supposedly, not vaxing = child neglect! - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 25 Old 09-22-2008, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Got this from dr bob's vaccination forum at thevaccinebook.com:

the second edition on page 79, you will find as one sign of child neglect:

* poor attendance for immunisations and school

The Merck Manual states:

Types

There are a number of different types of child neglect and abuse.

Physical Neglect: Not meeting a child's essential needs for food, clothing, and shelter is the most basic form of neglect. But there are many other forms. Parents may not obtain preventive dental or medical care for the child, such as vaccinations and routine physical examinations. Parents may delay obtaining medical care when the child is ill, putting the child at risk of more severe illness and even death.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/signs.cfm

Signs of Neglect

Consider the possibility of neglect when the child:

.../...
* Lacks needed medical or dental care, immunizations, or glasses

Now the above page also states:

The presence of a single sign does not prove child abuse is occurring in a family, but a closer look at the situation may be warranted when these signs appear repeatedly or in combination.

But nevertheless, if a pediatrician is actively concerned when parents do not vaccinate their children, s/he is just doing their job right

__

I was enraged when i saw this

what do you think?
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#2 of 25 Old 09-22-2008, 08:43 PM
 
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UGH. :
Thank goodness more people are paying attention to this issue I know it wont be soon but eventually people will wake up.

Its sad that I could hit my daughter and it wouldn't be as big a deal as not vaccinating her.

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#3 of 25 Old 09-22-2008, 10:02 PM
 
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That's one reason we did the WBV and will continue to see the doctor once a year for routine. Just in case someone claimed neglect, they have proof that I did take them to the doctor and they have proof of no neglect.

None the less, I believe that they probably put that in there for the simple fact that if you are beating, starving, etc. your child. You are not going to take them to the doctor b/c of physical signs and that means, no vaxs either.

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#4 of 25 Old 09-22-2008, 10:31 PM
 
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"(mediocrity) cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit t hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence"
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#5 of 25 Old 09-22-2008, 10:35 PM
 
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Tell me you are not surprised.

This has been the attitude of the medical profession for decades. This is why I have advised mothers on MDC to lie about vax status in the ER with an injured child because the staff is on a fishing exhibition for abuse and neglect with a call to CPS just a phone call away. Remember that my children are aged 28-16, so I have been involved in this issue and others since 1980.

And yes, I did maintain a relationship with my pediatrician for years just in case.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#6 of 25 Old 09-22-2008, 10:47 PM
 
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applejuice, in your opinion is it necessary to develop a relationship with a pediatrician or would an allopathic GP/FP suffice?

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#7 of 25 Old 09-22-2008, 11:01 PM
 
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In my humble opinion and from my experience, any medical doctor should do.

I grew up without going to any doctors. My Father was a DC. In the late 1940s and 1950s many of his colleagues were able to become DOs and then became MDs by exam which was possible then in CA. If anyone in my family needed something only a doctor would provide, we would go to see them.

I went to Dr. Fleiss, a pediatrician, because for my generation of mothers, he was the most amiable. Through him, I could also get eye doctors, dentists, dermatologists and other doctors of the same mindset.

Most people can replicate this by going to LLLI or their midwife and getting referrals for their own town.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#8 of 25 Old 09-23-2008, 10:26 AM
 
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We try and keep a relationship with my daughters ped for this reason. A visit at birth and we're going to do another in the next week or so now that she just turned 6 months.

Good thing our Ped just says 'well you know I think some of the vaccines are good, but its up to you as the parent. I know you[as in AP mama's, he has a lot in his practice] do your research and are well educated.'

I was shocked at her first visit after reading all the horror stories on MDC.

haha, I love him! We'd proaly go more if our insurance actually covered him.

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#9 of 25 Old 09-23-2008, 11:14 AM
 
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Hmmm...So in countries where there aren't WBV there must be a lot of neglectful parents according to their logic. :
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#10 of 25 Old 09-23-2008, 11:17 AM
 
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We also do all of the scheduled well baby visits, solely to maintain a positive relationship. We are very fortunate that the physicians assistant attends church with us and also unschools her daughter, so she knows us as people and sees us as parents rather than just a file in the office.

We purposefully sought a ped who is against antibiotics (altho he does endorse vax he does't pressure) and is fairly homeopathic.

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#11 of 25 Old 09-25-2008, 12:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadameXCupcake View Post
We try and keep a relationship with my daughters ped for this reason. A visit at birth and we're going to do another in the next week or so now that she just turned 6 months.

Good thing our Ped just says 'well you know I think some of the vaccines are good, but its up to you as the parent. I know you[as in AP mama's, he has a lot in his practice] do your research and are well educated.'

I was shocked at her first visit after reading all the horror stories on MDC.

haha, I love him! We'd proaly go more if our insurance actually covered him.
I have a similiar Pediatrician, although he says even LESS than that. At the 2 week appointment he said to me "Okay, I gotta mention Vaccines." I told him I am still researching that- which is true. I have been doing that since being pregnant. He said "yes, do your homework".

At the 2 months appointment I simply said (before he even asked me about it, he never really asked), "I think we will hold off on those". He was not phased, I think he expected that somehow.
And went on to recommend a ring sling to me...he grinned when I said my little guy didn't like the slings to much back.

Now he is 19 months and he has never even brought it up again.

In 19 months this was the first time that my little guy actually was sick once- the Pediatrician was amazed at how rarely he sees him, no ear infections, no strange coughs, even this time being sick was pretty damn mild- for which I am pretty grateful.

I knew my Ped doesn't know what to think- his grandchildren are not vaxed, so his own daughter is not vaxing. Maybe that did it for him, I don't know. I just know I will be pretty upset when we have to move- because that Doc and his wife (the RN) are just wonderful. Who let's you come in for an unscheduled sick visit on a Friday at 4:30??
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#12 of 25 Old 09-25-2008, 01:42 PM
 
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Wow this pisses me off to no end ...
I've brought DD to a GP from the start to avoid the vax issue with pedi's. The GP did recommend we vax but we told him no at the first visit and he doesn't bring it up now. I never go to WBV though. It never even occured to me that people would think that's neglectful. Why would I want to bring my healthy child to a place where everyone is sick if I don't have to? We've only been to see him maybe three or four times when DD was sick or needed something and she's 16 months now.

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#13 of 25 Old 09-26-2008, 02:44 PM
 
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Dr Sears defends against using this as a criteria for neglect and states that they are not taught this in ped school nor does it say so in the pediatric medical "bible". Not to say that OTHER peds don't do this or CPS might not have been called in the past. Just that there was more posted where you got that from.

I realize this is treading onto a UA, but for informational purposes, I am trying to provide an alternate piece of information or perspective.
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#14 of 25 Old 09-29-2008, 01:36 PM
 
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I find it so strange that those of us who obsessively research vaccines and health in general for years and choose not to vaccinate and use natural/alternative medicine are neglectful...while people who blindly do and take whatever a doctor tells them to, feed their kids whatever with no regard to nutrition, etc. are considered good, responsible parents.

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#15 of 25 Old 09-29-2008, 04:31 PM
 
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that's "civilized" world for you

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#16 of 25 Old 10-01-2008, 04:48 PM
 
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Fortunately, Texas law specifically states that not vaccinating is not cause for action by state agencies. This is how we got that protection: The Erosion of Public Trust & Informed Consent through Immunization Harassment, Discrimination and Coercion Result of the "Erosion" document in Texas (there is a link with that title in the first link of my siggy. I'm having computer issues).

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#17 of 25 Old 10-03-2008, 12:05 AM
 
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We are foster parents and I specifically asked this question in our PRIDE training. They approached the subject of "medical neglect," and I raised my hand. I made it clear that we have done our research and made informed decisions and that we've chosen not to vax. I point-blank asked the CPS workers if we could be brought up on charges based on "medical neglect." Their answer was, no, that it is a whole story evaluation that would lead to charges. If your kids are safe, healthy, happy, and doing well, then it's obvious to them that your kids are fine. Of course, stupid and crazy things do happen...there are states and workers where it appears they're out to wreck your family.

Being a part of the system, I take solace in the fact that many people cross the case while it's "going down" through CPS. So they make a call? Doesn't mean your kids are immediately removed. If all h*ll breaks loose and your kids are stupidly removed, doesn't mean a judge will support it. The bottom line is: play it safe and smart; like my midwife informed us, document, document, document. Keep copies of studies or whatever you use to prove why you're not vaxing.

And of course, like applejuice said, be cautious about who you tell.

 

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#18 of 25 Old 10-03-2008, 12:36 AM
 
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Don't worry!

I went through the same panic when I decided not to vaccinate and started learning about the "push back."

Medical neglect does include failure to vaccinate, and that fact is anxiety-provoking. But, religious objections to vaccination is your saving grace. (pun intended). Federal constitutional rights protect religious freedom, and that religious freedom includes refusal to vaccinate for religious beliefs, even those privately held. (For instance, you dont' have to belong to a church that doesn't believe in vaccination, and the fact you attend a church without a stance against vaccination doesn't hurt you, as long as, YOU personally believe that vaccinating violates your personal religious beliefs.

I've discovered, and I'm a big proponent, of simply stating, "we don't vaccinate for religious reasons." No further explanation. No discussion. No added information about autism, etc.

Can you imagine the legal and ethical quandry your physician or anyone would put themselves in if you said, "I don't violate for religious reasons" and they then vaccinated your child secretively or reported that as child abuse? They would risk a civil rights violation, ethical violations that would get them before the medical disciplinary board. If CPS was called for that, the case would be closed before it was opened.
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#19 of 25 Old 10-03-2008, 01:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Purple Cat View Post
Medical neglect does include failure to vaccinate, and that fact is anxiety-provoking. But, religious objections to vaccination is your saving grace. (pun intended). I've discovered, and I'm a big proponent, of simply stating, "we don't vaccinate for religious reasons." No further explanation. No discussion. No added information about autism, etc.
See, and this is where it gets hazy. I've come across legal waiver forms and posts where people have had to explain specifically their "religious objections" and not doing so can create a "rejection" of the waivers/waiver forms. I'm kind of out on a limb here...most of those items I'm referring to I only read in passing. But I do remember coming across them and even reading posts about it here.

 

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#20 of 25 Old 10-03-2008, 02:27 AM
 
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I think there is a big difference between ignoring vaccines, being to lazy to do them and making an informed decision, researching your legal rights, and writing a letter/filling out the form that indicates you have a religious exemption.
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#21 of 25 Old 10-03-2008, 10:09 PM
 
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Isn't it amazing what some people will say? I would think that those who DON'T do research prior to vaccinating are the ones being "neglectful"! We have had a similar incidence with our (now former!) ped. We needed a physical waiver signed to become foster parents, and she actually put that we would be unfit foster parents because our ds is not vaccinated, and HE poses an increased risk to other children! She also put we "refused" vaccinations, not that we are "exempt" which in my eyes are two completely different things!! Arrrgghh!! I can't even begin to tell you how many hours upon hours I have spent researching vaccinations to make sure I am doing the very best possible for my son!

Like other people stated, we do WBV just so people can't throw that "neglect" card on us also. Pretty pathetic excuse, if you ask me, but we cover our bases : )
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#22 of 25 Old 10-04-2008, 12:24 AM
 
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Oh, I second that. Neglect is blindly undertaking vaccinations without educating yourself. My daughter has anaphylacic egg allergies. The recommendation is that such children ALWAYS be vaccinated with the MMR, which contains eggs, because the "benefit outweighs the risk." Pediatricians are advised to have the children wait in their office to see if they start to die. Ask me if I am frosted . . .Yep. We'll just park the crash cart next to your daughter, but gee, we wouldn't want her to skip a vaccination.
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#23 of 25 Old 10-05-2008, 09:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Purple Cat View Post
Oh, I second that. Neglect is blindly undertaking vaccinations without educating yourself.
I feel this way about all things parenting. I feel it's so irresponsible to parent w/o any thought/research, just following the culture around you. I mean, do we buy a new car or obtain a new/refi mortgage w/o research, shopping around, and deep seeking? No. Why treat your money better than your children?

Okay, I will step down.

 

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#24 of 25 Old 10-09-2008, 03:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gasmancv View Post
Got this from dr bob's vaccination forum at thevaccinebook.com:

the second edition on page 79, you will find as one sign of child neglect:

* poor attendance for immunisations and school

The Merck Manual states:

Types

There are a number of different types of child neglect and abuse.

Physical Neglect: Not meeting a child's essential needs for food, clothing, and shelter is the most basic form of neglect. But there are many other forms. Parents may not obtain preventive dental or medical care for the child, such as vaccinations and routine physical examinations. Parents may delay obtaining medical care when the child is ill, putting the child at risk of more severe illness and even death.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/signs.cfm

Signs of Neglect

Consider the possibility of neglect when the child:

.../...
* Lacks needed medical or dental care, immunizations, or glasses

Now the above page also states:

The presence of a single sign does not prove child abuse is occurring in a family, but a closer look at the situation may be warranted when these signs appear repeatedly or in combination.

But nevertheless, if a pediatrician is actively concerned when parents do not vaccinate their children, s/he is just doing their job right

__

I was enraged when i saw this

what do you think?
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#25 of 25 Old 10-09-2008, 08:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gasmancv View Post
Parents may not obtain preventive dental or medical care for the child, such as vaccinations and routine physical examinations.
Dude, my kids are SO neglected.
OMG, I had no idea.
I'm such a bad mom!
Whatev.
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