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#1 of 39 Old 06-06-2008, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How to argue with that? I realize that I shouldn't have said I wasn't vax'ing, I have a problem with lieing though...so when they ask I tell the truth. This is the respnse I got "well, your counting on me and the other vaxers to save your child from deadly diseases" I argue that vaccines aren't even effective...they argue that if you take them away there is a giant increase in the diseases. what to say? what is the truth? is that true? would the diseases increase? probubly, but then wouldn't autoimmune diseases decrease? any info on the effectiveness (or lack there of) of vaccines would be appreciated

Danielle*
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#2 of 39 Old 06-06-2008, 09:49 PM
 
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I'd probably say something like "We've done our research and are comfortable with our decisions."

There's debate about this, because it's all theory. But really, most of the diseases we vax against were declining steadily BEFORE the vaccines were in use simply because of better health and hygiene, running water, better food supply, etc.
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#3 of 39 Old 06-06-2008, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'd probably say something like "We've done our research and are comfortable with our decisions."

There's debate about this, because it's all theory. But really, most of the diseases we vax against were declining steadily BEFORE the vaccines were in use simply because of better health and hygiene, running water, better food supply, etc.
true...but I think they're saying I'm also putting their kids at risk because I"m not vaxing...? thats not true right? if anything they're putting MY kid at risk.
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#4 of 39 Old 06-06-2008, 11:19 PM
 
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I say I'd really rather that no one vax

-Angela
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#5 of 39 Old 06-06-2008, 11:32 PM
 
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I say I'd really rather that no one vax

-Angela
this is what i say, too.
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#6 of 39 Old 06-07-2008, 12:05 AM
 
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If the vaxes work and are so great, they have nothing to fear from unvaxed people, no?
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#7 of 39 Old 06-07-2008, 12:57 AM
 
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I don’t think vaccines are at all effective, so I don't believe we're depending on anyone. Vaccination is not immunization. The natural immune system will always be superior vs. "trying" to create "artificial immunity."
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#8 of 39 Old 06-07-2008, 01:07 AM
 
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Not telling someone you aren't vaxing isn't lying. It's none of their freaking business in the first place.
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#9 of 39 Old 06-07-2008, 12:26 PM
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I say I'd really rather that no one vax

-Angela
:
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#10 of 39 Old 06-09-2008, 12:14 PM
 
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OP, you're asking about the theory on Herd Immunity, right? I'm bumping because I want to know the real response to this question too, even if I end up saying, "We've researched and this is the best answer for us."

I don't think I understand the theory on herd immunity from either side very well. I found this website: http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/

but would like additional resources to answer the same question.

We are starting our vaccine research, no vax's yet (been delaying on the excuse that my dd is tiny (4 months, 11 lbs)), and so far, I'm not liking what I'm reading. Your help is appreciated!
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#11 of 39 Old 06-09-2008, 12:28 PM
 
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Yes I am and I feel fine with that. I'll explain why. I feel vaccines are not studied and tested adequately, in proper situations or for long enough. If 100% of parents said 'I won't vax my kid until you test these vaccines better', we would have better testing, no question. As it is, these parents don't do that, they just vax without demanding better testing. I don't feel bad using their herd immunity to my advantage because I wouldn't have to choose between possibly unsafe vaccines or getting the disease if they also questioned the vaccines.

Since I can't make those choices for them, I can only make my own, my own choice IS based on the current statistics of getting these diseases (as well as their effects) and yes, if everyone stopped vaxing and the chances of getting some of the worse diseases went up, my value judgement might change for some vaccines.
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#12 of 39 Old 06-11-2008, 01:24 AM
 
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As for the info being no one's business - I'm proud that we don't vaccinate. I want to engage people in debate. Sadly, no one else wants that. They all freak out, or mumble something about how they had all their shots, blah blah blah.
If you're really looking to stop someone and make them think, I'd try this:
You're not supposed to give a baby solid foods until 6 months. At that point, you're supposed to only try one food every 5 days. But somehow, it's OK to inject 8 different disease-preservative combinations into my baby's bloodstream. How does that work?

I've found that effective, as usually people will change the subject at that point.
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#13 of 39 Old 06-11-2008, 03:55 AM
 
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Great site. I haven't come across it before, so I am so glad you posted this, PingPong'sMom.

I found the information there presented frankly in a non-hysterical fashion. The information appears sound to me. I found it interesting that some vaccines prevent the symptoms of an illness (pertussis for example) but do not prevent the vaccinated person from carrying the disease and possibly infecting others. Herd immunity can only work if the vaccine eliminates effectively the ability of a vaccinated person to carry the disease, not just eliminate the symptoms!

(Having just been with my 8 month old in the hospital with pneumonia this spring, a complication of pertussis, I now wonder if he caught pertussis, whooping cough, from a vaccinated child? Certainly went head to head with his ped. before being officially "kicked out" of his practice for not vaccinating. Illness happens, and now my son has overcome this one. Thank goodness for exclusive breastfeeding and it's effect on supporting my son's immune system's natural ability to fight off infection! Lifelong immunity happens after the second bout of pertussis, in which the symptoms are much milder than the first bout of pertussis. I'd fight for THAT kind of immunity any day.)
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#14 of 39 Old 06-12-2008, 10:15 PM
 
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I say I'd really rather that no one vax

-Angela
Yep..say "no, I'm not, I'd LOVE it if you wouldn't inject poisons into your children. "
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#15 of 39 Old 06-12-2008, 10:24 PM
 
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How to argue with that? I realize that I shouldn't have said I wasn't vax'ing, I have a problem with lieing though...so when they ask I tell the truth. This is the respnse I got "well, your counting on me and the other vaxers to save your child from deadly diseases" I argue that vaccines aren't even effective...they argue that if you take them away there is a giant increase in the diseases. what to say? what is the truth? is that true? would the diseases increase? probubly, but then wouldn't autoimmune diseases decrease? any info on the effectiveness (or lack there of) of vaccines would be appreciated

Danielle*
I would tell them that most vaccines have host protective abilities not transmission prevention abilities. So although I appreciate them feeling like a martyr there really is no need.
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#16 of 39 Old 06-12-2008, 10:39 PM
 
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The is the old tired herd theory. The problem is that we are people, not cows, so we do not live in herds.

doctors always get their species mixed up.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#17 of 39 Old 06-12-2008, 10:51 PM
 
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where do you have these conversations at? I guess people know better then to say silly things to me because.. well, I'm crazy, and I may start into a long rherotric about whatever nonsense it was they just regurgitated at me.
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#18 of 39 Old 06-13-2008, 01:11 PM
 
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Frankly, I am not relying on the vaxers, doctors, or any one else "to save my child"; I am relying on my own life experience, my research, and my knowledge to know what to do for my child. After all, I alone am responsible for my child, not any one else, including Hillary Clinton, who has been quoted as saying, "There is no such thing as other people's children".

In this life, for me, there are only my own children that I am personally responsible for.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#19 of 39 Old 06-13-2008, 02:14 PM
 
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true...but I think they're saying I'm also putting their kids at risk because I"m not vaxing...? thats not true right? if anything they're putting MY kid at risk.
I'd tell them that their statement makes absolutely no sense. If they believe vaccines work and their child is vaccinated then why would my child put them at risk? They're suppose to be immune, right?

I would tell them if they research they'll find that in almost all outbreaks of disease with available vaccines the vast majority of children were those that were vaccinated. If anything they DO put your child at risk.

Every case of polio within the U.S. since the administration of vaccines was a person who had received the vaccine.
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#20 of 39 Old 06-13-2008, 04:08 PM
 
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You're not supposed to give a baby solid foods until 6 months. At that point, you're supposed to only try one food every 5 days. But somehow, it's OK to inject 8 different disease-preservative combinations into my baby's bloodstream. How does that work?
:
Oooooo. That's good. I'll be using that one.
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#21 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 11:21 AM
 
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Just thought I would share MY personal experience as of recent. My GF and I were having a discussion about the NY bill, 10942, and she made a comment about they might be trying to protect those who DO choose to vaccinate? I was genuinely inquisitive? I asked, Protect them from what? She said, from those who dont vaccinate? Still not understanding, i said, what would they need protecting from? (Now at this point, I am still not understanding her, because i really didnt think she was THIS misinformed) So she said, we I can see (a common friend of ours with a baby the same age as mine) being leary about Charlie (my son) being in the same class as hers because hes not vaccinated. I about LOST my mind! I said, If So and So's son is completly vaccinated, what does she have to worry about from my son if vaccines are soooo effective? If anything, my son would have more to worry about from hers, since certain ones like Varicella and MMR SHED! Not that I would care if he got any of those. So she proceeded to ACTUALLY state that she thought my sons immune system would be weaker because he DIDNT get vaccineated, because vaccines make your immune system stronger. MY GOD, I was appalled. I dropped the conversation right then and there because i couldnt stand knowing anymore how uneducated she was, although she thinks I am the stupid one. I ended it with, well with the amount of research I have done, I feel comfortable with my facts.

I just cant get over how brainwashed people have become.
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#22 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 11:27 AM
 
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I'd tell them that their statement makes absolutely no sense. If they believe vaccines work and their child is vaccinated then why would my child put them at risk? They're suppose to be immune, right?
The theory is this: vaccines are supposed to eradicate childhood illnesses. Non-vax kids are instead introducing the diseases into communities. This gives the diseases a chance to mutate into *new* strains....... strains that the vaccine does not protect against.
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#23 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 11:32 AM
 
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This gives the diseases a chance to mutate into *new* strains....... strains that the vaccine does not protect against.
I have never seen any evidence of this idea.

-Angela
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#24 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 11:33 AM
 
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That is a bad theory. Actually, new strains would be introduced because of vaccination.

The vaccines that shed are given to children which makes them carriers of the disease they are vaccinated against and they carry the disease to those who are not vaccinated.

As one can see, there is a difference of opinion here.

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#25 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 11:49 AM
 
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The theory is this: vaccines are supposed to eradicate childhood illnesses. Non-vax kids are instead introducing the diseases into communities. This gives the diseases a chance to mutate into *new* strains....... strains that the vaccine does not protect against.
Because no virus and no bacteria could POSSIBLY mutate on its own. LOL I had a "friend" state this to me.

And, for the poster who had the child with pertussis...the vax does not prevent pertussis!! It's supposed to make the case more mild. So not vaxing with Pertussis means nothing. LOL Oh, geez...scare 'em so they'll vax.

I'll say one thing...if they have to use fear to get me to do anything, you can bet I'll never do it.
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#26 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 01:38 PM
 
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Most of the time it's absolutely useless to debate vaccines with
a) a doctor and
b) somebody that's given "informed consent" by reading the yellow handout at the doctor's office and maybe "what to expect".

For Doctors that debate is scary as hell, it questions everything they have learned-and who are you non-doctor to tell them they might be not up to date? I stop debating if a so called doctor refutes shedding and calls the possibility of vaxed children as carriers an "urban myth". They don't want to see any different and will not budge a millimeter on "herd immunity"- nor are even doctors aware of the ingredients of vaxes. Always blows my mind that most parents that researched the topic for years know more about the make-up of vaxes, than doctors.
They just feel threatened and a debate with them leads to nowwhere.

Debating with someone who has not read a single book on the topic, or does not even KNOWS what vaxes their child received- debate it just as fruitless. It's very rare somebody is willing to open their mind that there MIGHT be a problem- most people grow up with "if everyone is vaxed we're all safe" and anyone that does not vax is a thread for "weakening herd immunity"- and fear and fearmongering is what keeps people vaxing, not evidence or "studies".

My father only knows "vaxes are good", that's all- how are you supposed to argue with someone like that? You don't.
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#27 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 03:30 PM
 
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I'll say one thing...if they have to use fear to get me to do anything, you can bet I'll never do it.
That's what I thought when I started educating myself....if you have to use fear-mongering and bullying to to get me to do something, then I must be doing something right in refusing.

Quote:
Debating with someone who has not read a single book on the topic, or does not even KNOWS what vaxes their child received- debate it just as fruitless. It's very rare somebody is willing to open their mind that there MIGHT be a problem- most people grow up with "if everyone is vaxed we're all safe" and anyone that does not vax is a thread for "weakening herd immunity"- and fear and fearmongering is what keeps people vaxing, not evidence or "studies".
Exactly. The handout at the appt is enough, for instance. I had one friend who thought package inserts and the handout were the same thing :
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#28 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 04:30 PM
 
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Debating with someone who has not read a single book on the topic, or does not even KNOWS what vaxes their child received- debate it just as fruitless.
Yeah I remember getting into a vax conversation with a new mom at a breastfeeding class I went to and she said she just researched vaccines and I was all excited to have someone to talk to so I eagerly asked what books/studies she read. She looked at me and said “I read all the pamphlets and talked to my doctor, I am so glad I did the research and now know that all those non vaxers are just paranoid. We will be vaxing on schedule based on my research”. My heart broke and I just said “well good for you”. To continue that conversation would be pointless

To the OP – I used to be one of those people who though non vaxers were dangerous to society and I was mad that people would actually ‘withhold’ vaccines from children. I was appalled by non vaxers. Now I’m on the other side : I have had a few people use that line on me. One mom on another board actually said “it’s not fair that I have to inject my babies just so you can be protected and keep your son pure”.
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#29 of 39 Old 06-17-2008, 04:40 PM
 
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true...but I think they're saying I'm also putting their kids at risk because I"m not vaxing...? thats not true right? if anything they're putting MY kid at risk.
To that I would say that if they are so confident that vaxes are the be all that ends all with disease, then their vaxed child has nothing to worry about from my non vaxed child.


And in general my feeling is that to continue to vax everybody for everything just breeds new diseases and strong strains of the one we already have. If anything their insistence on vaxing is putting EVERYBODY at risk.

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#30 of 39 Old 06-18-2008, 10:32 AM
 
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Yeah I remember getting into a vax conversation with a new mom at a breastfeeding class I went to and she said she just researched vaccines and I was all excited to have someone to talk to so I eagerly asked what books/studies she read. She looked at me and said “I read all the pamphlets and talked to my doctor, I am so glad I did the research and now know that all those non vaxers are just paranoid. We will be vaxing on schedule based on my research”. My heart broke and I just said “well good for you”. To continue that conversation would be pointless

To the OP – I used to be one of those people who though non vaxers were dangerous to society and I was mad that people would actually ‘withhold’ vaccines from children. I was appalled by non vaxers. Now I’m on the other side : I have had a few people use that line on me. One mom on another board actually said “it’s not fair that I have to inject my babies just so you can be protected and keep your son pure”.

Gee, it really isn't fair that you are being expected to inject your child with all kinds of poison-she has a point...But, she is just as free to keep her child "pure", as we all are. Wonder who forced her??
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