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Old 07-23-2013, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm trying to set some personal boundaries about how, if at all, to help the many academic researchers, pollsters, and reporters who come to MDC to learn more about us.

For the most part, I won't be participating.

First, please please PLEASE remember that these people, even the most pleasant and polite ones, are not your friends. I'm sure there are some ethical ones out there, but you'll never learn either way just by reading their posts.

Some years ago, a reporter, (I say "reporter" these days because true journalists are hard to find), interviewed a friend of mine. He was young, good-looking, and extremely charming. She thought that because they "clicked" during the interview, the story would be well-written and give her a fair say. In the end, it was a mean, mean, nasty story that basically blamed her activism for recent pertussis outbreaks, (have these people read a single SENTENCE about the pertussis outbreaks not being caused by the unvaxxed??? banghead.gif), and pretty much butchered her position. These people are not your friends. They lord power over you because they control the tone and spin of what they write.

Second, academics are not your friends. They can control and even spin their studies into the message that they wish to convey. Only in rare, if any, circumstances will they publish something that does NOT have a pro-compliance agenda.

There is study after study after study about how best to manipulate us. Expect countless others. I, for one, refuse to help facilitate this objective. If you're tempted to help a researcher, dig, dig, dig for information. What are the funding sources? What is the hypothesis? Specifically which contributions does the researcher hope to make to the broader body of knowledge on vaccines?

With polls, remember that MDC members cannot produce very generalizable results. At most, you can conclude that X% of MDC users on a remote sub-forum believe Y. A pollster might be able to generalize to other forums.....without realizing that a lot of the same people belong to them with different user names. Unless Gallop or Harris is conducting it, be leery of polls. Rarely do they produce scientific results. It will also depend on who is polling. I'm not going to help the CDC, for example.

Now there are occasions in which I'd participate. I would help with a randomized public opinion poll from a reputable pollster on vaccine-related policy. I would help the right scientists solve the mystery of, for example, causality in vaccine reactions.

Have these past couple of weeks taught you anything? Under what circumstances, my dear little lab rats winky.gif, will you be responding to the many reporters, researchers, and pollsters who come to MDC?

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:21 AM
 
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Have these past couple of weeks taught you anything? Under what circumstances, my dear little lab rats winky.gif, will you be responding to the many reporters, researchers, and pollsters who come to MDC?

I think the only general question I would consider answering would be, "have your children suffered documented, MD-diagnosed adverse reactions to vaccines?"

No, scratch that.

If the only way they can figure out that more people are suffering adverse reactions than they realize is by setting up a poll in Internet parenting forums, then the system is never going to be fixed.

One recent thread was a clear example of someone wanting to publish something pushing their own agenda, and happily twisting results of a very unscientific poll to do so; it also demonstrated how quickly someone pretending to be objective can turn vicious when challenged.

It's good to get a dose of reality by a real-life example of how the motives and MO of such posters are very different from how they initially portray themselves, but it can be very disturbing, too.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:55 AM
 
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notes2.gif

 

I will read and write more later.  I had been thinking of starting a similar thread, and now I do not have to ;)

 

I have typically participated in surveys and such, but recent events on the discussion and debate board as well as reading the pm's on the topic has got me thinking that I need to revisit this decision.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 07-24-2013, 02:24 PM
 
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My tongue is swollen from UAV refrains. I'll leave a duh.gif and and banghead.gif and even a bit of Cuss.gifand let you fill in the blanks on my thoughts on the last few threads that have been going on around here. I am seriously considering taking a break.

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Old 07-24-2013, 03:33 PM
 
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My tongue is swollen from UAV refrains. I'll leave a duh.gif and and banghead.gif and even a bit of Cuss.gifand let you fill in the blanks on my thoughts on the last few threads that have been going on around here. I am seriously considering taking a break.


I wonder if that is their true goal. Stir the pot, tick off the sel/del/no vax members.....MDC is a great place to find parents who question vaccines. That's probably why we see this happen from time to time. Take a break if you need to--we've all been there!!


 
 
 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:19 PM
 
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I didn't participate.

 

I look on all impersonal, random requests for my personal information with a wary eye. I don't care if it's an internet poll or someone cold calling me to "ask me a few questions." Unless I get solid, verifiable, detailed info from the party first that establishes who they are (with legit contact details), what they are looking for, the purposes of their "research," to what uses it will be put, and why they are asking, then I refuse. It's been amusing when telephone "researchers" take offence to MY questions and requests for all of their information before agreeing to participate. Once I get satisfactory answers, I may still decline to participate. It's called informed consent.

 

Anyone who cannot be open and provide the above info, is IMO, not worth my time. I've written consent forms for my own research, approved by my former department. It's not rocket science to preface an internet poll with an explanation providing the basics outlined above. It's about credibility and ethics, right?


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Old 07-25-2013, 01:36 AM
 
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I wrote this a bit back on another thread asking for  info: New: Think Art of War by Sun Tzu....

pp. 14-16

"Warfare is the Tao of deception. If Pharma isn't deceptive.... who is!
Thus:
Although you are capable, display incapability.
When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity.
When your objective is nearby, make it appear distant; when distant, create the illusion of being nearby.
Display profits to entice them.
Create disorder in their forces and take them.
If they are substantial, prepare for them.
If they are strong, avoid them.
If they are angry, perturb them. Don't let them do this
Be deferential to foster their arrogance.
If they are rested, force them to exert themselves. Think of this anytime you start to feel a fight coming on.
If they are united, cause them to be separated. They can do this by claiming we attack in packs as well...
Attack where they are unprepared...."
 

From my other post:

I have to admit that every month when someone comes to this board to ask for participation in a "poll" I get all sick inside. headscratch.gif I can't figure out why they keep coming here.

 

  I was reading a book not that long ago that was talking about how some people in power actually devised a way to ask their enemies the best way to destroy them by making them think they were going to help them. They succeeded. Genius actually.

 

I can not believe for one minute that this lady wants to help us. I believe they are asking us our own personal help in destroying our cause-or to come up with better answers to hinder us even more.

 

I know we can ask nicely and all what her "motivation" is, but really! When was the last time ONE report has EVER been done on this kind of information to help us? Please, can someone show me even One???? 

 

As Tuatara pointed out, all the money I have ever seen is how to figure out ways to get everyone on the planet to vax. End of story.

 

All that to say. Beware. I wish they would stop posting and I for one will never help.irked.gif

 

 

Sun

DS-13

DD-8

DD-2

"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu


S

DS-14

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"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu

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Old 07-25-2013, 08:29 AM
 
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Great post ssun! 

 

These polls are all about trying to manipulate because the anti-choicers are seeing the writing on the wall. More and more people are thinking for themselves and the anti choice brigade are seeing the writing on the wall. What they don't seem to realize, as has been demonstrated here, is they are shoving the same ol same ol in our faces, and we have heard it all before and know it is lies. They really have little left in their arsenal, so in a last ditch attempt they are trying to create something new to convince us to vaccinate. Not going to work because we know the truth.

 

I also well never help. Not that it matters because there is really nothing they can say that would ever convince me to vaccinate, short of force.


t
 
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:31 AM
 
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Can't help but wonder how many of these 'researchers' are connected to bill gates....

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Old 07-25-2013, 08:35 AM
 
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Can't help but wonder how many of these 'researchers' are connected to bill gates....

That thought crossed my mind too.

 

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/dirty-tricks-alert-bill-gates-will-smear-and-slime-anti-vaccine-advocates/


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Old 07-25-2013, 08:46 AM
 
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Where to start…...

 

I typically have taken surveys and polls listed here and elsewhere.

 

I did it in attempt to further understanding between groups, or to contribute to a body of knowledge (even knowing the limitations Turquesa pointed out). I enjoy and find value in reading about the differences in demographics or subgroups, as such I participate.  There have been studies of non-vaxxers I have found useful.  Once upon a time non-vaxxers were seen as stupid (they have changed that - now we just don't understand science, snort).  Studies showing that most non-vaxxers are actually more likely than the general public to have a masters degree or higher put the kabosh on that.

 

I also felt, and still feel, that sharing information can normalise the choice to not vaccinate.  I think it benefits children when parents are critical of health care choice, including vaccines.  I feel that becoming a closed group that does not share information does not serve our best purpose as those who care about vaccine choice.

 

OTOH, I am not really interested in giving someone fodder to write unbalanced articles.  I am not interested in giving people fodder on "how to talk to vaxxers to convert them" although those articles always come of as condescending pablum.  I hate how polarised this issue has become I have tried on occasion to decrease the polarisation (I can see the pro-vaxxers snickering, and perhaps with some justification - I can get caught up in heated arguments as much as the next person) but I don't think it is going to happen - not in this climate. 

 

So…I think my reasoning for wanting to participate in surveys is sound, but I think the current climate for participation is too hostile.

 

In the meantime, I do think we need to communicate our choices and our concerns, but we need to do it where we can control the message or can at least debate/discuss the content.  

 

 

 

 


 

 


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Old 07-26-2013, 04:51 AM
 
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Where to start…...

I typically have taken surveys and polls listed here and elsewhere.

I did it in attempt to further understanding between groups, or to contribute to a body of knowledge (even knowing the limitations Turquesa pointed out). I enjoy and find value in reading about the differences in demographics or subgroups, as such I participate.  There have been studies of non-vaxxers I have found useful.  Once upon a time non-vaxxers were seen as stupid (they have changed that - now we just don't understand science, snort).  Studies showing that most non-vaxxers are actually more likely than the general public to have a masters degree or higher put the kabosh on that.

I also felt, and still feel, that sharing information can normalise the choice to not vaccinate.  I think it benefits children when parents are critical of health care choice, including vaccines.  I feel that becoming a closed group that does not share information does not serve our best purpose as those who care about vaccine choice.

OTOH, I am not really interested in giving someone fodder to write unbalanced articles.  I am not interested in giving people fodder on "how to talk to vaxxers to convert them" although those articles always come of as condescending pablum.  I hate how polarised this issue has become I have tried on occasion to decrease the polarisation (I can see the pro-vaxxers snickering, and perhaps with some justification - I can get caught up in heated arguments as much as the next person) but I don't think it is going to happen - not in this climate. 

So…I think my reasoning for wanting to participate in surveys is sound, but I think the current climate for participation is too hostile.

In the meantime, I do think we need to communicate our choices and our concerns, but we need to do it where we can control the message or can at least debate/discuss the content.  




You've listed very good reasons to participate, but I'm afraid the vast majority of researchers are looking for fodder--to write unbalanced articles, as you say, but also to help those in charge figure out how to change our minds, which is probably going to translate into "which lies should we tell to make them think vaccines are safe? What should we cover up?"

You want to bet we'll start seeing more articles on US children dying from VPD's, and more fingers pointed at non-vaxxers as patient Zero? They know they have to counteract the fact that more people know someone who has had a vaccine reaction.
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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I refuse to participate in such polls and threads. While there may be some legit people, the vast majority is probably not. The ugly name calling and constant yelling is pretty tale telling....
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:48 PM
 
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You know what is more annoying than pollsters (and that CAN be annoying)?? Bill Gates! This guy is thoroughly involved with the pro vaccine agenda, here and overseas. This guy disturbs me. He funded this project: Measuring vaccine confidence: analysis of data obtained by a media surveillance system used to analyse public concerns about vaccines.

Background
The intensity, spread, and effects of public opinion about vaccines are growing as new modes of communication speed up information sharing, contributing to vaccine hesitancy, refusals, and disease outbreaks. We aimed to develop a new application of existing surveillance systems to detect and characterise early signs of vaccine issues. We also aimed to develop a typology of concerns and a way to assess the priority of each concern.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(13)70108-7/fulltext#article_upsell
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Old 07-27-2013, 10:00 AM
 
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bakunin, this was posted in the I'm not vaxxing forum, which is a support forum only.

 

 

Quote:
I'm Not Vaccinating - This is a support-only forum for those not or those seriously considering not vaccinating. Here we host discussion of issues that arise when choosing to not vaccinate and sharing of resources and information that are related to the no-vax decision. Members who are vaccinating should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted.

http://www.mothering.com/community/a/vaccination-forum-guidelines

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Old 07-27-2013, 12:16 PM
 
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That's fair. But I'm not arguing whether a parent should vaccinate or not in my post. Simply arguing that all parents (anti, pro and not sure) should make informed decisions.

That's not the point. Coming here to argue about anything we post is against forum rules.

"Members who are vaccinating should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted."

Wife to one amazing husband superhero.gif, SAHM to DS bouncy.gif 10/09, DS babyboy.gif 10/19,  one furbaby dog2.gif, and lots of chicken3.gif!

 
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Old 07-27-2013, 01:59 PM
 
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bakunin, this was posted in the I'm not vaxxing forum, which is a support forum only.

 

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/a/vaccination-forum-guidelines

Thanks, Fruitfulmomma!  I have held a few post that I think may go against the forum guidelines. Kamiro will say for sure. Thanks for flagging! 


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Old 08-06-2013, 10:25 AM
 
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Really enjoyed that!

 

That John guy is hilarious!


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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