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#1 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hello to Everyone,

 

We are expected our first baby any day now and have been researching vaccines for about 6 months. This web site being one of our resources.

 

We have found A LOT of information out there as you all have seen. We're not rooting for vaccines and we are nervous about the decision.

 

Mom and I are pretty young parents. Being born into the era of vaccines, we both have been highly vaccinated our entire lives. So, its hard not to sway on the decision.

 

After researching we have brought the topic up to family and friends and have only had one person even consider it a healthy choice.

 

No matter what source or information we bring to the attention of our family and friends they constantly end up saying something along the lines of "It's worrisome to me that people are willing to not vaccinate because of 'rumors' over keeping their baby safe."

 

The only legitimate argument backing us in their minds is the questionable choices our government agencies have made regarding the welfare of its country in the past.

 

We have so many questions we're researching with so many sources...

 

What information has helped to solidify the choice of not vaccinating for you/your baby?

 

We're not even close to being done researching vaccines. Your time is greatly appreciated in helping to calm our anxious minds over this.

 

-Katelynjared

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#2 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 06:49 PM
 
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Welcome! I started off on the fence and thought I'd fall into a selective/delayed category, but after DD had severe reactions at 2 and 5 mos it was enough to solidify my decision to stop all vaxxes at that point.  I wish I could go back and remove that vaccines, but that's not an option, so my best advise is that you can't take a vaccine away - so unless you are 100% percent confident that you want to vax, you're better off waiting.  You can always do them later if you really feel they will fit into your lives then, but don't do them just because you feel pressure or have a lack of support.  I've been lucky to have my parents support the decision - IL's I had to basically yell at so they'd stop questioning, and the rest either don't know or don't approve.  But you know what? It's not their place to approve.  Your child, your decisions.

 

Hardest part for us has been finding a doc that would work with us and not against us.  We left the original pediatrician after being told we'd be dropped for not attending well visits on their schedule....now we see a great ND who's incredibly supportive and that does help.  Sometimes you just have to ask around.  I got the ND recommendation through my chiropractor who also uses her so definitely look around for someone who won't fight you every step of the way.  Good luck with everything!

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#3 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 07:14 PM
 
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Personally, I would lay off discussing your decisions with friends and family.  It is 100% your call and not theirs - do not ask for input on something they really do not have input on.

 

As per resources, i would start with:

 

The CDC Pink Book, including the appendixes.

Dr. Sear Vaccine Book - he is technically pro-vaccine(ish and as defined by him) but at least he can prioritize vaccines and diseases and discuss issues - which is more than you will get elsewhere.  Get it from you library.

I like NVIC -it has a lot of information and it does cite it's sources.  

 

The information that solidified my decision not to vaccinate is knowledge of diseases.  I genuinely feel that most diseases are either benign or rare (and likely to be rare even if every stopped vaccinating).  There are a few exceptions, but most diseases fall into benign or rare.  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#4 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for contributing.

We had that exact thought, we can't take the vaccine out.

We are looking for a pediatrician who will be more helpful than critical.

Katelyn's ogbyn said she supports our choice not to have Katelyn vaccinated but as she walked out the door, leaving no time for discussion she said "But the baby is getting the hep b vac.".

It was a slap to the face. We're going to be reading every document handed to us, closely.
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#5 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I will get my hands on the recommended reading material asap! Thank you.
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#6 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 07:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katelynjared View Post

Thank you for contributing.

We had that exact thought, we can't take the vaccine out.

We are looking for a pediatrician who will be more helpful than critical.

Katelyn's ogbyn said she supports our choice not to have Katelyn vaccinated but as she walked out the door, leaving no time for discussion she said "But the baby is getting the hep b vac.".

It was a slap to the face. We're going to be reading every document handed to us, closely.

Hep. b in my opinion should only be considered for those who test positive for hep. b during pregnancy.

 

If you do not want the baby to have the hep. b shot, you need to do the following:

 

1.  Put it in the birth plan in writing

2.  verbally tell everyone in labour/delivery room

3.  accompany baby wherever baby goes - hep. b is often given right away after birth, while they are weighing and cleaning up baby.  Verbally remind anyone who is working on baby - no hep. b shots.

 

Do you know if you are expecting a boy or girl?

 

Congrats and welcome to MDC!

 

PS:  both the CDC pink Book and NVIC are online.  The vaccine book by Sears should be available at the library.   

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#7 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We love the recommended action plan for the hep b vac. We'll be on top of it now!

The baby is a girl.
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#8 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 08:13 PM
 
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Congrats!

 

You'll have to get used to that doctor bullying stuff.  It can be pretty bad at times, and really hard to stand your ground.  I've found that it's best to not argue, just ask for time.  So, when the baby is born, and you are refusing the hep b, it is better to say, "Oh, thank you so much for that information! We'd feel so much better waiting until her two month appointment, like that other chart shows.  We'll talk to our doctor then.  What else should we write down to ask about?"  Now you have two months to find a ped that won't hassle you when you talk to them about the hep b.  (and etc). 

 

Just recently, I used that tactic.  Instead of saying no, and getting into a deep discussion, I just said, "Oh, wow.  I really appreciate where you are coming from on that.  I need a little time to let it all sink in, and talk with my husband.  I'll get back to you soon."  It removes the knee jerk response problem, and gives some space so you can think clearly about what you would really like to say and why.

 

Obviously, at some point, you need to find a provider that respects your decisions.

 

Right after a baby is born isn't a good time to be the weird parent with lots of stuff you do or don't want to do, so knowing how to roll the ball a little down the road can keep it from seeming like you are just being difficult.

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#9 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 08:52 PM
 
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My children have all had severe reactions to vaccines--and they were all different reactions. One had a seizure reaction, one had a severe, blistering, oozing rash that lasted for months, and one was unconscious for two days.

Our pediatrician agreed with our decision to hold off on the birth hep b shot, and even put a note in the chart, but the hospital nurses vaccinated him anyway, while I was in the shower, without either my permission or knowledge.

Unless you or your wife are carriers of hep B, there is no reason to vaccinate your baby at birth. That should be discussed with your pediatrician AND your obgyn, if your OBGYN has any responsibility in administering the vaccine. You will probably have better luck with your OBGYN if you tell her that you only want to delay the birth dose until the 1-or 2-month checkup, like FisherFamily says, above.

Of course, you can change your mind by then and decide you don't want it then, either, but your OBGYN will no longer be in the picture.

If either of you is positive for hep b, though, that's a different story.
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#10 of 32 Old 04-11-2014, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We just added notes to the birthplan.

Great tools! Thank you FisherFamily

Taximom5- I appreciate you sharing your expierences. Ill be watching like a hawk.
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#11 of 32 Old 04-12-2014, 06:40 AM
 
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If you are going to research vaccines individually, after Hep. B,  I  suggest looking at pertussis, rota and hib.   Those are vaccines designed for infants for diseases that occasionally circulate.  Don't get scared and do fact check statistics.  Pertussis, for example, gets a lot of media attention and does occasionally affect (and 10% of the time, kill) young babies - but:

 

a) 10 baby deaths (for example) in a country of over 300 million makes the chance very, very small

 

b)  most babies who die are too young for vaccination, and there is not much proof vaccines in pregnancy are effective or safe.  

 

Ok - more on rota in a few minutes!  I have to go to work, where I will continue to post sneakily on the computer in my down time.

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#12 of 32 Old 04-12-2014, 07:00 AM
 
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In addition to the above suggestions about avoiding hep b in the hospital, you may want to get a copy of mom's bloodwork showing she is negative for it. There have been a couple of cases of bullying from doctors over the issue when mom doesn't have current records showing and they get threatened with and/or have had the child removed from their care for trying to refuse it. Not to scare you, but just something to be aware of. We had no problems refusing it with our last child but I did have a copy of my blood work and a note from our family physician just in case. I have had a hospital misplace test results before.

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#13 of 32 Old 04-12-2014, 07:23 AM
 
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Yes! A copy.of the blood work and of.strep b status. I've personally seen bullying and coersion over both. Moms records were downstairs in the ob office, and, supposedly, couldnt be accessed by labor and delivery.

Baby received hep b and antibiotics, among other unnecessary treatments. Mom felt she couldn't refuse. Doc said baby would be treated as heb b positive if mom didnt consent.to the shot. (Which is bad medicine, by the way. If there was a true concern mom was positive, then baby needed immune globulin and the shot. Doc was just bullying.).

Then, after separating mom and baby (dad was out of town at birth so mom was totally alone, baby was born unexpectedly a few weeks early.), mom was brought to the nicu. Three doctors stood over her, and terrified her with how her baby could die etc etc if she didnt consent to antibiotics.

It was really pretty awful.
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#14 of 32 Old 04-12-2014, 07:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FisherFamily View Post
 

Right after a baby is born isn't a good time to be the weird parent with lots of stuff you do or don't want to do, so knowing how to roll the ball a little down the road can keep it from seeming like you are just being difficult.

LOL this was totally me :wink  I ha a 3 page birth plan (I sorta pulled one offline and adapted it to my needs) and I gave it to my midwife ahead of time, one copy hanging in the room on the door and another in my file.  All the nurses I dealt with (25hr labor so quite a few!) stopped to read it and even if they thought I was a nutjob they were incredibly respectful and never let it show.  The nurse who was there for the actual delivery was sweet as could be, had never seen a pain med-free delivery and was just about in tears when my daughter was born because she was so excited to have seen all of it (I had Pitocin so pretty intense contractions but I don't react well to meds of any kind so opted out of the epidural for my own safety).  So hopefully you get luky and don't fine a nurse on a power trip.  NOW, that said, the hospital I delivered at ha a separate wing for postpartum and that nurses over there were a completely different variety and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them - very harsh bedside manner, I was chastised like a little child for daring to nap with my DD on the bed, and woken at all hours of the night.

 

As for the Hep B, it is one we did later on at the pediatrician (def wish we'd skiped it) but when DD was born, she went directly on my chest for delayed cord cutting, and when I was delivering the placenta, DH held her for all weight checks and measurements - actually he caught her coming out too, so the nurses never held her.  I was still settling in when they came to bather her on the postpartum side and that was the only time anyone other than us touched her, and I sat right there with the nurse, gave her the baby wash I brought and basically said she could just do a quick rinse and not worry about any junk left behind.  She looked at me a little sideways until she smelled the burts bees baby wash and then she was all excited about the smell and forgot about my nutty request.

 

You'll have to feel them out in the hospital but honestly, don't worry too much about being labeled as nutty - they see all sorts of strange requests, blame it on hormones!

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#15 of 32 Old 04-12-2014, 07:29 AM
 
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and of.strep b status.

Yeah, that was the one they "lost" for me and it had been done in l&d like a week before! They wanted to keep us longer to observe baby but hubby sent them on a search until they found it.

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#16 of 32 Old 04-12-2014, 08:43 AM
 
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As promised:  Rota.

 

These are just avenues for exploration - please double check anything I or anyone else says.

 

Rotavirus is a gastro type disease that hits (used to hit?) almost everyone.  It is disastrous in developing nations, and not scary at all in developed nations.  Worst case scenario - you child will end up in the hospital being re-hydrated.

 

I assume my 3 children had rotavirus as everyone when they were born (18-11 years ago) had rotavirus...but it was so mild I do not even remember it.

 

Rotavirus, already a mild disease in wealthy countries, is even milder in breastfed infants. 

 

The severity of rotavirus is largely due to how early the child gets rotavirus.   Rotavirus is spread through the fecal oral/route.  Children in daycare are more likely to get rotavirus early, due to multiple children in diapers

 

Rotavirus vaccine can shed for several weeks in diapers. If you go for the vaccine, please do not let anyone who is elderly or immune-compromised change the diaper.  They have probably had rotavirus, but no need to risk things. 

 

Rotavirus vaccine can cause intuscetption  (spelling?).  That scares the bejeebers out of me, although it is not typically fatal. 

 

ETA:  this article, from the Australian government, estimates 6 extra cases of intusseption per 100 000 babies. 

http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/immunise-rotavirus

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#17 of 32 Old 04-12-2014, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Making a quick post to let you know we're still engaged. Using public wifi, don't always have time to make a in depth post.

We can't say thank you enough.
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#18 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 03:45 AM
 
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I particularly like the book, What your doctors may not tell you about children's vaccinations. It is very informative and discusses the risks, origins, frequency of disease - along with type if vaccination, etc. also discusses various plans for vaccinating if you decide to do so. I got a lot from the book.

Hep B is contracted through sharing needles or sexually... So you can see why having every baby vax for it in the hour they are born is more a public mandate that based on practicality. If mom doesn't have it, baby isn't getting it.

What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About(TM) Children's Vaccinations by Stephanie Cave et al. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0446677078/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_FAMstb14FM4NJ

My advice is refrain from telling people unless you want/like to debate, though even then it can be unavoidable. So arm yourself with a few key points (natural immunity is life long, vaxxing creates super bugs - look at the whooping cough, Etc.) and expect to be looked at like a freak sometimes - or 'that' person.
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#19 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 09:06 AM
 
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I agree, with not discussing your choices with anyone.

When I had my 1st, the plan was that we may do a few vaccines at 12 months...then 2 years old...then I just kept researching and felt confident to not do any vaccines at all. Just take your time and you'll make the right decision.They don't do the Hep B shot at birth here in Canada. I can't begin to tell you how ridiculous it seems to me that they give that shot at birth. Just keep an eye on them!

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#20 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 12:25 PM
 
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So...the ob/gyn is a bully. Something to consider before you sign anything:
Consent forms are often covertly designed to convince you to allow things that you normally wouldn't. If it says, "I agree to adhere to hospital policies," and the policies state that you'll allow vaccination, you just agreed. Make sure you read those policies and expressly decline them.

If you're on the fence about hep B, you may also want to research vitamin K and prophylactic eye drops which are also routinely given at birth. You can decline them both, but be ready for a fight. Be ready to stand your ground, no matter what anyone tells you, and remember to use the phrase "I do not consent," because it's legal speak for "I will sue you if you do it against my will." Any unwanted touching is battery.

Don't let the baby out of your site if you don't want these things done, because some practitioners will do whatever they want.

A good source for info is the CDC numbers directly. You'll end up seeing that the diseases that are touted as enormously dangerous are far more rare than most medical professionals say. Like this one: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/g/cases&deaths.PDF

Eventually, you may have trouble finding a pediatrician who will agree not to vaccinate. Make sure to never sign anything that states that you are putting your child's life in danger by refusing to vaccinate. A Family Practitioner may be a better option for you because their specialty wasn't founded on the need to vaccinate.

Best wishes. Please let me know if you need more sources. I dug deeply into this info about a year ago and it's become my soapbox.
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#21 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 03:47 PM
 
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Another couple of blurbs for you. Again, please double-check - this is not medical advice. :)

 

- In addition to the ways already mentioned, Hep B can be spread through saliva/pre-chewing food to give to a baby. A dear friend of mine (married to a doctor) spent a considerable amount of time in Asia. Apparently, pre-chewing food to give to baby is a common practice in Asian families, and tends to increase Hep B transmission in practicing communities. I'm not aware if it occurs elsewhere, but that is definitely something else to consider. While you and your wife may not be carriers, that would likely be a practice to discourage if it should happen to occur in your families/communities.

 

- Vitamin K. Another friend of mine is homebirthing any day now in a country with an extremely high C-section rate. She asked me to look into Vitamin K for her. One thing that definitely "popped up" in my research is the possibility/probability that Vitamin K is a prophylactic to aid in clotting - which would "benefit" babies who were born in hospitals and circumcised quite soon after birth, and who may "need" the additional aid to clot post-circumcision. I actually hadn't known or realized this prior to researching, so a brief bit of research as a previous poster mentioned may do you a bit of good in an informational sense, especially as you are having a girl and won't be circumcising (obviously).

 

The most moderate of my personal beliefs is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach to vaccination isn't necessarily the way to go. Actions are often suggested to the "lowest common denominator" when it comes to people, because relying on individuals to utilize common sense can be... less than ideal. We were very, very young when our first child was born, and fought quite a bit of pressure from others. Our vaccine decision/s were made taking the various risks and benefits of the vaccines and illnesses, as well as our own personal lifestyle/s, into account. (Good parent/child health, exclusively breastfeeding, not working in a profession frequented by children, the ill, or individuals of questionable health status, as well as no daycare - these worked in our favor, and we were low-risk.) Your lifestyle - for example, risky personal behavior, or just an occupation that would give you greater exposure to possible illness/disease - may alter your risk level.

 

Finding a supportive health care provider is SO important (compared to just finding any health care provider). I might suggest finding one who practices family medicine, so that your wife and daughter (and you as well, if you wish) could all be treated at once? That was very helpful for us when dealing with things like thrush or other breastfeeding issues (ability to treat both mom and baby at once or with cooperative medicine rather than two different treatments) or a family illness.

 

I would definitely encourage you to research vaccination waivers and legal exemptions, should you go that route - whether you delay, selectively vaccinate, or choose to not vaccinate at all. They can differ from state to state - I believe all states have medical and religious exemptions, and some have philosophical exemptions. Many, many, many people can give you a difficult time or treat you poorly if you do not vaccinate according to the AAP (I'm assuming that you're in the US) schedule. While waivers/exemptions are mostly used in school situations or other situations where vaccines are generally mandated/for participation, I have found it helpful to have a legal exemption, signed and notarized, and keep it at hand and accompanied by a note from your/child's physician on physician letterhead, stating that the physician has reviewed the exemption and discussed it with you. It is one thing to say, "My child is not vaccinated/according to the American Academy of Pediatrics schedule," and another thing to say, "My child is not vaccinated/according to the AAP schedule, and here is my notarized legal exemption, and here is an accompanying note from our physician on physician letterhead." The latter says, "Yes, this is the way things are. I am aware of my legal rights and my physician is aware/supportive." Especially as young parents, we've found that having this paperwork gives a "legitimacy" to what is often viewed as a negligent or ignorant choice. It can nip the nasty looks and pestering in the bud, so to speak. (Actually, we have several copies - all notarized originals - and one original physician note, which we've photocopied and attached to each notarized exemption copy.)

 

Of course, all of this is my opinion - but I do hope that this helps, as I had many of the same questions and concerns when expecting my first. Congratulations and best of luck!

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#22 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 04:46 PM
 
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IMO, vitamin K is not comparable to a vaccine. Just because it is a shot it tends to get lumped in with them but it's really totally different when you look at why it's given and how the body processes it.
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#23 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 04:54 PM
 
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A past poster had mentioned both Vitamin K and the eye ointment, which is why I mentioned it. :)

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#24 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Having all you jump in our forum so quickly and with so much information is great.

We're better prepared to handle everything with the hospital staff. Better prepared to NOT speak with f&f anymore about it. And better prepared to make future decisions.

We feel a bit more empowered to do what we feel is best.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of majority, it's time to pause and reflect." -Mark Twain
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#25 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 08:49 PM
 
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I mention them more because they're given at the same time. Although Vitamin K is not a vaccine, many who refuse it do so for the same reasons that they refuse vaccines: ingredients that they disagree with, too high a dose, adverse effects.
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#26 of 32 Old 04-13-2014, 08:58 PM
 
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Two states (West Virginia and Mississippi) don't offer religious exemptions, but WV will pay to have someone homeschool your child if you refuse to vaccinate on religious grounds. All other states offer with religious, philosophical, or medical exemptions. Bear in mind that exemptions only matter in terms of attending school and daycare; you don't Have to vaccinate at all before they attend those.

In terms of a religious exemption, you should actually Not get a letter from your doctor if you opt out due to your religious beliefs. Combining religious and medical exemptions is one of the primary reasons that people have their exemption denied in court. With a religious exemption, you simply state that vaccines conflict with your religious beliefs (language differs state to state). Some states use a form, some require a letter from the parents, some have other requirements.

"Religion," as defined by the US Supreme Court, does not necessarily require a person to believe in a higher power. They borrowed a quote from Tillich's "The Shaking of the Foundations" in US vs Seeger to state that religion is defined as a matter of "ultimate concern." The only state that (ahem...unconstitutionally) requires scriptural evidence of beliefs is NY. You are not required to declare which beliefs prohibit vaccination in the event that someone asks.
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#27 of 32 Old 04-16-2014, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, we're in the hospital having the baby. All your tips have made things run smoothly.

smile.gif

-Jared
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#28 of 32 Old 04-16-2014, 12:33 PM
 
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Woohoo!

Good luck and keep us informed as you can.
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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#29 of 32 Old 04-17-2014, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Healthy baby girl, Quinnlyn. Born 7lbs 8oz.

Katelyn is doing great. Tired as expected.

Quinnlyn has latched. Very excited things are going well.

Hospital has been great, not pushy at all and the doc has been very respectful of our decisions.

smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

Thank you all once again!

-Jared
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#30 of 32 Old 04-17-2014, 02:07 PM
 
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Congratulations to you both and welcome Quinnlyn!  partytime.gif champagne.gif 

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Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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