"The problematic privilege of being anti-vaccine" and the New Mommy Wars - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 29 Old 09-12-2013, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I came across this blog post last night...

 

http://www.rageagainsttheminivan.com/2013/08/the-problematic-privilege-of-being-anti.html


She says

Quote:

Next week, I’m partnering with a campaign to give vaccines to children who are at risk of preventable diseases. I’m going to write a post for them here, and then they are going to give a vaccine to a child for each comment on that post, so stay tuned.

 

 

(Hopefully the link stayed there so you can click and see what this campaign is all about.)

 

The author attempts to remain neutral, to play nice, to affirm that she understands non-vaxxing parents concerns, though she does pull out the polio pictures for a nice affect. So I am thinking, and several commenters were too, why, if vaccines are the greatest form of health care this world has ever seen and they are needed so badly, is she and this campaign and the other bloggers they've gotten on board, playing this little donation game??? That makes no sense. If you have the money and ability to give a child life saving medicine you give it to them. If a boat capsized and several children were in the water and you had the chance to save them, you don't wait on the shore until people have voted on how many to save!!!

 

But here is thing, I don't think it is about giving children vaccines. I mean, I am sure that is what it is about for this blogger. I am not doubting her intentions, but I don't think that is what this campaign is about. I think it is about using social media to shame and bully non-vaxxing families, to start more mommy wars for the sake of getting us to comply via peer pressure and emotional pleading. I have seen more bullying with regards to non-vaxxing in the last three months than in the last 13+ years that I've been a parent. 

 

And people are mean. I have seen multiple people in the last week shaking their cyber fists and telling those of us who don't vaxx that they can't wait until we or our child get a vaxx-available disease and that when we do they will laugh and not help because basically we deserve it. (This was NOT here in Mothering.) Wow! Really??? Because if your child has a vaxx reaction and you are left dealing with the after effects, I have no plans to say, see I told you so and jump up and down with glee. I plan to help you and be compassionate and if you want to talk about vaxxes later, sure we'll talk and there won't be any blame games going on. Sheesh!

 

Thoughts?


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#2 of 29 Old 09-12-2013, 08:03 AM
 
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I agree with you about the purpose of the campaign.

 

As for people who would actually  take delight (and are admitting it!!) in a child being harmed by ANYTHING just for the sake of being able to feel justified in their beliefs highlights just how ignorant and mean-spirited (and dare I say what a basically rotten human being) they are. And I'd also venture to say they are not the brightest bulbs in the bunch because really even if a person is a sicko (and IMO delighting in the harm of children is sick), you'd think they wouldn't advertise to the world just how much of a sick freak they are!!

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#3 of 29 Old 09-12-2013, 08:05 PM
 
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I had to stop reading the comments - so ignorant! People nicely dancing around the fact that kids are injured by vaccines "but you did the right thing for the greater good".  Blood boiling!  My daughter had horrible vaccine reactions and I will no longer vaccinate, yet some of these people would stand there and tell me that her issues aren't really a concern because she's doing her part for herd immunity. banghead.gif   Yah ok.  You can't apologize then follow it with a *but* statement!  Rather than focus on vaccinating these poor individuals with no clean water and food, why can't the pharm giants be proactive and provide access to cleaner environments to promote health?  Sorry, wishful thinking here...

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#4 of 29 Old 09-13-2013, 07:09 AM
 
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I read the article.

 

It had 2 major points:

 

1.  Not all parts of the world have as low a disease incidence and access to health care as wealthier parts of the world.  This is true, unfortunate, and does not affect my decisions around vaccination in a wealthy country.  It reminds me of the "eat you vegetables - children in China are starving!" story.  How is eating my vegetable going to help them?  It is not.  

 

2.  The rest of her argument was classic herd immunity nonsense.  I have ranted about the ethics of herd immunity enough, so I will skip the monologue.  Suffice to say, I find the self-congratulatory, and self-righteous attitude of those who are happy to be contributing to herd immunity off-putting.  If their child has a severe vaccine reaction the smugness will poof, and I bet some will be ashamed that they used to invoke a doctrine (herd immunity) that puts society ahead of individual children.  

 

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#5 of 29 Old 09-13-2013, 07:57 PM
 
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If kids in third world countries are vulnerable to disease due to the lack of clean drinking water, proper sanitation, and nutritious food... maybe we should endeavour to give them those things, instead of vaccinations? Otherwise they are still sick and hungry, whether they have polio or not.

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#6 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 01:49 AM
 
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I wonder whether the commenters to that article have their own vaccinations renewed, say, every ten years to keep up the herd immunity.Why is the onus on young children and their parents (the latter with presumably out of date jabs) only?

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#7 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 09:23 AM
 
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Since I'm not an American, this means something different to me. It is very sad indeed that we need to be "buying" kids basic health care one vaccine at a time. Life-saving vaccines, and other care, should be available to all humans, paid for by our taxes. That is how we help each other as a human race. It's a small price to pay, and it makes the world happier and less miserable for everyone.

 

I think people should be fighting with everything they have to implement and maintain a universal health care system in all countries. That is what strikes me the most when I read this article.

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#8 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 10:58 AM
 
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While universal healthcare is a noble thing, the concern I have about it in the US, given the influence of big pharma and the current public health paradigm, is that it will be a fast track to mandatory vaccination. No vaccines. No healthcare. Essentially a medical police state.

 

For the non-vax, pro-choicers here, I thought this fictional short story by Jon Rappaport ominous, indeed.

 

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/priests-in-white-coats-kill-a-baby-of-the-state/


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#9 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 01:34 PM
 
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Yikes... National Health Care= Medical Police State?? I certainly hope not! Despite all of the flaws, medicine does have a place in our society. Everyone should have access to or the opportunity for health care of their choice, including the right to refuse it!
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#10 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 03:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

While universal healthcare is a noble thing, the concern I have about it in the US, given the influence of big pharma and the current public health paradigm, is that it will be a fast track to mandatory vaccination. No vaccines. No healthcare. Essentially a medical police state.

 

For the non-vax, pro-choicers here, I thought this fictional short story by Jon Rappaport ominous, indeed.

 

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/priests-in-white-coats-kill-a-baby-of-the-state/

Agreed. And that story, while fictional, is absolutely terrifying - one of my worst nightmares.  That I would literally have to fight for the right to make decisions as a free individual. Of course I've already told DH we would have to leave the country were that the case, I just couldn't stand to live somewhere that thinks they own my body.

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#11 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Yikes... National Health Care= Medical Police State?? I certainly hope not!

 

While it may not be the law, families who are on Medicaid have reported being told that they *must* vaccinate by the care providers seeing their children.

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#12 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 05:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

While universal healthcare is a noble thing, the concern I have about it in the US, given the influence of big pharma and the current public health paradigm, is that it will be a fast track to mandatory vaccination. No vaccines. No healthcare. Essentially a medical police state.

 

For the non-vax, pro-choicers here, I thought this fictional short story by Jon Rappaport ominous, indeed.

 

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/priests-in-white-coats-kill-a-baby-of-the-state/

 

That short story by Jon Rappaport is not so far from the truth, as we know from the case in Hershey, PA, where Scott and Jodi Ferris's newborn baby was forcibly taken away and Jodi was kicked out of the hospital within hours of giving birth BECAUSE Jodi did not consent to giving her baby the hepatitis B vaccine.  

http://archive.recapthelaw.org/pamd/88588/

 
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#13 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 05:38 AM
 
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Perhaps with a blog like this, a ton of us whose children have been vaccine injured (who seem to flock to this site for support) should 'blog bomb' those blogs/articles with our stories.  Our truths are a difficult thing, for a person who sees this as a 'choice', to contend with. Maybe when someone posts an article here, we can each go and post our horror stories or our reasoning for not vaxxing there.  

Haters be damned!!

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#14 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post
 

Since I'm not an American, this means something different to me. It is very sad indeed that we need to be "buying" kids basic health care one vaccine at a time. Life-saving vaccines   and other care, should be available to all humans, paid for by our taxes. That is how we help each other as a human race. It's a small price to pay, and it makes the world happier and less miserable for everyone.

 

I think people should be fighting with everything they have to implement and maintain a universal health care system in all countries.

I agree (save for crossed out part :wink)

 

There are countries that have universal health care and do not have mandatory vaccines.  Canada and Great Britain come to mind, although there are others.

 

That does not mean the US could, though, at this point.  I find that quite sad.  I don't really know.  I do not have the sort of knowledge of the USA one gains from living in the country. 

 

I also wonder (and this is not about anyone on this forum) if some who do not want universal health care (wealthy tea party types, perhaps?) use fear of vaccine being mandatory to keep people against universal health care?  Is there a line where universal health care, vaccine and politics intersect?

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#15 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 08:07 AM
 
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Kathy, I am not against universal healthcare at all. I grew up in the UK and really appreciated the NHS - I would love to have that here in the US. But given the way things are heading here in terms of health freedom, I worry about that the system could be used to limit our choices even more.

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#16 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 09:38 AM
 
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Kathy, I am not against universal healthcare at all. I grew up in the UK and really appreciated the NHS - I would love to have that here in the US. But given the way things are heading here in terms of health freedom, I worry about that the system could be used to limit our choices even more.

Most people who grow up with universal health care really appreciate it - this does not surprise me.

 

I think you probably have a unique voice - a Brit in the USA.  

 

I just wish vaccines were not political.  If wishes were horses.....

 

Perhaps the USA has other issues to fix before it considers universal health care (i.e the health paradigm/Big Pharm influence you mentioned earlier?)  OTOH, if you wait until everything is fixed before you act you could wait forever.

 

For what it is worth, I wonder if a small part of the reasons vaccines are not mandatory here is because they are funded?  When I do not vax, I save the state some money - and on some level both taxpayers and the state probably like that, lol.  

 

I write this post and the last one somewhat tentatively. I am not American, I don't live there - my opinions can really only be that of an outsider (although sometimes outsiders can still notice useful things).  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#17 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Gentle reminder that this was posted in the I'm Not Vaccinating board, and as such, is a support-only topic, so I am not really interested in discussing how we can make sure that all children have access to vaccines. Also, pretty sure the vaxxes from this program are being given out in 3rd world countries. The lowest-income families in America have access to Medicaid and can receive all vaxxes through that program.

 

Quote:
That short story by Jon Rappaport is not so far from the truth, as we know from the case in Hershey, PA

I skimmed the story, but that was exactly what I was thinking. Also, another family lost their baby, Ian, after a routine Hep B shot in the hospital. bawling.gif

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#18 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 12:12 PM
 
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A lot of babies have died after routine hep B vaccination.  There's a chart floating around the internet that shows how risk for SIDS spikes after vaccination visits.  Can anybody find it?

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#19 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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Well, here in Germany we also have a universal health care system. In recent years though costs have increased while care has decreased. Yet more and more vaccines are being recommended and these costs are covered under the general health insurance. At present they are having a debate about mandatory MMR shots since there have been a few measles cases this year. So I am very much on edge about that. It used to be no problem not to vax but docs, schools etc. are getting more and more restrictive about that here as well. With my DD1 now in Kindergarten, I had no problem there. We will see what is yet to come.


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#20 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 09:50 AM
 
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I just read the John Rapport story and it reminds me of what goes on here in TX. I was just notified by my doula that the hospital is required to report you to CPS for not vaxing and not given the eye drops. The hospital birthcenter I am using routinely doesnt report on parents but my doula is fearful they are about to get in trouble for that. I have already had a CPS case against me because I was breastfeeding over a year... Scary what the government can do to "force and issue"

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#21 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I just read the John Rapport story and it reminds me of what goes on here in TX. I was just notified by my doula that the hospital is required to report you to CPS for not vaxing and not given the eye drops. The hospital birthcenter I am using routinely doesnt report on parents but my doula is fearful they are about to get in trouble for that. I have already had a CPS case against me because I was breastfeeding over a year... Scary what the government can do to "force and issue"

Yikes! I am from Texas (but have lived in Colorado most of my life) and we've talked about moving back but were pretty much decided against it because we have heard that cps gets called over a lot of stuff there.

 

On another note... just read through a opinion piece on gluten-free fad diets :eyesroll and guess what half the comments were about? Yep, in an piece that said exactly nothing about vaccinations, there were people on there railing against nutty anti-vaxxers who are killing everyone and ruining the world. And more "adults" threatening vulnerable children, saying they'd love to sneak peanuts into an allergic child's sandwich.

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#22 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 10:13 AM
 
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I have already had a CPS case against me because I was breastfeeding over a year... Scary what the government can do to "force and issue"

 

Wait huh? How does this make sense? I thought "extended" breastfeeding was recommended??

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#23 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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I am sorry that happened to you! I think your family or someone must be out to get you though because as a Texas gal, I think other than having to drive to get to some great doc's.... rules here are great. Most of my friends breastfeed to 2 years or more..... lots don't vax.

 

Texas has very specific rules that states they can not investigate you for denying any vaxes.

I will try to dig that up. I have friends who work in CPS and it is law. Are you sure your doula is correct?

 

The law is that the medical professional will be charged with a misdemeanor if THEY fail to administer it.  But competent adults can refuse any medical treatment for their child.  It's to keep the medical professionals from making a personal decision about whether or not they are going to blanket treat all their newborn patients with the ointment.  It's not to force parents to allow it to be administered.  That's the wording of the law explained to me by a lawyer.  However, their perception of the law if often more important than the actual requirments of the law if they are administering medical treatment to your child.

 

I have given birth 2 times in Tx and never even heard of this..... or anyone I am around. Stand your ground!!! tell them to call cps, and when cps finishes laughing in their faces... nothing will happen and you will still have gotten your way! :-)

 

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#24 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 11:22 AM
 
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Ugh I'm glad I'm done having kids or I'd opt for a homebirth since we now live in TX. On the bright side, the exemption was easy peasy!

 

Minerva, I doubt they'll make MMR mandatory. Bahr was just trying to get more votes by suggesting that. Vaccination rates for MMR are actually very high.

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#25 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 01:11 PM
 
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Ugh I'm glad I'm done having kids or I'd opt for a homebirth since we now live in TX. On the bright side, the exemption was easy peasy!

 

Minerva, I doubt they'll make MMR mandatory. Bahr was just trying to get more votes by suggesting that. Vaccination rates for MMR are actually very high.

Yeah, I doubt very much that any party will get away with mandatory vaccines. Still, the tone of the debate has changed, subtly but enough to get one's attention.


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#26 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 01:55 PM
 
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I am sorry that happened to you! I think your family or someone must be out to get you though because as a Texas gal, I think other than having to drive to get to some great doc's.... rules here are great. Most of my friends breastfeed to 2 years or more..... lots don't vax.

 

Texas has very specific rules that states they can not investigate you for denying any vaxes.

I will try to dig that up. I have friends who work in CPS and it is law. Are you sure your doula is correct?

 

The law is that the medical professional will be charged with a misdemeanor if THEY fail to administer it.  But competent adults can refuse any medical treatment for their child.  It's to keep the medical professionals from making a personal decision about whether or not they are going to blanket treat all their newborn patients with the ointment.  It's not to force parents to allow it to be administered.  That's the wording of the law explained to me by a lawyer.  However, their perception of the law if often more important than the actual requirments of the law if they are administering medical treatment to your child.

 

I have given birth 2 times in Tx and never even heard of this..... or anyone I am around. Stand your ground!!! tell them to call cps, and when cps finishes laughing in their faces... nothing will happen and you will still have gotten your way! :-)

 

S

DS-13  

DD-8

DD-2

"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu

 

My Doula was apparently reffering to the erythromycin drops. those ARE mandated by law I looked up the family law code. It states that anyone delivering babies is committing a class b misdemeanor for not administering the drops after birth. If you refuse the hospital must mandatory report. The birthcenter at the Hospital I am delivering at does not abide by this mandatory report rule however my doula is concerned that they may have to soon as CPS was starting to look in them. As for why CPS was called the reasoning given by the person who reported me (this was a former neighbor whose husband made a comment I was pretty one day... Some people right?!?!) was I fed her on a "strict organic diet and was continuing to breastfeed to an inappropriate age" because this can be termed under "neglect" which is a BROAD BROAD term here for CPS to have any window to investigate at any time they sent an armed officer to do a welfare check at 10 pm on a weeknight. Followed by an 8 am house visit by a CPS agent. I have retained an attorney now just in case I am given problems at the hospital because I will NOT deal with CPS or the police again!
 

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#27 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 02:41 PM
 
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My Doula was apparently reffering to the erythromycin drops. those ARE mandated by law I looked up the family law code. It states that anyone delivering babies is committing a class b misdemeanor for not administering the drops after birth. If you refuse the hospital must mandatory report. The birthcenter at the Hospital I am delivering at does not abide by this mandatory report rule however my doula is concerned that they may have to soon as CPS was starting to look in them. As for why CPS was called the reasoning given by the person who reported me (this was a former neighbor whose husband made a comment I was pretty one day... Some people right?!?!) was I fed her on a "strict organic diet and was continuing to breastfeed to an inappropriate age" because this can be termed under "neglect" which is a BROAD BROAD term here for CPS to have any window to investigate at any time they sent an armed officer to do a welfare check at 10 pm on a weeknight. Followed by an 8 am house visit by a CPS agent. I have retained an attorney now just in case I am given problems at the hospital because I will NOT deal with CPS or the police again!
 

 

I think your explanation made me more confused. Breastfeeding=neglect....?? Regardless, I'm so sorry for your troubles mama. Especially since lawyers are expensive as hell.

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#28 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 04:46 PM
 
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First, I am sorry that they did that to you at such weird times and over something silly. :Hug  That really stinks!!!

 

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Originally Posted by lrj85
 

 

My Doula was apparently reffering to the erythromycin drops. those ARE mandated by law I looked up the family law code. It states that anyone delivering babies is committing a class b misdemeanor for not administering the drops after birth This is what I am refering too. I can read the family law as well. It is against the law for them not to give it... UNLESS, a COMPETENT adult refuses treatment for their child. They can't Force any treatment on you :) The law is to force doctors/midwifes etc to administer them Unless told not too. I am sorry, I can quote the entire law.... it is ALL directed to the medical profession.  If the midwives are not offering them to everyone and have written refusal from the parents then yes.... they could face charges. If they did call CPS, this is in the same protection catagory as vaxes and they aren't suppose to come check you out for it.

 

The thing that sucks is that even the horrific hospitals here who are nazi vax peeps do not tell any woman this load of garbage. My sister just gave birth here this last year and just had to sign an "against medical advise" paper for the eye drops to cover the meds buts. The vit K and Hep B were a simple refusal. It really seems to depend on the hospital you give birth at.

 

If you feel like you don't want to fight the fight, have the midwives put it on your baby's eyebrows or chin, or cheeks and then wipe off. The law doesn't state anywhere -the exact spot you are suppose to "administer" it too. :-)

 

I hope I am not freaking you out but it always gets under my skin when one person or hospital or group is saying something that the entire state isn't really following and so I get a screw you attitude :-) Can you go into to hospital and talk to them about it, sign all the paperwork to refuse it before you labor so you don't have to worry about it?
 

 

 

If you refuse the hospital must mandatory report.I would like to see the law on this. I can find no laws anywhere that states this. If they say that, ask them to show you where it says that.

*I realize just because it actually isn't law doesn't stop them from calling but even if they do, cps can't/or shouldn't care and won't investigate it.*

The birthcenter at the Hospital I am delivering at does not abide by this mandatory report rule however my doula is concerned that they may have to soon as CPS was starting to look in them. As for why CPS was called the reasoning given by the person who reported me (this was a former neighbor whose husband made a comment I was pretty one day... Some people right?!?!) was I fed her on a "strict organic diet and was continuing to breastfeed to an inappropriate age" because this can be termed under "neglect" which is a BROAD BROAD term here for CPS to have any window to investigate at any time they sent an armed officer to do a welfare check at 10 pm on a weeknight. Followed by an 8 am house visit by a CPS agent. I have retained an attorney now just in case I am given problems at the hospital because I will NOT deal with CPS or the police again!
 

 

S

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Those who are brave grow greater.
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#29 of 29 Old 09-20-2013, 08:17 AM
 
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No you arent freaking me out CPS in general gets me on the defensive because they use all sort of reasons much like the police to decide to "investigate" regardless of probable cause so I prefer to have an attorney on retainer to handle the issues. My attorney's advice to me yesterday was refuse CPS access and then tell them if they would like to schedule an interview IE have a warrant they can meet with myself and my attorney. After the last go round where I felt totally violated I refuse to deal with government agencies without representation!

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