In Ohio and nearly ready to line my unvaxxed kids up for MMR - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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First there is the HUGE mumps outbreak.  And now today there are at least a dozen cases of measles reported up in Knox Co, but the Amish are always down here at our zoo and whole foods.  My kids are 9 and 3 and are both unvaxxed due to large amounts of autism in my husband's side of the family and autoimmune issues for me.  Also, my brother was paralyzed from the waist down for 2 weeks after the MMR as a baby.  So I was sort of okay with the thought of mumps, but I am definitely not okay with the thought of measles!  I am just not okay with it.  We HAVE had pertussis, but the thought of such a high fever with measles and encephalitis undoes me.  

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#2 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 02:18 PM
 
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Hi,

 

I am sorry you are so worried.

 

What do you want from us?  I am hesitant to start talking about what I would do or what I think I would do unless that is what you want.

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#3 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 03:56 PM
 
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Encephalitis is a real possibility with vaccines too..my DD did the screams at 2 and 5mos from DTaP.

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#4 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not sure what I want?  Everything to go away?  Do outbreaks in Amish communities stay contained?  It seems they are all over our town (in Columbus), so it seems they travel quite a bit.  Not sure what other mamas would do?

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#5 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Also, would a 3 yr old and 9 yr old be as much at risk for encephalitis from vaccines the way a baby under age 1 would?  We thought about vaccinating our older child at age 7 when I was pregnant with child #2 bc of the very high levels of pertussis in our community but decided not to bc there were reports of late autism at that age after some shots (reports from Autism Research Institute).  We decided we didn't want him 'taking one for the team'.  About 1 1/2 years later, our whole family got whooping cough.  Measles is just undoing me.  The 270 cases of mumps aren't making me real at ease but measles takes the cake.  We have two integrative doctors. One is recommending the MMR and the other is not.  The one that is not doesn't want us to get it bc she said a lot of people still have a lot of issues with the MMR being live, and her point is that there are SO many people getting the mumps here that have had the TWO shots for it.  I do believe the measles out break has been in unvaxxed individuals though.

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#6 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 04:57 PM
 
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I don't know what to tell you either. Personally, having lived through measles and mumps, I wouldn't be concerned about my children getting it. I am going to post a presentation from Tetyana Obukhanychy who talks at length about measles vaccination and immunity, I hope it is of help to you. Education is everything!

 

I should add Tetyana has a PhD in immunology and is a working scientist and mom, who decided not to vaccinate her child.

 


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#7 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 05:11 PM
 
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I'm not worried about measles at all. I have vitamin A at home, which I give my kids occasionally. If they got measles, I would give them a few big doses of vitamin A. We use Klaire Labs micellized vitamin A.

 

How would you feel if your kids had bad reactions to the MMR vaccine, and then got measles anyway? It happens.

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#8 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 05:12 PM
 
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My kids had measles.  No issues.

 

But you may want to consider that it takes 5-10 days for Measles & Rubella components to "take" and 3 weeks for mumps.  Also, do consider that it's a live vaccine, so if everyone's lining up to get it, it's a very real possibility it's actually being spread by the shed virus from the recently vaccinated.

 

With a family history like yours, I wouldn't risk it.  However, that is my opinion- that's all.

 

Are the Amish specifically being blamed for this?  Sorry I know nothing about it.

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#9 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 06:13 PM
 
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If it were me, I would not.

 

you have risks all away around IMO, reactions, re-bolstering throughout life and or tittering due to effeteness of the vaccine, still contracting even if vaccinated, not getting X disease even if exposed --exposure does not mean guarantee of getting a disease, getting X disease and not bad enough for full immunity or getting bad with complications

 

I don't personally see one weighing out over another. 

 

 

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Are the Amish specifically being blamed for this?  Sorry I know nothing about it.

I hope they are not or any group being blamed. I had not heard that either.

 

aggie pop make a very good point about the time frame for immunity if you do vaccinate - that too should be considered IMO

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#10 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 06:44 PM
 
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There was a thread here a month or so ago about treating different childhood illnesses - I can't find it now, but maybe someone else can link to it??? Not sure if there was measles info but you might find it helpful.

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#11 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 08:17 PM
 
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The biggest risk factor for complications of measles appears to be vitamin A deficiency. Measles encephalitis is NOT common in the US, and was not a common side effect before the vaccine was introduced.

Whether or not you get the MMR, you need to make sure your kids are getting plenty of rest and exercise, and that they're eating healthy--very little sugar, plenty of fruits and vegetables, as much organic as possible, etc.
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#12 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 08:34 PM
 
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#13 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 08:44 PM
 
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Perhaps consider staying home and keeping your children home instead of shopping during the outbreak?  It really is the best way to prevent disease transmission.

 

I am trying to help, not being snarky.

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#14 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 08:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

Mortality rate in the US in the 20th century - 
http://business.financialpost.com/2014/04/16/lawrence-solomon-the-untold-story-of-measles/

Fascinating article Applejuice. Thank you so much for posting.
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#15 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 09:11 PM
 
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From # 7 http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1399808/curious-about-treatments/0_100
 

"Measles/English Measles/Rubeola/morbilli - is a very contagious disease. It can be contracted by touching an object that an infected person has touched. The disease is contagious for 7-8 days, 4 days before the rash appears.

 

Symptoms - tiredness, runny nose, slight fever, head, neck, and back pains, photophobia or sensitivity to light, the eyes turn red, white spots can be seen inside the mouth - Koplik's Spots - and a rash begins at the hairline, behind the ears, and then moves down covering the body within a day and a half. The rash will clear in 3-4 days.  The fever will continue to rise to about 103 F until for 3-4 days.

 

Treatment - Give the child plenty of fluids, plenty of vitamin A,  and keep them in a dark quiet room. If the rash is uncomfortable, give the child an oatmeal bath, calamine lotion or corn starch. Measles eats up the vitamin A in the system, so make sure the child gets plenty of vitamin A.  Klaire Labs has an excellent vitamin A supplement muscillized, and it was recommended to me.  I would not give aspirin to a child with a viral infection nor would I give a child tylenol. The fever serves a purpose; just watch your child, give plenty of fluids, and keep the child comfortable.

 

Dr Robert S Mendelsohn's book, How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor has an entire chapter devoted to the harmless  diseases that children used to get routinely and recovered from with lifetime immunity.  He questioned the 1/1000 measles encephalitis and stated that this was more like 1/10000 or 1/100000, although I would not want to be one of those or be the mom of one of them, but he stated that in otherwise healthy children, as I stated in other posts, measles is NOT a dangerous disease in otherwise healthy children.

IF you are at all concerned about your child, go to the doctor, urgent care, or ER and ask to use the back door so you do not infect anyone in the waiting room."

All information from CDC, Dr. Mendelsohn
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthreporig00027-0069.pdfQuote:

For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare.

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#16 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 09:14 PM
 
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From - #8 http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1399808/curious-about-treatments/0_100

"Mumps - a viral disease spread by coughing, sneezing, sharing drinks, or other spreading of the salivary droplets or wherever the mumps virus may be. The incubation period can be anywhere from 14-26 days.  a person is contagious for 6 days before the symptoms begin and then for 9 days after.  There is evidence that having the mumps as a young girl can prevent ovarian cancer later in life.

 

Symptoms - Fever and headache are the first symptoms. Pain and swelling of the salivary glands, the parotid gland, and maybe a rash. Malaise, lack of appetite, dry mouth, sore neck, face, ears, more rarely in serious cases,  loss of voice can occur. Apparently 20% of all persons infected with the mumps virus never get symptoms, so it is possible to have mumps, and spread the virus w/o knowing it. 

Complications: As for mumps causing sterility in men, that is why it is a good idea for children to have this disease when they are young and not get it when the vaccine wears off. If a man does get the mumps and is unfortunate enough to get the rare complication of orchitis, it involves one testicle, and does not always cause sterility; if it does, the other testicle can take over the job.  Women can get oophritis, another rare complication of adult mumps which is a inflammation of one ovary.
More complications:  Pancreatitis in about 4% of cases, manifesting as abdominal pain and vomiting; encephalitis (very rare, and fatal in about 1% of the cases when it occurs) Profound but rare senorineural hearing loss, uni- or bilateral. Acute bilateral illness occurs in 0.005% of cases. 

 

Treatment - Mumps is self-limiting, with no special treatment other than to keep the child quiet, comfortable, and hydrated. Never give a child with a viral infection aspirin as it will lead to Reyes Syndrome.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reye%27s_syndrome  Dr. Mendelsohn in his book recommends a few drops of whiskey to kill the pain. This recommendation scares some people.  Use your judgement.


I had mumps, measles, etc. I never took aspirin as a child. 

If you are at all concerned about your child, go to the doctor, urgent care, ER and ask to use the back door.

All information is gleaned from Dr. Mendelsohn and the CDC."

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#17 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 04:19 AM
 
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Measles Outbreak Traced To Fully Vaccinated Patient For First Time

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/04/23/measles-outbreak-traced-to-fully-vaccinated-patient-for-first-time/

 

And this was three years ago...I would imagine the number of vaccinated who still got the disease is still circulating to this day, even in the current outbreaks going on.

Quote:
For the first time, a person fully vaccinated (twice vaccinated individual) against measles has contracted the disease and passed it on to others. According to a study recently published in Clinical Infectious Diseases, the 2011 New York measles outbreak affected individuals with prior evidence of measles vaccination and vaccine immunity. The study noted that measles may occur in vaccinated individuals, but secondary transmission (prior to this study) has never been documented.(1)
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#18 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 04:48 AM
 
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Perhaps consider staying home and keeping your children home instead of shopping during the outbreak?  It really is the best way to prevent disease transmission.

 

I am trying to help, not being snarky.

I had a similar thought.  Most of these outbreaks come and go - you may be able to slightly isolate to avoid.

 

I remember reading that droplets could spread about 6 feet once - I have found it a useful guideline for when there are ill people in the area.

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#19 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 08:57 AM
 
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Also, would a 3 yr old and 9 yr old be as much at risk for encephalitis from vaccines the way a baby under age 1 would?  We thought about vaccinating our older child at age 7 when I was pregnant with child #2 bc of the very high levels of pertussis in our community but decided not to bc there were reports of late autism at that age after some shots (reports from Autism Research Institute).  We decided we didn't want him 'taking one for the team'.  About 1 1/2 years later, our whole family got whooping cough.  Measles is just undoing me.  The 270 cases of mumps aren't making me real at ease but measles takes the cake.  We have two integrative doctors. One is recommending the MMR and the other is not.  The one that is not doesn't want us to get it bc she said a lot of people still have a lot of issues with the MMR being live, and her point is that there are SO many people getting the mumps here that have had the TWO shots for it.  I do believe the measles out break has been in unvaxxed individuals though.


It sucks that you had to go through pertussis, but there's no guarantee that the vax would have protected the family either.  Also it doesn't prevent transmission so even if the whole family was up to date, the little one would not have been fully covered.  My 2.5 yo is not fully vaxxed as we stopped at 5mos due to severe reactions.  I don't worry at all about her contracting measles if it makes it's way to my area as I feel her ability to handle disease is far greater than her ability to handle vaccines.  If it moves closer I might pick up some Vit A to have on hand and we also use a lot of essential oils and I'm pretty confident that we could handle it at home.  So maybe you're questioning more your confidence on dealing with a vaccine reaction vs a disease?  It's a tough choice to weigh out, I've been on the one side and it's no fun, and I don't imagine disease complications to be any better, but, for us the risks fall in favor of disease.  Hopefully you can come to terms with whatever will make you most comfortable.

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http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6316a6.htm?s_cid=mm6316a6_w

 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/24/health/measles-record-number/index.html?hpt=us_c2

 

On recent events about measles outbreak esp. in CA. Some of them were vaccinated too.

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#21 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It sucks that you had to go through pertussis, but there's no guarantee that the vax would have protected the family either.  Also it doesn't prevent transmission so even if the whole family was up to date, the little one would not have been fully covered.  My 2.5 yo is not fully vaxxed as we stopped at 5mos due to severe reactions.  I don't worry at all about her contracting measles if it makes it's way to my area as I feel her ability to handle disease is far greater than her ability to handle vaccines.  If it moves closer I might pick up some Vit A to have on hand and we also use a lot of essential oils and I'm pretty confident that we could handle it at home.  So maybe you're questioning more your confidence on dealing with a vaccine reaction vs a disease?  It's a tough choice to weigh out, I've been on the one side and it's no fun, and I don't imagine disease complications to be any better, but, for us the risks fall in favor of disease.  Hopefully you can come to terms with whatever will make you most comfortable.

Yes, my son caught pertussis from fully vaccinated children at his school.  Sixteen vaccinated children at his school had pertussis before he caught it.  My husband had also had the Tdap within a year of us getting it (bc he works in a hospital).  But I thought the MMR was more effective than the Dtap/Tdap.  

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#22 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 01:03 PM
 
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Yes, my son caught pertussis from fully vaccinated children at his school.  Sixteen vaccinated children at his school had pertussis before he caught it.  My husband had also had the Tdap within a year of us getting it (bc he works in a hospital).  But I thought the MMR was more effective than the Dtap/Tdap.  

If you have the time to watch the video I posted above, Dr Obukhanych goes into some detail on the efficacy of the measles portion of the MMR. Basically around 25% of the population are good responder the rest are medium to poor. The poor responders show insufficient immunity to prevent getting a full-blown case of measles, those in the middle, around 70% do have enough antibodies to not get symptoms, but they still might be carriers if exposed to measles.

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#23 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I had a similar thought.  Most of these outbreaks come and go - you may be able to slightly isolate to avoid.

 

I remember reading that droplets could spread about 6 feet once - I have found it a useful guideline for when there are ill people in the area.

I have been trying to avoid taking the kids out, but my son has to go to school unless there is a case or a cluster there (then they might tell me I have to take him out).  We are avoiding our church right now bc there are a lot of OSU people there.  I won't take them to the zoo either.  My son has ADD though so he doesn't sit still in the house well when the weather is nice, and he has been playing with the neighborhood kids outside and going to the indoor pool.  I mean, this outbreak has been going on since February, so I feel at some point we are going to have to buck it up and give the MMR or stop isolating and throw our hands up that he could get it.  

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#24 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 04:47 PM
 
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http://www.timesargus.com/article/20140425/OPINION04/704259908

Another interesting opinion piece about measles 

Quote:
Contrary to the stated goals of official health organizations such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization, measles could not be eliminated even if everyone on the planet were to be vaccinated. On the contrary, mass vaccination seems to be exacerbating measles’ spread.
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#25 of 28 Old 04-26-2014, 06:38 AM
 
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I have been trying to avoid taking the kids out, but my son has to go to school unless there is a case or a cluster there (then they might tell me I have to take him out).  We are avoiding our church right now bc there are a lot of OSU people there.  I won't take them to the zoo either.  My son has ADD though so he doesn't sit still in the house well when the weather is nice, and he has been playing with the neighborhood kids outside and going to the indoor pool.  I mean, this outbreak has been going on since February, so I feel at some point we are going to have to buck it up and give the MMR or stop isolating and throw our hands up that he could get it.  

Has the mumps been around since February or the measles?

 

All measles outbreaks thus far has had a shelf life - you can probably look up the ones in Wales,Texas, Quebec to see how long they lasted.  

 

Mumps seems closer to endemic, looking at stats.  Given the vaccine failure we seem to be experiencing with mumps, it might not be a bad idea for them to get mumps now anyways, when it is safer.  

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#26 of 28 Old 04-26-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Has the mumps been around since February or the measles?

 

All measles outbreaks thus far has had a shelf life - you can probably look up the ones in wales, texas, qubec to see how long they lasted.  

 

Mumps seems closer to endemic, looking at stats.  Given the vaccine failure we seem to be experiencing with mumps, it might not be a bad idea for them to get mumps now anyways, when it is safer

Mumps has been going on since February (270+ cases).  The measles (2 counties away from us) just started this week with 16 cases in an Amish community - so far.  Do measles outbreaks tend to be more short lived?  The Columbus Dispatch did run an article when the mumps cases were around 130, saying that 69 cases were in completely vaccinated (two doses of MMR), 30 cases were in people partially vaxxed with 1 MMR, 4 were in unvaccinated, and 30 were still under investigation at that time.  

 

ETA: At this point, I am more freaked out my the measles cases due to a high amount of travel from the Amish community down to our town (Whole Foods and zoo mainly) than all the mumps cases in our town.  There were two cases of deafness with the mumps but I understand that to be very rare.  

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#27 of 28 Old 04-26-2014, 09:36 AM
 
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My siblings and I had mumps and measles (as well as chickenpox and rubella) as kids, as did everyone around us. Back then, they were just normal childhood illnesses.

I'm not going to say that I want my kids to get them, but let's just say if they did, I have faith in their immune systems.

If you feel like lining them up for the shot, that's your decision.

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#28 of 28 Old 04-26-2014, 11:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JBird View Post
 

Mumps has been going on since February (270+ cases).  The measles (2 counties away from us) just started this week with 16 cases in an Amish community - so far.  Do measles outbreaks tend to be more short lived?  The Columbus Dispatch did run an article when the mumps cases were around 130, saying that 69 cases were in completely vaccinated (two doses of MMR), 30 cases were in people partially vaxxed with 1 MMR, 4 were in unvaccinated, and 30 were still under investigation at that time.  

 

 

This is a good question.

 

I am going to look up the duration for the 3 outbreaks I mentionned above just to see how long they have been.  of course, ti will take more that n=3 t prove any point, but I am curious :)

 

Quebec:  88% of cases happened in May, June and July

http://www.msss.gouv.qc.ca/en/sujets/prob_sante/measles/portrait2011.php

 

 

Texas:

 Failing to find a link, but if I recollect properly it was overly failrly quickly.

 

Wales:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Swansea_measles_epidemic

 

"The duration looked to be about 7 months, but most cases were in a 2-3 month period. 

 

The following table shows measles notifications by the NHS Health Board.

Health Board Nov 2012 Dec Jan 2013 Feb Mar Apr May June July Total
Abertawe Bro Morgannwg 15 37 39 66 239 440 98 26 0 960
Hwyel Dda 17 24 8 9 14 43 28 13 2 158
Powys 2 0 3 0 36 46 12 2 0 101
Total 34 61 50 75 289 529 138 41 2 1219[1]
 

 

 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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