly every come here now, simply because  Mothering is now so large, and it's been hard to see where the people are, who want to learn to fish rather than  flamethrow or fling fluff.  I still haven't perfected the control of the FIM disease.

 

I've always believed that if you really want answers, you WILL find them, regardless of the difficulties others around you attempt throw at you....

 

typical Tuatara rant this :)

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#6 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 03:12 PM
 
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MT, I have always loved your rants. joy.gif Reading the Vaccination board when I joined in 2002 with two unvaxed young ones, I learned so much in a very short space of time. What residue fear I might have had around vaccines, quickly dissolved, and I arrived at the place of peace with my choice to keep my children vaccine-free. I am so grateful for the wisdom imparted by you and the other independent thinkers who posted back then.

 

The pro-vax lobby has really upped the anty, so I think it is much harder for young parents now to get to the place of peace with their decision. Parents today are bombarded with vaxganda to a far greater degree than us oldies were. You can't scare me with measles. Had it, and survived, thankyouverymuch.

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#7 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 03:26 PM
 
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I wonder why this is though.  These young mothers are much more au fait with IT than I am.

 

Is it because they are captured by addictive facile facebook, and spend all their time posting photos of the toast they are about to eat?

 

I guess I'm a dinosaur and don't understand why it is that young parents today feel the need to toe the party line, or dissolve in a blob like a jelly without enough gelatine.

 

Where I live, the only increase in vaxganda is phone text messaging, facebook, twitter and other stuff which to me is crap... but fits in perhaps with the modern mindset?

 

There has been no increase in newpapers or magazines though.  That's about the same.  i can't comment on TV because I don't have it dizzy.gif

 

So I find myself in a position perhaps where there is a .................................. generation gap.

 

I just don't get why young mothers have difficulty finding the backbone you and I had to get via hard slog;....

 

Call me stupid, because perhaps I am.

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#8 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 03:59 PM
 
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I do think it is in part due to modern social media. Yes, there is so much more information easily available today, and people are waking up. The mainstream media really has become irrelevant, and to those who see, it clearly a vehicle for the dissemination of propaganda in order for the elite to control the general population. It is the alternative media that has the most influence now, and the medium to which Bill Gates and his dirty tricks brigade have turned to to try and discredit the voices of dissent. (Very smart of you not to allow comments on your blog, we don't need any more 25 year old white males putting in their two penneth.)

 

I am not sure if it really is a generation gap, but that the fearmongering has being going on so long now that people really believe it. It is harder to pull the wool over our eyes, because we have experienced something different. My eldest is now 23, and having grown up with virtually no tv, and under my care,  thankfully she has not been programmed to fear disease.

 

[OT - is Ian still playing cricket? My DS, now 13, is a soccer player, and hoping to be a pro one day. He was has been accepted to our local pro club's academy, and was recently in Costa Rica for a tournament with the club, proudly unvaxed. The club requires the kids to be utd according to the CDC's schedule, but gladly accepts our exemption. It's a take it of leave him thing!]


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#9 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 04:37 PM
 
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Perhaps it's also that it's permeated the state education system to such a huge degree... but again, that's something we avoided by homeschooling from start to finish....

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[OT - is Ian still playing cricket? My DS, now 13, is a soccer player, and hoping to be a pro one day. He was has been accepted to our local pro club's academy, and was recently in Costa Rica for a tournament with the club, proudly unvaxed. The club requires the kids to be utd according to the CDC's schedule, but gladly accepts our exemption. It's a take it of leave him thing!]

 

He not only plays for NZ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/23063386 and http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/spcri/1723176529-cricket--black-caps-make-impact-on-county-scene

 

 

He also plays for Nottinghamshire http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2013/content/story/645887.html

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#10 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 04:53 PM
 
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You must be a very proud mama! 


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#11 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 04:59 PM
 
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I'm technically not invited to participate because I only have littles. Sheepish.gif I did want to chime in with a devil's-advocate take on parenting in the Information Age.

1. It's harder for doctors to lie to you. No more of this "I recently saw a child die of German measles" when all of that data is at our fingertips. No more "it's perfectly safe" when VAERS and VICP records are just a couple of clicks away.

2. It's harder for school officials to lie to you. No more withholding information about exemption rights when sites like NVICs make statutes readily available. No more telling you that you have to belong to a specific church or get a pastor's signature when you can easily find the truthful information.

3. Public policy-making is more transparent. I think it would have been a LOT harder to sneak in those Hep B requirements had the Internet and social media been better developed in 1999. Contrast that with today, when consumer pressure put a halt to Merck's state-by-state lobbying for Guardasil mandates. I really do think that Internet access helped that activism take place.

I guess that paraphrases what Kathy said, but I do find it *easier* not to be worrying constantly if I can trust what people are telling me. It's reassuring to know that I can cross-reference anything that raises an eyebrow.

Those are the three things I can immediately think of.

I can think of one thing that's *probably* harder, but you moms with more life experience can weigh in on this. The unfettered deregulation and marketing power of drug companies means more and more and more ways to crowd up the Schedule with more and more and more vaccines. Don't get me wrong. It's been building up since they gained liability protection in '86. But today, it's gotten out of control.

Now Merck can develop a vaccine against nose-picking, have its own employees conduct pseudo-scientific safety testing, and send its puppets to ACIP to get it on the Schedule. Then the T.V. commercials and market-disguised-as-journalism begin in full force. Parents get to hear about how nose-picking kills 36,000 Americans annually and declining the vaccine is mean and nasty and selfish. Then the lines about how parents today don't understand how dangerous nose-picking was in 1953. Then a "news story" about an unvaccinated kid in Neverland who shoved his finger too far up his nostril and convulsed and died instantly. (Boy oh boy. His parents sure learned THEIR lessons. From now on, they'll get ALL of the vaccines without any questions). Then the mandates, which health departments readily enact to protect their almighty federal enticements. Then the state health departments scolding parents and forcing them to explain their refusals so that the "experts" can "counter misinformation" with the appropriate government and industry-sponsored sales-pitch talking points. And then, and then, and then..... I've watched it all unfold too many times!

Back in the day,a serious disease was met with a serious vaccine. Now it's fat freakin' Pharma free-for-all. eyesroll.gif THAT is what makes it harder to be a parent in 2013.
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#12 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 05:37 PM
 
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I am an OLDer and now a new mom and I see things are now night and day different!

 

I find now, "new" (be it young or old) but 1st timers, are like they have had their brain removed - I use to remember (and I have talked about this to other OLDer mom friends who say the same things) we didn't (back in the day) just drink the kook-aid, we asked questions (lots of them!!) and now that seems to be a lost art, and I just don't get it!

 

We use to question our parents and our GRANDPARENTS, we talked and got answers from our Dr.s we didn't just take it all at point blank value - and I see so many when you ask them a question (not just vac) and they seems so brainwashed (it really is the only word I can think to describe it) it's so much - well the Dr says.... or "they" say X, Y, Z it MUST be - I do feel media

scars play a huge factor but I also think we (as a society) like having our thinking done for us, makes life easier for so many. I think the dumbing down of society play into the scare factor and thus if they say you need this shot - you rush out and get it- no questions asked.


 

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#13 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We use to question our parents and our GRANDPARENTS, we talked and got answers from our Dr.s we didn't just take it all at point blank value - and I see so many when you ask them a question (not just vac) and they seems so brainwashed (it really is the only word I can think to describe it) it's so much - well the Dr says.... or "they" say X, Y, Z it MUST be - I do feel media

scars play a huge factor but I also think we (as a society) like having our thinking done for us, makes life easier for so many. I think the dumbing down of society play into the scare factor and thus if they say you need this shot - you rush out and get it- no questions asked.

Some of it may come down to information overload.  The internet plays a huge part in this.  I have noticed that people of all ages are a little more inclined these days to throw up their hands and just do as xyz says because the amount of information is overwhelming. 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#14 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:07 PM
 
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I am an OLDer and now a new mom and I see things are now night and day different!

 

I find now, "new" (be it young or old) but 1st timers, are like they have had their brain removed - I use to remember (and I have talked about this to other OLDer mom friends who say the same things) we didn't (back in the day) just drink the kook-aid, we asked questions (lots of them!!) and now that seems to be a lost art, and I just don't get it!

 

We use to question our parents and our GRANDPARENTS, we talked and got answers from our Dr.s we didn't just take it all at point blank value - and I see so many when you ask them a question (not just vac) and they seems so brainwashed (it really is the only word I can think to describe it) it's so much - well the Dr says.... or "they" say X, Y, Z it MUST be - I do feel media

scars play a huge factor but I also think we (as a society) like having our thinking done for us, makes life easier for so many. I think the dumbing down of society play into the scare factor and thus if they say you need this shot - you rush out and get it- no questions asked.

 do you think it's part an assumption that we live in such a wondrous IT age, that because everything we handle "looks" good, all the experts therefore, must be "right" and.....

 

even vaccines must be the "right" thing?


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#15 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:08 PM
 
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I think the pressure to be the perfect mom and keep your child 100% safe is a lot more on moms now than it used to be. I think even 12 years back when my first dd was born it was bad but now with my third it is so much worse. We have a very hard time accepting that life has risks these days ,that not every danger can be avoided. When I was a child we would sleep in the back seat of the car on night trips,no seat belts.

I think the whole big brother computer records makes moms paranoid to,your doc. knows if you haven't vaccinated,before it was all paper records and didn't pop up on a screen every time you went for a check up.

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#16 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:10 PM
 
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Some of it may come down to information overload.  The internet plays a huge part in this.  I have noticed that people of all ages are a little more inclined these days to throw up their hands and just do as xyz says because the amount of information is overwhelming. 

 

Even back in the "old" days, there was information overload, of a different sort.  The card index system of Dewey could be incredible intimidating.

 

Pubmed is so much easier than Cumulus medicus indexus.  I'd walk into this big room, and have to find a book with the right word.  Then I'd have to line up a whole lot of books - sometimes ten or more thicker than the thickest telephone directories, with print even smaller.

 

it was truly like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

today, that needle is so much easier to find because good search engines eliminate a lot of the dross.

 

You just have to know the right word to look up.  But that applied back then, just as much as it does today.

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#17 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:13 PM
 
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I think the pressure to be the perfect mom and keep your child 100% safe is a lot more on moms now than it used to be. I think even 12 years back when my first dd was born it was bad but now with my third it is so much worse. We have a very hard time accepting that life has risks these days ,that not every danger can be avoided. When I was a child we would sleep in the back seat of the car on night trips,no seat belts.

I think the whole big brother computer records makes moms paranoid to,your doc. knows if you haven't vaccinated,before it was all paper records and didn't pop up on a screen every time you went for a check up.

 

What some of us called the "bubblewrapped baby" syndrome.

 

I read an article somewhere last year, penned by a paediatrician who said something like, "We have to teach parents that getting their kids out into nature is important for them."

 

goodvibes.gifthe spirit of slap came upon me, and the carnal me growled and felt like snarling through clenched teeth, the question, "Just how do you think it got to the point where parents are now afraid to let their kids climb a tree....."


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#18 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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1. It's harder for doctors to lie to you. No more of this "I recently saw a child die of German measles" when all of that data is at our fingertips. No more "it's perfectly safe" when VAERS and VICP records are just a couple of clicks away.  You know, I cannot ever remember a doctor from yesteryear telling me a child died of German measles (or anything else, for that matter). I do remember a doctor (1999) urging me to consider DTaP, as whooping cough was nasty.  I did consider what he said, and part of the reason I did consider it is because he did not try and tell me rubella was a nightmare.  That would have made him lose credibility in my eyes.    I think doctors from yesteryear actually did live through some diseases and know that not all diseases we vax for are scary.  The issue with doctors today is many have  never  seen the diseases they are urging people to vaccinate for - they have little life experience to back up what they are urging.  It is easy to build a disease into something scary if you haven't seen it.   I also think kids today are a little sicker than they were in the past - primarily with allergies and asthma.  Doctors in the past thought most kids would come through things just fine, now they might not be so sure due to chronic health issues in children :(   Obviously, this is all speculative on my part, but it is what I suspect.  
  

2. It's harder for school officials to lie to you. No more withholding information about exemption rights when sites like NVICs make statutes readily available. No more telling you that you have to belong to a specific church or get a pastor's signature when you can easily find the truthful information.  Absolutely true.  



 
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#19 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:16 PM
 
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I'm technically not invited to participate because I only have littles. Sheepish.gif I did want to chime in with a devil's-advocate take on parenting in the Information Age.

1. It's harder for doctors to lie to you. No more of this "I recently saw a child die of German measles" when all of that data is at our fingertips. No more "it's perfectly safe" when VAERS and VICP records are just a couple of clicks away.

2. It's harder for school officials to lie to you. No more withholding information about exemption rights when sites like NVICs make statutes readily available. No more telling you that you have to belong to a specific church or get a pastor's signature when you can easily find the truthful information.

3. Public policy-making is more transparent. I think it would have been a LOT harder to sneak in those Hep B requirements had the Internet and social media been better developed in 1999. Contrast that with today, when consumer pressure put a halt to Merck's state-by-state lobbying for Guardasil mandates. I really do think that Internet access helped that activism take place.

I guess that paraphrases what Kathy said, but I do find it *easier* not to be worrying constantly if I can trust what people are telling me. It's reassuring to know that I can cross-reference anything that raises an eyebrow.

Those are the three things I can immediately think of.

I can think of one thing that's *probably* harder, but you moms with more life experience can weigh in on this. The unfettered deregulation and marketing power of drug companies means more and more and more ways to crowd up the Schedule with more and more and more vaccines. Don't get me wrong. It's been building up since they gained liability protection in '86. But today, it's gotten out of control.

Now Merck can develop a vaccine against nose-picking, have its own employees conduct pseudo-scientific safety testing, and send its puppets to ACIP to get it on the Schedule. Then the T.V. commercials and market-disguised-as-journalism begin in full force. Parents get to hear about how nose-picking kills 36,000 Americans annually and declining the vaccine is mean and nasty and selfish. Then the lines about how parents today don't understand how dangerous nose-picking was in 1953. Then a "news story" about an unvaccinated kid in Neverland who shoved his finger too far up his nostril and convulsed and died instantly. (Boy oh boy. His parents sure learned THEIR lessons. From now on, they'll get ALL of the vaccines without any questions). Then the mandates, which health departments readily enact to protect their almighty federal enticements. Then the state health departments scolding parents and forcing them to explain their refusals so that the "experts" can "counter misinformation" with the appropriate government and industry-sponsored sales-pitch talking points. And then, and then, and then..... I've watched it all unfold too many times!

Back in the day,a serious disease was met with a serious vaccine. Now it's fat freakin' Pharma free-for-all. eyesroll.gif THAT is what makes it harder to be a parent in 2013.

 

But shouldn't that very fact, make parents alert to the fact that all is not what is seems to be?  That perhaps what seems real is a veneer, or even a mirage?

 

Aren't they asking simple questions like, "Well how come grandma at 96 is still going strong and picking her nose at every opportunity?"

 

"She didn't need all these vaccines, so why should we take big-pharma's word for it?"

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#20 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Even back in the "old" days, there was information overload, of a different sort.  The card index system of Dewey could be incredible intimidating.

 

 

I think the difference is in the past you had to go looking for information (which was not always easy).  It was a sort of voluntary information overload.  

 

 

Now it is in your face, and it is hard to escape even if you want to.   

 

ETA:  I am not trying to downplay the amount of research you or anyone else did.  It is very clear you did a lot and you made a very informed decision.  I, alas, did not do a lot of research when my older children were young.  I knew a decent amount (more than most parents) but no where near as much as I know now about vaccines, diseases, etc.   I did not even feel called to research- the doc's had not made their case, and that was good enough for me to stop vaxxing.  I was fairly naturally minded anyways.   Contrast that to mothers today - I think many feel they have to  (not  "want to") research til they are blue in the face to justify not vaccinating.   I may be wrong - if any younger moms want to address this, I am all ears.  


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#21 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:21 PM
 
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@kathymuggle.

 

Kids are a whole heap sicker today, than in the past. 

 

Even the old time doctors will scratch their heads when describing the average paediatric patient in 1940 or 50 and the average paediatric patient today.

 

to me it's a combo hit.

 

Lousy birth and formula starts the slide, vaccines are the first monkey wrench, then toss in serial body flora napalming anitbiotics, and parents who dont' realise that the constant use of tylenol for every ailment under the sun, constantly disables the inate immune system and creates allergies.

 

it's all there in the medical literature yet, paediatricians say very little about that.  come to think of it, if they did, their incomes would drop, so they toe the party line, because that makes greater economic sense...

 

sorry for the OT veer...


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#22 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:28 PM
 
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I think the difference is in the past you had to go looking for information (which was not always easy).  It was a sort of voluntary information overload.  

 

 

Now it is in your face, and it is hard to escape even if you want to.   

 

I don't find it hard.. duck.gif

 

No-one rents space in my brain...

 

Listening is a choice, and so is learning.... and allowing others to rent brain space is also a choice.....

 

the people who allow information to wipe their faces...., should look to themselves, because the reason might be a fundamental insecurity in their ability to make choices, which might also stem from the fact that the foundational concepts of convictions are missing....

 

a problem for which there is a solution... knit.gif  convictions are like knitting.  a garment made stitch by stitch to construct a whole....

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#23 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One last quick point, then I have to get off (nice discussion!)

 

In the past when I said something about vaccines or diseases, people, including doctors, would look at me with a bit of respect -  it was clear to them I knew what I was talking about/asking intelligent questions.

 

In recent years, if I  open my mouth about vaccines or diseases, people go off on a tangent about autism and say I got my info from natural news and Dr. Google.  It is annoying!  

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#24 of 33 Old 06-28-2013, 06:51 PM
 
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One last quick point, then I have to get off (nice discussion!)

 

In the past when I said something about vaccines or diseases, people, including doctors, would look at me with a bit of respect -  it was clear to them I knew what I was talking about/asking intelligent questions.

 

In recent years, if I  open my mouth about vaccines or diseases, people go off on a tangent about autism and say I got my info from natural news and Dr. Google.  It is annoying!  

 

That's why the key is to ask questions which can't possible be construed as anything other than pubmed driven. 

 

If a doctor so much as mentions autism, natural news and Dr Google, I ask straight away, "WHERE do you get your information from?"  If they say, "The Health Department". I ask, "and where do THEY get THEIR information from?"  and if they say, "The medical literature" then I say, "Okay, you show me your stuff from the medical literature and then I'll show you my full text medical articles.  We can swap, and then have an informed discussion, huh?

 

Usually they run a mile.

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#25 of 33 Old 06-29-2013, 10:47 AM
 
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 do you think it's part an assumption that we live in such a wondrous IT age, that because everything we handle "looks" good, all the experts therefore, must be "right" and.....

 

even vaccines must be the "right" thing?

ah, YES!!!!!!!!! to all

 

awhile back someone posted on another thread (sorry I can't find it now) and it was about really the NEW "normal" and it listed a whole bunch of things that NOW are normal for children vs years ago (illness and reactions after vaccines, etc) - does someone know what I am referring to? it was only a few months ago- I really found it was spot on-it was posted in this section and I think it really nails so much of this - illness TODAY is so tied into the vacs-IMO

 

I had talked about the list IRL with other older moms and we all said none of our kids were like that (back in the day-nothing even close) - wish I could find it - sorry

 

 

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@kathymuggle.

 

Kids are a whole heap sicker today, than in the past. 

 

Even the old time doctors will scratch their heads when describing the average paediatric patient in 1940 or 50 and the average paediatric patient today.

 

to me it's a combo hit.

 

Lousy birth and formula starts the slide, vaccines are the first monkey wrench, then toss in serial body flora napalming anitbiotics, and parents who dont' realise that the constant use of tylenol for every ailment under the sun, constantly disables the inate immune system and creates allergies.

 

it's all there in the medical literature yet, paediatricians say very little about that.  come to think of it, if they did, their incomes would drop, so they toe the party line, because that makes greater economic sense...

 

sorry for the OT veer...

 
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I find now, "new" (be it young or old) but 1st timers, are like they have had their brain removed - I use to remember (and I have talked about this to other OLDer mom friends who say the same things) we didn't (back in the day) just drink the kook-aid, we asked questions (lots of them!!) and now that seems to be a lost art, and I just don't get it!

I do see this alot with my friends, but definitely not the case for me - I've been chastized many times FOR questioning my elders and doctors and "how could I?"...it gets annoying.  I do things very different from my parents and grandparents, and while I love my family, it does give me this sense of being removed from it all like I'm on the outside looking in and don't quite fit in.  I was on the kook-aid path big time - animal science major with a pre-vet concentration (basically pre-med, just more species) at a top medically focused school.  I ate it up, argued with vegans daily over how much we humans *needed* cow milk (god I really really said some stupid things back then!), and didn't think poorly of pharmaceuticals.  And yet I declined my first vaccine at the age of about 16 - guardasil.  It was more my fear of needles, BUT, I had started taking Anat & Phys in high school, and very clearly remember the pediatrician explaining that it was a vaccine to prevent cancer...My brain jumped up and said hold the phone, that contradicts everything I've been learning thus far, just say no! And I did.  Of course it took me another 12 years before I started to really look at the bigger picture, and by the time DD was born I was overwhelmed, and it wasn't until she had some nasty reactions that I snapped out of my funk, got down to business and stood my ground.  I had the info in my head, I just needed to stand up for my LO.  I'm pretty wimpy about things like that, until the momma bear in me woke up and I found my voice!

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goodvibes.gifthe spirit of slap came upon me

LOL love that.  It's sad the dirty looks I get when my daughter walks around with cut up knees, dirty cheeks, mosquito bites and oh no - a black eye from tripping and falling on some toy in the yard!  Like letting kids play and learn their own limits by testing and getting hurt is somethoww failing them??

 

As for the OP, I think back to when I was a kid (bc my LO is still a wee one at 19mos) and there was far less media hype.  I've all but stopped subscribing to magazines because every other page is an ad for a new drug.  Every tv channel is full of vaccine and pharmaceutical commercials (we pretty much stick with disney jr at this point - I have to feed the disney-holic in me and my child!).  Today everything is a major event, outbreak, breaking news....nothing can ever just be.  In talking with my mother, she couldn't believe the number of new vaccines and boosters.  Thankfully she's been supportive of my decisions. 

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#27 of 33 Old 07-01-2013, 12:57 AM
 
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But shouldn't that very fact, make parents alert to the fact that all is not what is seems to be?  That perhaps what seems real is a veneer, or even a mirage?

 

Aren't they asking simple questions like, "Well how come grandma at 96 is still going strong and picking her nose at every opportunity?"

 

"She didn't need all these vaccines, so why should we take big-pharma's word for it?"

 

I am a new mom, but in my mid-30's, so not exactly a young mom.  Weighing in anyway!

 

I would THINK people would be asking these questions, but they aren't thinking along these lines.  Instead, they are thinking, "Boy, Grandma sure is lucky to be alive.  Soooo many people died back then of nose picking.  It sure is a good thing we have that vaccine now so we don't have to worry."

 

As I wade through studies/blogs/discussions, etc., my default is "What have humans done throughout history?  How did they handle this problem 100, 500, a 1000 years ago?  If humans have been doing something, say cosleeping, for thousands and thousands of years, it might be a good idea.  I explained my reasoning to someone once who was shocked!  Their image of 1000 years ago was WAAAY different than mine.  They saw it as scary, dangerous, and deadly.  "So many people died back then.  And they didn't live very long.  Why would you do something like they did?"

 

I definitely agree that there is an information overload today.  I'm an information junkie and I'm overloaded. . . There is so much info coming in about so many different topics: environment, education, food, politics, medicine, etc.  A fair amount of it is depressing and makes you feel hopeless - so people just give up thinking about.  Even worse, it is a constant, constant contradiction.  I was reading a parenting magazine just today and there was a page about milk.  In one blurb, "nutritionists" (I use this term loosely!) gave recommendations of how much cow's milk children NEED each day.  They said that if the child is overweight or obese, to give reduced fat or skim milk instead. Then, ON THE SAME PAGE, there was a snippet from a research study saying that children who drink low fat or skim milk tend to weigh MORE than those that drink whole milk.  They wondered a bit why (Duh! They are just NOW figuring this out??) and suggested that maybe kids who are overweight/obese should drink whole milk instead of low/no fat.  A lot of people just don't want to know anymore - they take the path of least resistance.


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#28 of 33 Old 07-01-2013, 02:29 PM
 
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truedat.gif

 

So few people today have any realisation of history.  As people walk through major US cities, they have little idea that in the days of no sanitation, pigs ran free in cities as garbage removers.  the hoity-toity got shirty because the pigs dug wallows in public parks, but without those pigs to remove human detritus of ALL kinds. humans would have been worse off.

 

The biggest problem young mums like you will have is "cognitive dissonance" both from the pro vaccine parents and from pro vaccine doctors.  they will accuse you of cognitive dissonance, but people often point the finger at others thoughtlessly.

 

Moms who are undecided are much more open-minded towards available medical information which questions vaccines - even if their doctors don't show it to them. 

 

But mothers who have already vaccinated, have a strong psychological need to rationalize their decision as having been correct.  After all, who could live in such an "advanced" world, and get such a matter of importance, wrong?  And since most parents have gone through the same education system, and agree with the experts (why???)  the experts and other parents must surely must be right.  It's the lemming syndrome. 

 

And once a decision has been made that can't be taken back, your brain tricks you into not assessing any more information correctly.

 

Behavioural scientists know this, and have written about it, but for some reason, people ignore it. 

 

Worst, the best of scientists can't ignore this, and medical history proves that.  Which is why when I put a link up like this one http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2011summer/article7.html  so many parents have trouble processing it.  They say, "whooaarrrr, but they know everything!"  duh.gif .  Well, this immunologist has just told you they know pretty much nothing.  So what will you do with that information in the context of these question?

 

1) If immunologists don't know what an immune system is really doing, what do they SAY a vaccine DOES in the immune system about which they know almost nothing?

 

2) How then, can immunologists say, "A vaccine can't do that!" when they don't even know what it can or does do?

 

3) How can immunologists possible say that a vaccine is the "only" way to protect someone against a disease, when they actually can't tell you HOW the body handles infections, and all the other ways (apart from endstage antibodies) that the immune system does that?

 

4) given that they KNOW that the immune system of baby animals is radically different from adult animals, why do immunologists consider that a baby's immune system is 'defective'?

 

5) Now that we know that human breast milk, stands in the breach for the baby, while the baby's immune system systematically learns what is safe, what is not, what is self and what is not, how does that learning programme influence how an immunologist thinks?

 

(I'll answer that one for fun.  it doesn't.  Because immunologist's don't think about validity of function.  They only think about changing what is, to what they want it to be.)

 

6) Given all the above, how can they possibly know that the radically increasing number of vaccines given to babies, who had a different immune system from adults, ISN'T behind the huge increase in chronic disease, and the many conditions we see in children which are DIRECTLY CAUSED by the fact that these baby's immune systems have gone haywire?

 

7) Who has a handle of the whole, bigger picture?  Answer.  No-one.

 

Not even me.  But I can see one thing from the huge amount of medical literature that there is.

 

The proportion of children today who have conditions caused by the wrecking of the very immune system about which they know little is astonishly high in comparison to 1960, and the reason isn't TV!  It's not crap food.  It's not that nuclear power station you live near.  It's not just toxins.  all those things will contribute, and will contribute ESPECIALLY... if something, right at the start, has been trip-wired and is malfunction.

 

If you mess with a neonatal immune system then e-v-e-r-y-t-h-I-n-g else downstream doesn't work as well, and things you might have shrugged off, can hit you like a bomb.  To me, everything from conception to two years is precious, and I believe that if you mess with that, you pay a huge price. and I believe that, because I've spent 30 years studying the medical literature, and even though they know so little, in the last 15 years, what they have discovered will one day make immunologists consider some of what they have done to be criminal activity.

 

Some are now using those words (criminal overuse and abuse) with regard to antibiotics, and I believe that one day, vaccines will be put alongside antibiotics.

 

Back to topic...

 

So once a person has vaccinated, be they a doctor or a parent.... they aren't going to accept information that proves their decision making process was flawed, or that the current paradigm is incorrect because of false assumptions and the black holes in it... If they accepted that, it would make them feel that you're saying they are stupid, even when they aren't.  Not knowing what you don't know, doesn't make you stupid.  Perhaps assuming that everything is known a stupid assumption to think.  But it's understandable because we no longer walk on streets of mud, walk miles to collect dirty water, or dig holes to poo in.  "Real life" today, is a rare commodity.  Most things today, come from a "flat screen"....

 

The medical profession also screws around this concept of cognitive dissonance to try to back non vaccinators into a corner. 

 

Once a doctor has chosen a career in the pharmaceutical industry (and lets be honest, being a paediatrician is not a calling - it's a career) they are unlikely to be objective about the industry's goals and ethics.

 

You just have to sit down and look at all the subtle pushing being achieved by the freebie pin-ups in a doctors waiting room, to know this is a business, not a calling.  The bills have to be paid.

 

They use the principles of cognitive dissonance to be condescending and insulting towards parents who don't want to vaccinate by saying, "What medical school did you go to?  Don't you realise we're the ones who studied immunology ROTFLMAO.gifirked.gif and we know what we're doing because we spent half a million dollars on student loans to insert alphabet soup after our names?? How dare you insult our intelligence!  What did you say your IQ was?."

 

And guess what?  Those people have to pay those huge student loans off. 

 

That money builds up before they even get to KNOW whether or not the job is for them.  And if they get an epiphany and realise it's not for them, what then?  They aren't "fit" for any other job if they turn their backs on the medical system, and they have a millstone around their necks.  At least half a million in student loans.

 

So they have any objectivity neutralise by the very fact that the job they are trained in, is the only job whereby they can pay back that overdraft.  

 

How many people here, realise that in 1920, doctors didn't go to medical school?  They went to about five lectures, bought a degree, and worked along side older doctors with no debt. 

 

If they wanted a different job, they walked out and got one. 

 

Most of the so-called "famous" doctors who were involved in polio had NO FORMAL medical education at all. And... there was no huge pharmaceutical industry either....  That can be verified in a book by J.R. Paul called A History of Poliomyelitis which was published by Yale University in 1971.  It takes pride of place in my bookcase.  And has no hesitation in calling the treatment of polio, barbaric, cruel, inhumane etc.  There are many other revelations in that book which would make people who think the world has always been like it is in 2013, vomit in disgust.

 

So doctors today, with huge loans to repay have no other way to repay them, than to stick with what they know, so they put their backs to the wall, toe the official line, only read what they are told to read, and fight against non-conformists, in sheer self defence.. Once they've paid their loan off, they fight to justify the fact that they stayed there to pay their loan off. 

 

If they are hospital doctors and have climbed the hierarchy of success, whereas once they were being verbally abused and overworked by senior doctors, now they are doing the same to junior doctors... and guess what?  Most of them like it.  It's pay-back.  It's human nature. 

 

So most of these doctors happily tell parents that because these stupid parents weren't bright enough, or didn't want to go through the same crazy medical education (brainwashing) system, they don't have the brain to understand medical information.  "Trust us, we know what we're doing". 

 

Yet when you take a lot of this information to them, they never knew it was there, haven't read it, and half the time, when they do read it, they don't understand it.  Why don't they understand it?  Because... because they've not systematically looked, over a period of time, and collected a lot of their own information, keeping it in context. 

 

If you hand to doctor say, five medical articles, is like taking five pieces out of a one thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, refusing to even show them the picture, and saying to them, "now understand that in the context of pregnancy, birth, to death.  Most of them just blink. and say, " Oh, but you've taken this out of context, and misinterpreted it."  (they secretely think, "There has to be a place in the dogma that explains these anomalies")  And it's not even worth them trying to understand it, because the amount of time needed to study and toss out the junk from their brains, is huge.  worse, if they did understand it, and saw that you were right, what sort of position does that put them in?  You can't read it all and do nothing.  You either reject it in self- preservation, or you accept it, which might mean you have to make a stand.

 

Which means, that any medical professional then faces the abuse that we do.  How many will do that?

 

Back to people.  People who have not vaccinated their children are much more able to be objectively because their decision is reversible, if they wish. 

 

They have no psychological need to manipulate the available information.  What does the average parent, who choses NOT to vaccinate have to GAIN? 

 

Nothing. 

 

They reap the hatred of society - witness face book septics who dog-pile, verbally abuse and bully anyone who dares even suggest issues with vaccines.  Read the blogs which doctors who think they are "skeptics", write.  Why would anyone willingly want that kind of abuse hurled at them?  People like me, stick to it, because we've learned enough to know that we are right, therefore we are willing to take the absolute minority stand, because we know what we know, and that what we know has more truth to it, than the immunologist who won't tell parents that actually, they know almost nothing about the immune system. http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2011summer/article7.html

 

HOWEVER, people who HAVE injected toxic substances into their precious babies will have a strong need to believe that these injections are not toxic, and have some form of benefit.  That's often what is behind public flaming.  The psychological need to justify the decision they've already made, completely controls how they approach the evidence. 

 

If the pro vaccine who pack attack on facebook, were that confident in their choices, they wouldn't bother to get so aggressive towards those who disagree. We wouldn't bother to try to correct someone who says that the sun never rises each morning.....  Justifying their decision, (and intelligence) is one driving force why some pro vaccine attack those won't vaccinate, and bring in the "group attack" method.  They use group attack on facebook, because that makes them feel good about attacking.  After all, the majority must be right.   I just watch, laugh and don't participate, because I don't' give a rip about what they think.  They don't "know".

 

I say all this, because it's important for young mothers to think about the reasons why they will face the public opposition they face.  Your opposition isn't out there, isn't because the pro-vaccine are right.  But to know whether YOU are right or not, YOU have to do the study.  YOU have to know why you are taking a position which will expose you to a level of public societal abuse, which would never be allowed for in other social, religious of educational situations.

 

The very people who legislate against "hate speech" and bullying in other social circumstances, are prepared to drop all their supposed "principles" when it comes to non-vaccinators. 

 

In order to cope with people like this, you must be wise, educate and strategise.  Otherwise, you will find yourself in a situation where when heat is applied, you will wilt.

 

You've got to get to a point where you KNOW the facts (or lack of).  You KNOW what you know, and you don't give a rip what anyone else thinks, because you know that you've made an informed choice based on the truth, not some  manufactured choice based on hysterical fear of disease and  social intimidation tactics. You need to know enough about WHY others attack you, AND the medical literature, so that you can stand up and defend yourself.

 

faint.gif.................Sermon over for the day.   REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif


“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#29 of 33 Old 07-01-2013, 09:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post

 

It takes pride of place in my bookcase.

Well, I must say that YOUR two books take pride of place in MY bookcase, and I have offered to lend them to several different moms and moms-to-be.

In the summer of 2009 while pregnant with my second child, I read both of your books from beginning to end. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with others.

Here are two reasons why I appreciate your work:

 


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#30 of 33 Old 07-08-2013, 03:12 PM
 
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I started researching vaccines in the late 90's (ok, 1999. I was 19.) My oldest was born in 2002 and I had done enough research to be anti-vax by then so luckily my kids have no vaccines (and I have kept researching over the past 14 years because I find it fascinating that with all the information available,  people still vaccinate. I have never found anything in 14 years to make me question my decision.) As the kids have grown and I have seen their health in comparison to their peers I know I definitely made the right decision. I think it's harder for people "new" to research because they still question themselves and maybe haven't personally seen the differences yet...

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