Here We Go Again: Deconstructing "Leaving The Anti-Vaccine Movement" - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 80 Old 02-10-2014, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Boy, those members of VoicesForVaccines sure think in lockstep, don't they?  It's the same pattern that we saw in Amy Parker's article.  

Here we go again.

Megan Sandlin is a formerly super-crunchy, 20-year-old mother of 2, who implies that criticizing vaccines necessitates believing in chemtrails, "intactivism," (way to piss off your religious Jewish friends there) and homeopathy (I'm not saying anything against homeopathy here, as I've never tried it, but clearly I am proof that one doesn't have to believe in homeopathy in order to criticize vaccines).   

 

She says she was forced to rely on sites like Mercola and whale.to for her information?  Perhaps she is just not experienced at researching? The rest of us have managed to find studies on nih.gov, on PubMed, published in the Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, and she's "forced to rely on whatever she can find on Google?"  Her anti-vax friends "put ideas into her head?"  What, she can't think for herself?

She makes it sound like those who question vaccine safety are just squeamish:  "these nasty-sounding ingredients in vaccines."  Come on, girlfriend, we couldn't care less how "nasty-sounding" ingredients are; we do, however, care that some of these ingredients are causally linked with neurological and autoimmune problems.

 

Oh, but wait, she does discover PubMed!  She pulls up hundreds of studies showing that there were safety studies on vaccines!


Did she bother to actually read them?  Or did she not understand that they were set up without true placebos, without comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, without following subjects for more than a few days, without looking for certain adverse reactions, or, in many cases, on people who were unable to read and write (who could not possibly have given "informed consent."  http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/88922/gsk-fined-over-vaccine-trials-14--babies-reported-dead "The charges included experimenting with human beings as well falsifying parental authorizations so babies could participate in the vaccine-trials conducted by the laboratory from 2007 to 2008. "

http://jme.bmj.com/content/31/12/727.full.pdf  

"Although a good general recall of trial concepts was demonstrated, only a small proportion of the participants correctly interpreted and recalled the concepts of randomisation and placebos. Informed consent in this and similarly disadvantaged communities may often be inadequate and new ways to improve understanding of the research process should be explored." 

 

She doesn't seem to realize that the concern so many of us have over vaccine ingredients has nothing to do with the number of antigens in the vaccines, because that's the only argument she attempts to refute.  Apparently, she has either never heard of the recent studies linking other vaccine ingredients, such as adjuvants or preservatives, with autoimmune disorders, with seizures, with neurological disorders, with paralytic disorders.

I was able to find a number of studies on PubMed that show cause for concern, without having to go to either Mercola or Whale.

 

Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe?  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886

"Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community.
 

Vaccines and Febrile Seizures http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23984960

"Vaccine administration is the second leading cause of febrile seizures (FS"

 

Neurodevelopmental disorders after thimerosal-containing vaccines: a brief communication.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12773696

"An association between neurodevelopmental disorders and thimerosal-containing DTaP vaccines was found, but additional studies should be conducted to confirm and extend this study."

 

Neurodevelopmental disorders following thimerosal-containing childhood immunizations:  a follow-up analysis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15764492

"The present study provides additional epidemiological evidence supporting previous epidemiological, clinical and experimental evidence that administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in the United States resulted in a significant number of children developing NDs."

 

Risk of Guillain-Barre Syndrome following H1N1 Influenza Vaccine in Quebec http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22782419

"In Quebec, the 2009 influenza A(H1N1) vaccine was associated with a small but significant risk of GBS." (Guillain-Barre Syndrome, a paralytic disease)

Interesting that Ms. Sandlin waited until her youngest child was 10 months old before deciding to catch her daughters up on vaccines.  She says she was "terribly wrong" about vaccines; how terribly wrong was she, if her children never caught anything AND weren't subjected to any of the risks associated with very early vaccination?

 

Again, she equates questioning and criticizing vaccine safety/efficacy with believing that doctors are "evil," scientists are "trying to kill your kids with toxins," and vaccine researchers are "trying to scam you out of your money."


Just like Amy Parker's trick:  Discredit "them" by painting your former self (as one of "them") as a vacuous, gullible cult devotee, with extreme beliefs and bizarre behavior.

And that's exactly what she does:  "I now view the anti-vaccine movement as a sort of cult, where any sort of questioning gets you kicked out, your crunchy card revoked."

 

Anybody else notice that she's not addressing the scientists who believe there's some cause for concern over vaccine safety?  In her mind, apparently, there is only room for "science" and the diametrically opposed "anti-vaccine movement."  There is no room for intelligent, well-educated parents questioning the science, or, heaven forbid, actually criticizing it.

 

That kind of "us vs them" thinking is more of an indication of cult mentality than the questioning and/or criticizing of science.

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#2 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I read the article.
http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/leaving-the-anti-vaccine-movement/

She sounds weak minded and easily swayed. I don't think it matters what the issue is for her. She was easily swayed toward not vaccinating, and then easily swayed toward fully vaccinating.

Yes, it certainly sounds like she wants to be part of a group that does her thinking for her.
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#3 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 05:55 AM
 
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Deleted - fit better under nuku's thread.  Carry on!


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#4 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:31 AM
 
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"20yr old mother of two' speaks volumes to me...she hasnt the life experience needed to truly make a rational decision, nor does it seem she has the brains for critical thinking that is needed. To me, the article is very  telling in how gullible and easily swayed our younger generation really can be.  Yes, her youth is showing. 

Emmy I couldn't agree more, I wanted to mention this, but didn't want to be accused of being ageist! My eldest is 23 and I can't imagine her being swayed into vaccinating so easily. 

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#5 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:32 AM
 
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I have a few friends who know her personally. She is a nutcase, putting it nicely.

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#6 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:36 AM
 
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"20yr old mother of two' speaks volumes to me...she hasnt the life experience needed to truly make a rational decision, nor does it seem she has the brains for critical thinking that is needed. To me, the article is very  telling in how gullible and easily swayed our younger generation really can be.  Yes, her youth is showing. 

I have to say. I disagree with this. I made the decision to stop vaccinations when my son was 12 months old. I was 22. We're not all gullible and easily swayed. Don't generalize a group of people because of one person.

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#7 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:39 AM
 
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I have a few friends who know her personally. She is a nutcase, putting it nicely.

 

 

Careful - defamation of character.  Not sure if it applies here or not, and she is not here to defend herself.

 

also……:(……..if she is a nutcase.  It makes me even more annoyed with V4V for putting up whatever without caring for their authors.  

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#8 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:42 AM
 
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Emmy I couldn't agree more, I wanted to mention this, but didn't want to be accused of being ageist! My eldest is 23 and I can't imagine her being swayed into vaccinating so easily. 

Agreed.  I defend her right as a mother to make the call to vaccinate or not vaccinate, but her age is a concern when it comes to how much weight we should give her words.

 

I have an almost 18 year old.  He is smart and can argue a point like nobodies business….but he does not have the wisdom that comes with age or life experience to temper his thoughts.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#9 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:43 AM
 
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Do you think V4V gives a sh!t how they make people look when they believe it furthers their agenda? They seem to make a habit of exploiting naive parents.


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#10 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:44 AM
 
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Do you think V4V gives a sh!t how they make people look when they believe it furthers their agenda? They seem to make a habit of exploiting naive parents.

No, I don't.  

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#11 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 06:47 AM
 
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Do you think V4V gives a sh!t how they make people look when they believe it furthers their agenda? They seem to make a habit of exploiting naive parents.

No, I don't.  

This is what makes their efforts so transparent and pathetic (with anyone with a brain cell and a half).

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#12 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:08 AM
 
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Yeah alot of us have been facebook friends with her for years.. and had to delete and block her. She really went off the deep end. I remember a status of hers saying "I wish I could get the girls all of their shots at once." It went from one extreme to another. I have zero respect for her.
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The part about "finding the CDC" and learning the truth.  It was the CDC website that convinced me NOT to vaccinate.  It's been a long time since I really dug into it, so I don't know if the info is still available, but if you really fished around their site, you could read things that were supposed to just be for doctors to read.  It was their dishonesty and deception that put me over the edge.  I couldn't believe the spin they put on things.  They didn't actually deny many, many of the things that non-vaxers say, they just tried to sugar coat it.  I felt that if they were willing to stretch and spin so much with the simple things, what were they doing with the real information?  How could I even remotely trust anything they said, when it was plain they were willing to deceive?  I wish I had time to pull some of it up, but maybe someone else has something on file?  I'd have to just start digging again.

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#14 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have a few friends who know her personally. She is a nutcase, putting it nicely.

 

Yeah, I don't know if this is even relevant.


I know plenty of "nut cases" who have good critical thinking skills.  Some are even brilliant.

 

It could be argued that the author of this Daily Beast article (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/30/the-real-reason-pediatricians-want-you-to-vaccinate-your-kids.html) is clearly both extremely intelligent/well-educated and a total nutcase--his delusions of grandeur and obsessive need to control are obvious. (And he is welcome to come here and defend himself, though he doesn't seem to have been confident enough to let his name appear on the article!)
 

 My criticism of the V4V article has nothing to do with whether or not anyone thinks the author is a nut-case.  I went to her blog, and she describes herself as " a feminist, an atheist, pansexual, and polyamorous." That does strike me as extremely...unusual, especially for someone who haspublicly expressed a desperation for acceptance into a peer group. 

 

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#15 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:37 AM
 
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Well, I felt it was. I have been in several groups with her on facebook. She birthed her babies at home, breastfed, etc. Decided not to vaccinate, and then one day just completely changed her mind and started attacking her friends who had chosen not to vaccinate their families. Seems nutty to me.

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#16 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:41 AM
 
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The part about "finding the CDC" and learning the truth.  It was the CDC website that convinced me NOT to vaccinate. 

Ditto, to a degree.

 

I initially became non-vax in an era when information was harder (not impossible) to get….and I could not justify giving my babies a vaccine when health care professionals could not even tell me how prevalent a diseases was.  

 

However, the info in the CDC largely cemented my decision to remain non-vax.  It helped take the fear out of some diseases and gave me information on prevalence data. 

 

Sometimes you have to dig at the CDC - soundbites on the parent pages do not always line up with what is said elsewhere (I would not say they lie, but they cherry pick their own data and they do manipulate it in interesting ways)

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#17 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I see.
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#18 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:45 AM
 
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The most significant thing about the article is that it says a lot about Voices for Vaccines, that they would publish it.

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#19 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:45 AM
 
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Well, I felt it was. I have been in several groups with her on facebook. She birthed her babies at home, breastfed, etc. Decided not to vaccinate, and then one day just completely changed her mind and started attacking her friends who had chosen not to vaccinate their families. Seems nutty to me.

Ok.  I did not mean to critisize in post 10.   I struggle with what is ok to post online with regard to privacy, negative asessment, etc….so I think my previous post was coming more from there. Carry on :)  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#20 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 07:47 AM
 
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The most significant thing about the article is that it says a lot about Voices for Vaccines, that they would publish it.

This. It's like: "Is this the best they have got?" 


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#21 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 08:19 AM
 
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I think the only stories Voices for Vaccines could publish that would make any case for vaccinating, would be stories from parents who didn't vaccinate, and followed the non-vaccinating protocol such as no Tylenol, no fever reducing, high dose sodium ascorbate for pertussis, vitamin A for measles, etc, and still had a child die or permanently injured by a vaccine available disease. There's no way I can be swayed, by, "my child got chickenpox, and was itchy for a week, and now he's fine!" But Voices for Vaccines isn't even doing that. These are parents whose children suffered absolutely no harm from not vaccinating. And then they write, "I finally vaccinated, and my children handled it great, so that's proof I was wrong!" Well, that's awesome, and perhaps other children could benefit from the same very delayed schedules their children benefitted from.

 

I don't mean to say I would be swayed by a story of disease injury or death, because, as sad as those few stories are, I know the risk of vaccines is higher, and vaccine injury is more likely. But I still would be empathetic and understand where a parent is coming from if their child died or was permanently injured by a vaccine available disease.

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I must say, I am very grateful that Megan Sandlin mentioned the FaceBook group, "Great Mothers (and others) Who Question Vaccines."  It's an excellent resource!   They also have a website http://www.greatmothersquestioningvaccines.com

 

Interesting, though, that she doesn't mention any of the gazillion mainstream studies posted there, but says that she was forced to resort to Google, Mercola, and Whale for her info. .

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#23 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 08:49 AM
 
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I reread the V4V piece and noticed this:
 
 

"So I did a Google search for “vaccine ingredients” and was shocked by what I found. Could there really be all of these nasty-sounding ingredients in vaccines, I wondered? I went to the CDC’s website and found package inserts. I didn’t understand much of what I read, but it did sound pretty scary…"

 

Package inserts are not, as far as I know, found on CDC pages.  Any proof otherwise?  I took a look and they do not seem to be there.  If you click on "package inserts" in  her article,  it goes to skeptical raptor ( a fairly biased site.... it is funny she disparages Mercola but links to a Skeptic sites)


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#24 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 09:03 AM
 
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Dorit Reiss has a penchant for linking to skeptic sites, and she is heavily involved with V4V.

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#25 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by emmy526 

 

"20yr old mother of two' speaks volumes to me...she hasnt the life experience needed to truly make a rational decision, nor does it seem she has the brains for critical thinking that is needed. To me, the article is very telling in how gullible and easily swayed our younger generation really can be. Yes, her youth is showing."

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Originally Posted by lilbsmama
 
"I have to say. I disagree with this. I made the decision to stop vaccinations when my son was 12 months old. I was 22. We're not all gullible and easily swayed. Don't generalize a group of people because of one person"

I follow Emmy with this - I'm only 30, had my DD at 28 because at 16 or even 22 years old, I had zero interest to have kids and was in no position to make sound decisions.  I posted more on the other thread about the age thing so I won't repeat here, but naivety and critical thinking are things that change with age and life experiences.  I'm a vastly different person now than I was 10 years ago and I think that's true for most people....time changes many things, including ones ability to think and rationalize without getting bogged down by emotion.

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#26 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 09:11 AM
 
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"So I did a Google search for “vaccine ingredients” and was shocked by what I found. Could there really be all of these nasty-sounding ingredients in vaccines, I wondered? I went to the CDC’s website and found package inserts. I didn’t understand much of what I read, but it did sound pretty scary…"

 

While not a big debunking point, package inserts are not, as far as I know, found on CDC pages.  Any proof otherwise?  I took a look and they do not seem to be there.  If you click on "package inserts" in  her article,  it goes to skeptical raptor ( a fairly biased site.... it is funny she disparages Mercola but links to a Skeptic sites)

Last time I looked, they were available on the cdc's site.

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None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.shine.gif

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#27 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 09:13 AM
 
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Last time I looked, they were available on the cdc's site.

link, please, when you have the time.

 

They are on the FDA site, but not the CDC as far as I know.

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/approvedproducts/ucm093830.htm

 

(and really, an individual getting the two mixed up is not a huge deal…except V4V did not pick up on this when they printed the article)

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#28 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 09:20 AM
 
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I follow Emmy with this - I'm only 30, had my DD at 28 because at 16 or even 22 years old, I had zero interest to have kids and was in no position to make sound decisions.  I posted more on the other thread about the age thing so I won't repeat here, but naivety and critical thinking are things that change with age and life experiences.  I'm a vastly different person now than I was 10 years ago and I think that's true for most people....time changes many things, including ones ability to think and rationalize without getting bogged down by emotion.

 

 

But that doesn't mean that every person that age is naive and lacks critical thinking skills. That's insulting. Yes, we do get better and wiser with age, but that doesn't mean that a 22 year old mother is incapable of making decisions regarding the health of her child, and to say so is arrogant and presumptuous. Just because you had no desire for children at that age, and didn't find yourself able to rationalize decisions, doesn't automatically make that true for the rest of the population. Having children at a later age doesn't make you a better mother than anyone else. I realize I am defensive, but don't make a broad statement about a large group of people and not expect to ruffle some feathers.

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#29 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 09:21 AM
 
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link, please, when you have the time.

 

They are on the FDA site, but not the CDC as far as I know.

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/approvedproducts/ucm093830.htm

 

(and really, an individual getting the two mixed up is not a huge deal…except V4V did not pick up on this when they printed the article)

Last time I checked may or may not have been a few years ago.:D I may have intertwined the two, as you say.


None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.shine.gif

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#30 of 80 Old 02-11-2014, 09:26 AM
 
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There's another rags to riches/non-vax to vax story on V4V that I find fascinating because it starts off almost word for word the same as this one: http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/from-anti-vax-to-pro-vax/

Quote:
 I have always been into natural health and foods, so when I first learned about all of the scary-sounding ingredients in vaccines, I was alarmed.

What, do they hand out a template to these people and tell them fill in the blanks?!

 

Then we get down to the "change" where she reads a Paul Offit book and suddenly sees the light:

Quote:
Seth Mnookin’s book, The Panic Virus, had just been released; it sounded interesting, so I gave it a read. Wow. It made me seriously consider at least selectively vaccinating. He cites Dr. Paul Offit quite a bit, so I grudgingly decided to read his books, too. I devoured the books in one week, and during that time, every anti-vax argument I had began to crumble away.

Ok I'm going to change the analogy here to something near and dear to me as a dog trainer. I use clicker training and positive reinforcement a la Karen Pryor. This would be like me reading a Cesar Millan book about domination and punitive training and claiming to have come to the light on dog behavior from someone who's never studied behavior a day in his life and is only invested in his own old school methods because they bring him money.

 

It's all the same.  Every one of these epiphanies is identical to one another in form and function.  Makes me think of the mad libs where the only things that can change in the story are a few nouns and verbs that you pick at random....mad libs for vaccines - it could be a hit!

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