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#1 of 33 Old 11-09-2013, 02:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There have been ten reported cases of polio in war-torn Syria. Now there is a huge campaign to vaccinate (with the live virus I believe) and give boosters to every child in neighboring Jordan (there are thousands -millions?- of Syrian refugees in Jordan).

 

My two older kids (6 & 4.5) have been vaccinated against polio while my two younger ones (2.5, 8 mo) have not. I live in Jordan but my kids are homeschooled and their contact with other kids is minimal at this point. I am trying to come to a decision regarding whether or not to vax them. I know that no one can make that decision for me, I just want to hear others point of views. -- What would you do?

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#2 of 33 Old 11-09-2013, 08:36 AM
 
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There are a couple of things that are relevant here:

 

1. Syria ALREADY underwent a massive vaccination campaign against polio, targeted at children, in later 2012/early 2013. 

2. This same vaccine (oral polio vaccine) is the vaccine that led to more than 45,000 cases of paralytic polio in India when it was mass given to children. 

3. They received the oral polio vaccine, which is LIVE and not used in the United States because it was proven to *induce* polio. From their website (VAPP is vaccine-associated paralytic polio):

 

"one case of VAPP occurred for every 2 to 3 million doses of OPV administered, which resulted in 8 to 10 cases of VAPP each year in the United States (see Adverse Reactions section for more details on VAPP). From 1980 through 1999, VAPP accounted for 95% of all cases of paralytic poliomyelitis reported in the United States.

In 1996, ACIP recommended an increase in use of IPV through a sequential schedule of IPV followed by OPV. This recommendation was intended to reduce the occurrence of vaccine-associated paralytic polio. The sequential schedule was expected to eliminate VAPP among vaccine recipients by producing humoral immunity to polio vaccine viruses with inactivated polio vaccine prior to exposure to live vaccine virus. Since OPV was still used for the third and fourth doses of the polio vaccination schedule, a risk of VAPP would continue to exist among contacts of vaccinees, who were exposed to live vaccine virus in the stool of vaccine recipients.

The sequential IPV–OPV polio vaccination schedule was widely accepted by both providers and parents. Fewer cases of VAPP were reported in 1998 and 1999, suggesting an impact of the increased use of IPV. However, only the complete discontinuation of use of OPV would lead to complete elimination of VAPP. To further the goal of complete elimination of paralytic polio in the United States, ACIP recommended in July 1999 that inactivated polio vaccine be used exclusively in the United States beginning in 2000. OPV is no longer routinely available in the United States. Exclusive use of IPV eliminated the shedding of live vaccine virus, and eliminated any indigenous VAPP."

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html

 

Keep in mind that those numbers (1 per 2-3 million doses and 8-10 cases per year from that) are for the *United States*, where we have access to running water, clean food and water and generally have a hygienic standard of living. I would imagine that the numbers in places like impoverished parts of India and Syrian refugee camps would be much higher. 

 

4. In addition to all of that, the general public is massively misinformed about the nature of the poliomyelitis virus. Lest anybody think that that's just a tin foil hat opinion, even the CDC says that, in essence,  that the polio virus is much more common than people think; that 95% of people who have the virus display no symptoms, fewer than 1% develop paralysis, and many of them self-recover. Actually, the current CDC information is that estimates of the ratio of asymptomatic to paralytic polio are as low as 1,000:1 - that's not 95%, it's 99.9%.

 

Living conditions and overall immune health make a HUGE difference in these types of things. 

 

Furthermore, the diagnostic criteria for polio changed in the late 1950s. Most of the people currently diagnosed with Bell's palsy, or acute flaccid paralysis, or aseptic meningitis, or any of several other diseases, would have been listed as having polio in the 1950s.

 

So... what am I going to do? Absolutely nothing different. I'm going to keep fostering a healthy immune system in my entire family by way of good nutrition, good hygiene and plenty of immune boosting vitamins.

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#3 of 33 Old 11-10-2013, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you so much for your input. I havent yet come to a final decision, still gathering info.

 

Here is something relevant to the matter at hand for anyone interested:

 

http://www.occupycorporatism.com/the-shocking-truth-about-syrian-polio-resurgence-regime-change/

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We are getting some Syrian refugees, too. There are suppossed to be screened for health problems and pushing vaccines in the media is already going on. We will see what comes from that. I cannot even imagine the situation in your country and I feel sorry for all these people being displaced and loosing everything and now this is going on too with the polio. It is going to be a tough decision to make. If this polio outbreak is actually vaccine-induced how much higher is the likelyhood to contract it and have severe side effects like paralysis etc?


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#5 of 33 Old 11-10-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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 If this polio outbreak is actually vaccine-induced how much higher is the likelyhood to contract it and have severe side effects like paralysis etc?

I would like to know this too!

 

I heard a story on NPR the other day and can't find it to post it :( but they didn't come right out and say it but hinted around about it with the "very" high vaccination rates prior to the civil war - I doubt they (or anyone else) will really elaborate on the cause 

 

and to what you said - SO SAD all away around and this is just a tiny issue compared to the rest of the mess - awful!


 

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#6 of 33 Old 11-10-2013, 02:12 PM
 
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Add in the fact that they're giving the OPV AGAIN, in response to the new cases, and it's a pretty tough call to make. greensad.gif

Personally, I have major doubts about the vaccine's efficacy regardless, and believe that the decline in polio was not the result of the vaccine but the result of more hygienic living conditions and dramatic changes in the diagnostic criteria for polio. For that reason, as well as the fact that otherwise healthy people are more than 95% more likely to have no symptoms whatsoever after coming into contact with the poliomyelitis virus (and building a natural immunity in doing so, by the way, because contrary to popular belief you don't actually have to become ill to create antibodies to something, you just have to come into contact with it) I think the odds of me or my family becoming paralyzed by polio are extremely low, and the risk of the vaccine wouldn't be worth it. That's just me, though, and if you asked me a year ago I may have said something different. I'm also not facing the risk of coming into contact with the OPV virus, which is scary and intimidating no matter how you feel about the efficacy of the shots.

I've also read a very interesting theory about tonsillectomies and their relationship with the poliomyelitis virus that suggests the reason for the number if paralytic cases in the 1950s was caused largely by the fact that tonsillectomies were routine and the tonsils actually play an important part in polio antibody creation. I'm on my phone right now but if anyone is interested in that, I can add some links when dd goes to sleep. smile.gif

I would do as much reading as you feel you need to and go with your mama gut (and if you do decide you want to vax, insist on the IPV which is not live). If it's possible, I would also see if you can have titles drawn to check for polio antibodies that may already be present.

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#7 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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 I'm also not facing the risk of coming into contact with the OPV virus, which is scary and intimidating no matter how you feel about the efficacy of the shots.

 

The problem is, I am facing that risk. I heard that there is a goal of vaxxing 20 million kids age 20 and under in this region. So what is the greater danger to my kids now? Remain unvaxxed but risk being exposed to the OPV virus from the society, or to just go ahead and receive the IPV (which is very expensive, as opposed to the free OPV - in fact I heard that there are millions of OPV that the vaccine companies cannot get rid of due to the high cost of eliminating biohazard materials, and so they are conveniently disposing of them in 3rd world country kids. Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory but I dont think its so far-fetched).

 

Lets say they are exposed to the OPV virus - are complications resulting from this virus worse than those acquired from wild polio?

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The problem is, I am facing that risk. I heard that there is a goal of vaxxing 20 million kids age 20 and under in this region. So what is the greater danger to my kids now? Remain unvaxxed but risk being exposed to the OPV virus from the society, or to just go ahead and receive the IPV (which is very expensive, as opposed to the free OPV - in fact I heard that there are millions of OPV that the vaccine companies cannot get rid of due to the high cost of eliminating biohazard materials, and so they are conveniently disposing of them in 3rd world country kids. Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory but I dont think its so far-fetched).

 

Lets say they are exposed to the OPV virus - are complications resulting from this virus worse than those acquired from wild polio? If they are a symptomatic how would you even know? that would be my real concern!! 

I can't help you! sorry:(

 

I would love to know this too - apparently (please someone correct me here) you can't really test/titers to know even if your child has been exposed already - so the only advise "professionals" give is to GIVE something -right? My understanding that here in the US when there was "the polio scares in the 50's" they just vacced regardless if you had it and never knew it - yet in your case OPV remains just end up in your sewerage system and it would be hard to not get exposed???? 

 

sounds awful all away around


 

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#9 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 07:22 AM
 
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The problem is, I am facing that risk. I heard that there is a goal of vaxxing 20 million kids age 20 and under in this region. So what is the greater danger to my kids now? Remain unvaxxed but risk being exposed to the OPV virus from the society, or to just go ahead and receive the IPV (which is very expensive, as opposed to the free OPV - in fact I heard that there are millions of OPV that the vaccine companies cannot get rid of due to the high cost of eliminating biohazard materials, and so they are conveniently disposing of them in 3rd world country kids. Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory but I dont think its so far-fetched).

 

Lets say they are exposed to the OPV virus - are complications resulting from this virus worse than those acquired from wild polio?

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all. What other reason could there be for giving a vaccine that even the CDC has admitted is more dangerous?

 

Honestly, I'm not completely sure if the complications from OPV virus would be any different from those associated with wild polio. My gut instinct would be no, but I've asked a few knowledgeable friends if they have anything more definitive they could share with me. 

 

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I can't help you! sorry:(

 

I would love to know this too - apparently (please someone correct me here) you can't really test/titers to know even if your child has been exposed already - so the only advise "professionals" give is to GIVE something -right? My understanding that here in the US when there was "the polio scares in the 50's" they just vacced regardless if you had it and never knew it - yet in your case OPV remains just end up in your sewerage system and it would be hard to not get exposed???? 

 

sounds awful all away around

 

Titers absolutely show whether or not you've come into contact with a virus. :) They're a screening for antibodies to a specific pathogen (and you can't form antibodies to a pathogen you've never been exposed to). It isn't a guarantee that you have immunity to that pathogen, so I guess you could argue that, but generally speaking naturally formed antibodies at least offer you a greater chance of fighting off any subsequent exposures. 


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I

 

Titers absolutely show whether or not you've come into contact with a virus. :) They're a screening for antibodies to a specific pathogen (and you can't form antibodies to a pathogen you've never been exposed to). It isn't a guarantee that you have immunity to that pathogen, so I guess you could argue that, but generally speaking naturally formed antibodies at least offer you a greater chance of fighting off any subsequent exposures. 

that was what I thought, so you really are back to square one, so to say 


 

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I guess it depends how you look at it, considering that's all a vaccine (either form) would provide anyway - forcibly formed antibodies. If you're looking for something to "guarantee" immunity, you're in for disappointment. wink1.gif

Personally, I would trust naturally formed antibodies more than I would trust artificially formed ones because the process is so intricate and complex that no one fully understands it and IME natural antibodies are far more effective. That plus a strong immune system (boosted with things like probiotics, vitamins D3 and C, lots of green foods, good handwashing) offers a lot more resistance to ANY viral or bacterial infection.

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#12 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 08:20 AM
 
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In other words, if you have already been exposed and you already have natural antibodies, the vaccine isn't going to offer you any benefit. It's a cheaper version of something you already have (plus all of the wonderful side effects and risks).

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#13 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 12:25 PM
 
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Add in the fact that they're giving the OPV AGAIN, in response to the new cases, and it's a pretty tough call to make. greensad.gif

Personally, I have major doubts about the vaccine's efficacy regardless, and believe that the decline in polio was not the result of the vaccine but the result of more hygienic living conditions and dramatic changes in the diagnostic criteria for polio. For that reason, as well as the fact that otherwise healthy people are more than 95% more likely to have no symptoms whatsoever after coming into contact with the poliomyelitis virus (and building a natural immunity in doing so, by the way, because contrary to popular belief you don't actually have to become ill to create antibodies to something, you just have to come into contact with it) I think the odds of me or my family becoming paralyzed by polio are extremely low, and the risk of the vaccine wouldn't be worth it. That's just me, though, and if you asked me a year ago I may have said something different. I'm also not facing the risk of coming into contact with the OPV virus, which is scary and intimidating no matter how you feel about the efficacy of the shots.

I've also read a very interesting theory about tonsillectomies and their relationship with the poliomyelitis virus that suggests the reason for the number if paralytic cases in the 1950s was caused largely by the fact that tonsillectomies were routine and the tonsils actually play an important part in polio antibody creation. I'm on my phone right now but if anyone is interested in that, I can add some links when dd goes to sleep. smile.gif

I would do as much reading as you feel you need to and go with your mama gut (and if you do decide you want to vax, insist on the IPV which is not live). If it's possible, I would also see if you can have titles drawn to check for polio antibodies that may already be present.


I would be interested in the tonsillectomies theory. So please some links.

 

Well, since polio has been around basically forever but yet it got a more epidemic character beginning in the 1910s, it is believed to be an illness associated with 'more' cleanliness and higher hygienic standards. So this outbreak in a war ridden zone with a high pre-war vaccination rate actually only leaves one to believe that is must be vaccine induced.


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#14 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 01:00 PM
 
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I would be interested in the tonsillectomies theory. So please some links.

 

Well, since polio has been around basically forever but yet it got a more epidemic character beginning in the 1910s, it is believed to be an illness associated with 'more' cleanliness and higher hygienic standards. So this outbreak in a war ridden zone with a high pre-war vaccination rate actually only leaves one to believe that is must be vaccine induced.

I don't buy into that 100% - I "guess" it has something to do with (and highly doubt true info would come out to this) that it is a few factors mixed in with the vaccine, foreign fighters with status questionable as to their vaccination history and I do think the breakdown within the infrastructure that war causes - sewerage can't be totally ruled out.

 

I feel higher hygienic standards DO factor in but total breakdown is also not good (as in war situations) - think US pre-indoor plumbing, we had sanitation usage going on, it wasn't just some go where ever free for all, just not to the degree we had by the 1950's - so a do think there is just more than the vaccine rate prior going on - combination.

 

People do travel within the region, Palestine has infrastructure issues and other areas do as well, given the chance others have carried it comes to my mind.


 

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#15 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks keakiepie and everyone for your input. Im a bit frazzled trying to reach such a huge decision.

 

Quote:
In other words, if you have already been exposed and you already have natural antibodies, the vaccine isn't going to offer you any benefit. It's a cheaper version of something you already have (plus all of the wonderful side effects and risks).

 

But if you dont have natural antibodies? Would the cheap version be of any benefit in this OPV madhouse Im currently in?

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Well, since polio has been around basically forever but yet it got a more epidemic character beginning in the 1910s, it is believed to be an illness associated with 'more' cleanliness and higher hygienic standards. So this outbreak in a war ridden zone with a high pre-war vaccination rate actually only leaves one to believe that is must be vaccine induced.

 

I absolutely believe that it's vaccine induced, but am not sure that I believe more cleanliness is necessarily to blame. For the record, when I say "good hygiene" I mean hand washing, running water, clean food and drink - not hyper sanitization of EVERYTHING!!! which I agree is overall unhelpful to the immune system's development. It's definitely an interesting theory, though. 

 

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But if you dont have natural antibodies? Would the cheap version be of any benefit in this OPV madhouse Im currently in?

 

Honestly, that's one of those things that you really just need to follow your gut on. Personally, I would say no because for all of the above reasons, even with the OPV craziness that's going on, the risk of becoming infected AND having serious complications as a result is low whereas (I feel) that the risk of any vaccination is always high. YMMV, of course, but there were no documented cases (to my knowledge) of people recorded as having polio spreading the illness to doctors, nurses, etc. in the early 1900s and I firmly believe that it's a lot more difficult to contract than most people think. It's most commonly spread by ingestion of fecal matter of an infected person, so things like good hand washing, food washing, clean water, etc. cut down the risk factors a lot. As far as I know and as far as any studies that I can find go, it's not the kind of thing that can be passed by simple sharing of airspace. 

 

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I would be interested in the tonsillectomies theory. So please some links.

 

 

Sure thing. I'm short on time so I'll just grab a few for now:

 

Edited to remove one link --Viola

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1620872/

 

Even mainstream, pro-vaccine sources like MayoClinic agree that the removal of the tonsils places you at higher risk for infection:

 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/polio/DS00572/DSECTION=risk-factors


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I read about a month ago that Israel was asking for people, especially children to get vaccinated for polio. The live vaccine.  I believe it was specifically for people in southern Israel by Beersheba (capital of Negev).  Apparently it was found in the sewage system.

 

I would probably vaccinate if it was a problem where you are but would do the dead vaccine. I would not do the live one.

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#18 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 04:57 PM
 
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*sigh* I had a big reply typed out, but apparently it's awaiting moderation.


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#19 of 33 Old 11-12-2013, 04:48 AM
 
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*sigh* I had a big reply typed out, but apparently it's awaiting moderation.

can you re-type it? I would also report that you got awaiting moderation (I think this is an error message)


 

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Ugh, I just got it again. This is stupid.

 

"Because you're new here, your post is being held for moderation. Once approved by a moderator, it will be published on the site. Thanks for your patience."


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#21 of 33 Old 11-12-2013, 06:55 AM
 
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I would be interested in the tonsillectomies theory. So please some links.

 

Well, since polio has been around basically forever but yet it got a more epidemic character beginning in the 1910s, it is believed to be an illness associated with 'more' cleanliness and higher hygienic standards. So this outbreak in a war ridden zone with a high pre-war vaccination rate actually only leaves one to believe that is must be vaccine induced.

 

I absolutely believe that the outbreak is vaccine induced. I'm not sure that I believe that more cleanliness is responsible for transmission (especially considering the most common method of transmission of polio is ingestion of fecal matter), but I will agree that hyper sanitization of ALL the things!! is generally not helpful for our immune systems' development. :)

 

Here are a couple links regarding the polio and tonsillectomy relationship, for you and anyone else curious:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1620872/

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/042170_polio_pandemic_tonsillectomies_surgical_procedure.html#

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2010/10/10/polio-causes-and-effects-part-ii/

 

Edited to remove link.


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#22 of 33 Old 11-12-2013, 07:02 AM
 
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But if you dont have natural antibodies? Would the cheap version be of any benefit in this OPV madhouse Im currently in?

 

Honestly, I think that's one of those "go with your mama gut" things. I probably would NOT get the vaccination, even without natural antibodies, because based on all of the above information I believe my/my family's risk of developing complications is very low. We practice good hand washing, drink clean water and eat clean food and take a lot of immune boosting vitamins. I don't believe that the vaccine has a good efficacy rate and there is the potential for the toxic ingredients to actually hinder an otherwise healthy and functioning immune system. Also, as I mentioned above, the most common method of transmission of the virus is through ingestion of fecal matter from an infected person, so it's not even the sort of thing that you can really catch simply by sharing airspace (which is why in the 1950s, it was extremely uncommon for polio patients to pass the virus to doctors, nurses, family members, etc. - that and the fact that a large number of those patients weren't actually paralyzed by the polio virus but by other conditions included Bell's palsy and aseptic meningitis, among other things :)). 

 

Do you have Facebook? If so, I'm going to PM you the name of a woman in one of my Facebook vaccine groups, if you're interested. She runs a vaccination awareness group specifically for mamas in the Middle East and they've been discussing this very thing recently. :) They're very knowledgeable and helpful and I adore the group that I'm in. 


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#23 of 33 Old 11-12-2013, 07:07 AM
 
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Ugh, I just got it again. This is stupid.

 

"Because you're new here, your post is being held for moderation. Once approved by a moderator, it will be published on the site. Thanks for your patience."

glad to see you were able to post- thanks!!

 

I would still report the message you got, you have been posting and I don't know why you got that message, at least ask why it happened to you


 

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#24 of 33 Old 11-12-2013, 07:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keakiepie View Post
 

 

I absolutely believe that the outbreak is vaccine induced. I'm not sure that I believe that more cleanliness is responsible for transmission (especially considering the most common method of transmission of polio is ingestion of fecal matter), but I will agree that hyper sanitization of ALL the things!! is generally not helpful for our immune systems' development. :)

 

Here are a couple links regarding the polio and tonsillectomy relationship, for you and anyone else curious:

 

edited to remove one link -Viola

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1620872/

thanks for the ncbi link - I had not read that prior-interseting 

 

OT- I know a child that recently had their tonsils removed and has had more "colds" now :irked 


 

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#25 of 33 Old 11-12-2013, 07:12 AM
 
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glad to see you were able to post- thanks!!

 

I would still report the message you got, you have been posting and I don't know why you got that message, at least ask why it happened to you

 

Yeah, I may do that. I didn't type anything different when I broke it into two posts - maybe it was too long and flagged something? I'm not sure. 


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#26 of 33 Old 11-13-2013, 07:15 PM
 
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I wondered about Syrians and those living in areas with large numbers of refugees. I even posted a thread in the general forum. Mama, I am not an INV mama (I am selective/delay) so this forum isn't really for me to participate. Posting to say that I worry that if affording IPV is an issue that suggestions like having titers checked may be out of the question as well - so much of what we tend to talk about depends on where we live and what sort of care we have access to. I realize that you may well not be up for a big debate but I think if I were in your position, I would want to post in the general vaccine forum to find resources that may not have been shared yet here. News stories for the origins, spread, and vaccination campaign are ongoing. Which ones feel compelling probably depends on one's world view. 


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#27 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for your suggestion, ICMama.

 

I would probably also do selective/delayed vaccines if that was available here. As it is, such a choice is not available here; the only choice available is to vaccinate your kid with 4+ vaccines at once - every time.  

 

In fact, one of the main reasons I am hesitant to give them the IPV is that it is a combo shot, with 3 other vaccines. And I would have their titers checked if I were going to go ahead and vaccinate. But is there a point in getting them checked if I dont end up vaccinating anyway??

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#28 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 05:06 AM
 
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I'm not sure what you mean. You would have the benefit of knowing whether or not there are antibodies already present, which would make the decision to get the vax or not get the vax a whole lot simpler. For me, that would be valuable regardless of whether or not I decided to vaccinate.

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#29 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah I guess I would have the benefit of knowing at least but what I meant is that the presence (or lack of) antibodies probably wouldnt be the deciding factor in whether or not I vax.

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#30 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 08:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissMuffet View Post
 

Yeah I guess I would have the benefit of knowing at least but what I meant is that the presence (or lack of) antibodies probably wouldnt be the deciding factor in whether or not I vax.

just wondering here - IF you showed presence for antibodies why would you still vac?


 

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