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#1 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My husband and I have started talking about vaccines again. Originally we were not vax for religious/spiritual reasons but my faith has gone through a lot of changes over the past two years. DD is almost one and we both agree that we want to put it off until her gut matures, if we vax at all. I feel conflicted. I don't want to vax out of fear, but I also don't want to not vax because I'm stuck on an idea that I believed in the past. 

 

I'm not ready yet to post on the debate forum because I think that would just be too much for me right now. I seriously feel like vaccines are a lose/lose situation. 

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#2 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 09:44 AM
 
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Your daughter is perfect right now. Even though your spiritual beliefs have changed, why would you want to allow her to undergo invasive medical procedures unless it was necessary?

 

You said you don't want to vaccinate out of fear. What are your specific fears?

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#3 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 11:50 AM
 
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Hi Op,

 

I am a little lost.  I guess I am wondering what, exactly, has changed?

 

I will speak for myself.  I am not religious.  I am spiritual however (isn't everybody?)  I have a number of thoughts that circulate in my brain on vaccines and spirituality/ethics.  I will share them and hope they are helpful, somewhat.

 

 I believe the body is a temple.  I believe if we treat it as such, it will probably do well. Good food, sleep, hygiene, exercise, low stress etc are not gaurentees of health, but they do help stack the deck.  For that reason alone, I am very careful and considered about what I put into my body. Vaccines in a healthy individual in a non-outbreak situation do not pass the temple test.

 

I am not overly thrilled with the use of diploid cel lines in certain vaccines.  I don't like that they are making products off fetuses  even if it was only a few fetuses aborted voluntarily many years ago.  They can do better. 

 

 I am not overly thrilled with pharmaceutical companies.  I will give them my money if I deem I have to or that it is in my best interest - but a minor or incredibly rare disease isn't it. 

 

I very much believe in bodily integrity.  I would have difficulty giving a vaccine to a child for a disease that does not circulate.  Example:  Polio or diphtheria. Tetanus to a degree.  Vaccines carry mainstream accepted risks - do I  have the right to put them at even a small risk for a disease they have virtually no chance of getting?  I don't think I do. 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#4 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 12:51 PM
 
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I fall in line similarly to Kathy on this one - spiritual but not religious.  I was raised Catholic, Catholic school k-8, alter server, Confirmation, the whole nine yards....but not so much by choice, it's what my mother wanted.  Once I hit college all that sort of stopped and the only time I've stepped foot into a church since is for weddings or funerals - I don't even go through the motions anymore because it feels far to hypocritical to do so and then disappear from the church again.  I wish my state had a philosophical exemption because I definitely feel more in line with that, but I can certainly justify, that in my own little spiritual beliefs, vaccination doesn't have a place and I'm not sure what kind of changes would have to occur for my beliefs to shift.  I believe that mother nature doesn't screw up - at least not frequently and usually not repetitively with the same screw ups.  There's always variety in genetics, but that doesn't always add up to bad things.  So to argue that humans are somehow lacking and that we *need* these types of intervention for survival as a species.....well clearly if that was the case none of us would even be here today.  We've done well enough adapting without them.  I also feel like there's a trade off to all of this and that no matter how many times you try and fool mother nature, she always finds away.  Eliminate one batch of diseases in an attempt to make humans "immortal", if you will, eventually it will catch up with you down the line.  Be it mutations, new diseases, or just lifelong suffering of autoimmune disorders, we're disrupting the natural flow of disease and it's going to come back and bite us in the ass sooner or later.

 

So guess it depends where you are in terms of - what triggered this change?

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#5 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 02:30 PM
 
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I hear your concern, friend... I don't have any advice to give you. Do you have anyone around you whose opinion you trust that you could go to about this?

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#6 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post

 

 So to argue that humans are somehow lacking and that we *need* these types of intervention for survival as a species.....well clearly if that was the case none of us would even be here today.  We've done well enough adapting without them.  I also feel like there's a trade off to all of this and that no matter how many times you try and fool mother nature, she always finds away.  Eliminate one batch of diseases in an attempt to make humans "immortal", if you will, eventually it will catch up with you down the line.  Be it mutations, new diseases, or just lifelong suffering of autoimmune disorders, we're disrupting the natural flow of disease and it's going to come back and bite us in the ass sooner or later.

 

So guess it depends where you are in terms of - what triggered this change?

 

I both agree and disagree with this statement. Yes, the more we try to prevent an illness the worse it is going to become. Mutation is the big argument regarding the need to keep these vaccine preventable diseases under wraps (among my pro-vax friends.) With that said, I don't agree with the statement that vaccines have done nothing for our health. Back in the day it was common to have 6+ kids and only have a few of them survive.... whether that was fixed by medicine or better living situations... I'm not sure. Probably both. Our population is an all time high. Yes, we would have survived as a species but not at the rate that we are now e.g. overpopulation problems. 

 

I wish that there weren't so much crap in vaccines. My husband has always liked the idea of them but had distrust of the government and big pharma. He's mentioned a few times that if he could get vaccines from other countries, he would be more willing to vaccinate Jaya.

 

As for myself, I used to believe, and still do, that we should not be putting synthetic things inside our body. I try to stick to herbal remedies; however, I've become much more lax with myself. I used to be able to do herbals and rest with a migraine. I've found myself popping asprin a few times because I just can't do that anymore with a kid. Plus as Jaya gets older, I'm going to stop breastfeeding at some point. I'm not afraid of her getting whooping cough, or chicken pox, or measles even. I also don't really care about what others think of us. 

 

I suppose the best way to describe it is that before Jaya was born and when she was very little the idea of vaccinating her felt WRONG. wrong, wrong, skin crawl wrong. However, I have been finding myself thinking "maybe one day." I just wish it was easier to selectively vax. Like I know nothing about diphirea and after looking it up it looks freaking intense. However whooping cough and tentnus doesn't really bother me. 

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#7 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 04:37 PM
 
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If you think vaccines had anything to do with reducing the child mortality of the past, I recommend reading Suzanne Humphries book, Dissolving Illusions. Since the 1960s the US child mortality rate has increased from 12th lowest to 41st lowest amongst industrialized nations, and if all those babies and children aren't dying of infectious diseases what are they dying of? We have replaced self-limiting childhood diseases for chronic illness and neurological damage. If you look at the measles death rate for the 50s and 60s, 1 in 100,000, you can see how things were going and had we put the brakes on vaccination, I am sure it would have only gotten better, same for other diseases. When Sweden halted the pertussis vaccine for 20 years the death rate went down and the disease was mostly seen in the 3 to 10 age group when it is easily manageable. My kids had very mild cases at age 9 and 7 (ish).

 

You can tell your DH that the vaccines offered by other countries are no better than the ones in the US and there is no such thing as a safe vaccine, nor can there be a 'green' vaccine. There are no guarantees in life, but one thing I can control (at least for now) is not injecting my children with highly toxic chemical cocktails for diseases that are either not dangerous (and can even be beneficial) or diseases so rare that they will never encounter them. I also trust in the ability of an intact immune system to do what it was designed to do.

 

But at the end of the day everyone has their own comfort level and path to walk, mine has taken me as far away from vaccines as you can get. My decision is constantly being reaffirmed by by two super healthy, well adjusted teens and our sweetheart 3 year old dog.


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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#8 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 05:53 PM
 
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Well, until you are 100% sure that you are ok with vaxxing, then why not wait? You can't undo them once they are done.  She's not yet a year, you still have a ways to go for her immune system to reach maturity, and a ways to go before she would truly be able to effectively communicate that something was wrong and alert you to a vaccine reaction. Unless you use daycare you don't have any looming deadlines for either vaxxing or filing for an exemption for school.  She's at an age now where just about any of the childhood diseases would be pretty mild and easy to get through and it wouldn't be until her early teen years that you might want to revisit this if you were concerned about her coming down with something as an adult - at which point you could titer first to see if she's been exposed to anything and is already immune.  And really at that point you could involve her in the decision of whether or not she wanted to become vaxxed and for what.

 

Like Mirzam pointed out, we don't rank so well in terms of childhood mortality rates, and they aren't really dying of communicable diseases either.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_All_Deaths_By_Age_Group_2010-a.pdf

 

Top 3 causes of death in the under 1 group:  Congenital abnormalities, short gestation, SIDS.  All of these can be caused as a result of drug and or vaccine reactions.

 

As for Diphtheria....the CDC must not be highly concerned because we don't even have the antitoxin in the US, it's brought in after a consult via physician and CDC, from Brazil.

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#9 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 05:56 PM
 
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With that said, I don't agree with the statement that vaccines have done nothing for our health. Back in the day it was common to have 6+ kids and only have a few of them survive.... whether that was fixed by medicine or better living situations... I'm not sure. Probably both. Our population is an all time high. Yes, we would have survived as a species but not at the rate that we are now e.g. overpopulation problems. 

 

I have done the math.  The only vaccine available disease that had a  high enough prevalence rate and mortality rate to impact family size in any significant way is diphtheria.  If you get real comfortable with prevalence rates of diseases and mortality rate, you will see this is true.  

 

 

 

 

As for myself, I used to believe, and still do, that we should not be putting synthetic things inside our body. I try to stick to herbal remedies; however, I've become much more lax with myself. I used to be able to do herbals and rest with a migraine. I've found myself popping asprin a few times because I just can't do that anymore with a kid. Plus as Jaya gets older, I'm going to stop breastfeeding at some point. I'm not afraid of her getting whooping cough, or chicken pox, or measles even. I also don't really care about what others think of us. 

 

Bolding mine.  I don't think this is a big deal - pharmaceuticals do not have to be an all or nothing issue.  I think it is perfectly reasonable to use drugs to cure, alleviate pain, or even (sometimes) to manage a condition….. that is quite different from using drugs prophylactically against diseases that are likely to be mild or are very rare.  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#10 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 07:13 PM
 
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As many of you saw we had a member posting in the INV forum who did not realize that we have specific guidelines for posting. There are so many ways to find a thread here that it will happen that a new member chances on an interesting topic and joins without reading the guidelines or maybe without realizing which forum they're posting in. It's happened to me!  I saw the flags and have let the new member know. I removed the post and the post in response. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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#11 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 07:13 PM
 
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My perspective:  if I could do it all over again, I wish that I had never allowed my kids to be vaccinated.

My kids have all had serious adverse reactions to vaccines.  They have never had any difficulties with the diseases that they did get (whether or not there was a vaccine available for that disease).

I suspect you will find far, far more mothers who regret having vaccinated than mothers who wish they had vaccinated.

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#12 of 16 Old 03-20-2014, 07:25 PM
 
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I apologize if I offended anyone. Those were not my intentions! I respect every mothers decision for their child whether it's my personal choice or not. We all do what we feel best for our children and I never attended on pushing my beliefs on any of y'all! God bless and I hope you all have a wonderful evening. smile.gif
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#13 of 16 Old 03-21-2014, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, until you are 100% sure that you are ok with vaxxing, then why not wait? You can't undo them once they are done.  She's not yet a year, you still have a ways to go for her immune system to reach maturity, and a ways to go before she would truly be able to effectively communicate that something was wrong and alert you to a vaccine reaction. 

 

This is where we are right now. I can never take back vaccinating her so she has stayed unpoked. I wouldn't do anything until at least 2 years. My husband has just been bringing it up a lot lately (probably getting nagged by the inlaws, who knows.) He went on a rant the other day ago about how measles, chix pocks, whooping cough, aren't really deadly but are extremely annoying. He asked me if we really would be ok dealing with oatmeal baths and crying and fevers for weeks. It's not enough of a reason for me.

 

Honestly, I'm falling into the "duty to society/others," thing. That, really, would be my only reason to vaccinate her because I'm not afraid of her getting the diseases. It would be nice if she never got them but I have come to terms with the fact that if she is non-vax she will likely get mild cases of everything. 

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#14 of 16 Old 03-21-2014, 06:01 AM
 
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This is where we are right now. I can never take back vaccinating her so she has stayed unpoked. I wouldn't do anything until at least 2 years. My husband has just been bringing it up a lot lately (probably getting nagged by the inlaws, who knows.) He went on a rant the other day ago about how measles, chix pocks, whooping cough, aren't really deadly but are extremely annoying. He asked me if we really would be ok dealing with oatmeal baths and crying and fevers for weeks. It's not enough of a reason for me.

 

Honestly, I'm falling into the "duty to society/others," thing. That, really, would be my only reason to vaccinate her because I'm not afraid of her getting the diseases. It would be nice if she never got them but I have come to terms with the fact that if she is non-vax she will likely get mild cases of everything. 

 

The only VADs my kids have had are chicken pox, mild one week off school, some itching (controlled with homeopathics), no fever, no crying etc; and possibly whooping cough, an annoying cough at night for a few weeks. I don't expect them to come down with measles, mumps and rubella, as these diseases are really not in circulation, apart from the out 20 person outbreak here and there. I remember a poster on here who had her kid/s titered and they came back with antibodies to diphtheria, of course the kid/s had never had diphtheria!

 

I would never potentially sacrifice my child for the greater good, it is my responsibility to keep them safe from harm as it is the responsibility of others to keep thier children safe. Of course the 'duty to others/society' is based on vaccines actually working as advertised, I am far from sure they do. Actually, I will go further and say they are a nonsense, which makes the the altruistic argument ridiculous.


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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#15 of 16 Old 03-21-2014, 07:09 AM
 
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  Inconditus…..I am wondering if perhaps there are too many pro-vax influences in your life ?  You mentionned pro-vax friends, and then pro-vax inlaws…the world can be very pro-vax (and it is the most intense when your child is young)  The media is very pro-vax as well.  While I would never advocate cutting friends and family out of your life, I would advocate telling them that you need to research things more and that the topic is not up for discussion.  Ever. It is your child and your decisions.  You do have the right to have as much time and space to make this decisions as you need.  I am sure there are some pro-vaxxers reading along who are thinking "yeah, well she shouldn't just listen to non-vaxxers either!"  True :)  Don't listen to any of us.  Make some time to get still within yourself and figure out what is what.

 

I will say that you have said two things that suggest to me that you do need to research a fair bit more before you can make an informed decision.  

 

" Back in the day it was common to have 6+ kids and only have a few of them survive.... whether that was fixed by medicine or better living situations... I'm not sure. Probably both. Our population is an all time high. Yes, we would have survived as a species but not at the rate that we are now e.g. overpopulation problems. "

 

I have done the math.  The only vaccine available disease that had a  high enough prevalence rate and mortality rate to impact family size in any significant way is diphtheria.  If you get real comfortable with prevalence rates of diseases and mortality rate, you will see this is true.  

 

and

 

"It would be nice if she never got them but I have come to terms with the fact that if she is non-vax she will likely get mild cases of everything."

 

I wish.  Most unvaxxed kids get nothing.  Some get chicken pox and influenza.  A few may get pertussis.  That is it.  Take a look at the prevalence rate for most diseases in the CDC Pink Book, appendix G.  Most diseases do not circulate.  

 

 

So…you should be in research mode.  It is not a bad place to be - and we have all been there.   If you feel like your religious or spiritual reasoning is shaky, maybe it is time to look into some of the other reason people do or do not vaccinate?

 

Good luck!  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#16 of 16 Old 03-21-2014, 10:05 AM
 
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I would never potentially sacrifice my child for the greater good, it is my responsibility to keep them safe from harm as it is the responsibility of others to keep thier children safe. Of course the 'duty to others/society' is based on vaccines actually working as advertised, I am far from sure they do. Actually, I will go further and say they are a nonsense, which makes the the altruistic argument ridiculous.

Bolded because I love this statement.  My first priority is for my own child, not someone else.  Ironically if everyone followed this thought process we might all benefit.  If I do my part to support my child's immune system and keep her home when she's sick then that does work towards the greater good.  She's already had vaccine reactions and I would never compromise her further to help someone else out because I don't believe vaccines work in that way.  I feel sorry for those parents with immunocompromised kids, I truly do, but It's ultimately their responsibility to educate themselves and do what they can to make the best of the situation and no one should be putting the blame on anyone here.  I have a good friend, just had her baby 5 weeks early, he's home and doing great, but I've yet to go over and see them because DD and I have been getting over a cold/bronchitis and I wouldn't want to risk spreading anything to him because even though he's breastfeeding, he's a preemie, it would be too much on his little system.  So I'll wait as long as I have to and suck it up that I only get to see pictures until I'm confident that we are no longer potentially spreading anything.  Be great if everyone thought this was vs other friends who've posted the statement that anyone desiring to see their kid must be up to date with DTaP and flu vax at least 2 weeks prior to visiting! banghead.gif

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