Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccination - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 158 Old 07-17-2008, 10:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lachingona1 View Post
I have done sooooo much research in the last 7 years. I have lots of reasons as to why I don't vaccinate. Some being...

~the ingredients
~the artificial immunity vs natural immunity factor
~vaccines don't have to be proven safe or effective to added to the list of mandated shots
~I don't trust our government or doctors
:


Great post laching! ITA.
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#62 of 158 Old 07-17-2008, 01:04 PM
 
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This issue is still overwhelming for me. I was never vaxed. If you think there is pressure today, try doing it 27 years ago. I had teachers in elementary school call me a liar when I told them I never had a shot. Anyway, due to my upbringing in a no vaxing, try natural remedies first type of home, I have always leaned toward not vaxing.

DP is from another country where they don't vax nearly as much (although it is increasing). He doesn't think that vaxes are bad, but he definitely doesn't understand why the US does so many. And for things like Chicken Pox?! SO we have reached a compromise. DD has only had Polio and DT (no p). We also delayed it. I am comfortable with this, although I continue to research and discuss it from time to time with him. If she gets to be 16 without having caught rubella we may give her the choice of getting that. But I think we are pretty much done. With furture kids, I would like to delay even longer, perhaps until 2 or 3 (or perhaps no vax at all).

I agree with the pp that the fear mongoring and $$ on both sides of the issue really gets in the way and in the end it is kids who suffer. This is maddening to me.

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#63 of 158 Old 07-17-2008, 05:35 PM
 
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Our bottom line, honestly, is a work in progress. I suppose it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, but we keep introducing more information into our analysis, so vaccination is not a choice we have made once but several, several times.

So far, we have delayed/selectively vaxed given: our DD's current and future risk of exposure to the disease, overall health (both short and long term), reactions to illness/vax/etc., natural immunities, research and testing on vaccines, different health organization recommendations and analysis of how they have changed over the years, ingredients in the vaccines, and even something as simple as how we "clicked" with the ped or nurse and how they answered our questions.

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#64 of 158 Old 07-18-2008, 03:40 AM
 
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I always thought that non-vaxers were crazy. Really, I hate to say it, but I did. Deep down I never really believed it was okay to innoculate everyone with everything you can call a "vaccine" though. I think I almost refused to look into the issue because I was afraid I'd change my mind and become one of the "crazy" people.

As a OB nurse, it never made sense to me why I was vaccinating newborns for Hep B. This it what is recommended, this is what the doctors want, but I never pushed anyone into doing it.

My twins were born at 29 weeks. When they were two months old and 6 whole pounds, the NICU asked my permission to vaccinate them and I said yes. They got Polio, Hib, Prevnar, and Hep B. It still gives me a little anxiety to think about how little they were and how many shots they got that day. They were vaccinated right on schedule their first year - including roto which had just come out again, and flu - neither of which I really wanted but for some reason I couldn't bring myself to say No. The 4 month shots were particularly hard on them and they both developed ezcema shortly after.

At the 12 month visit my doc offhandedly mentioned they'd be getting MMR and Varicella at the next visit. I hadn't realized that schools were starting to require Varicella. I thought, "No child of mine will ever get the chicken pox vaccination. That's just stupid." This really set me off. I delved into research, website after website, looking for answers. It's funny how it evolved. At first I just wanted to cut out Varicella. Then I wanted to delay everything, stretching it out as long as possible until they started school. I didn't realize how many docs will drop you as a patient if you don't vaccinate, but I must have known on some level because I wrote my doc a letter (that I never sent) asking her if she'd agree with the schedule I made for future children (that was based on S. Romm's book). I decided I didn't want any vaccine made with aborted fetal tissue. Then I decided I didn't want any vaccine made with thimerisol, mercury, or aluminum. I spent hours researching brands and ingredients.

The stuff I found just made me mad. I thought, "How in the world can the medical community just accept this garbage as fact." Medicine is never one size fits all, except when it comes to vaccines apparently.

Then I found MDC (because I was looking for information on a selective/delayed schedule). Wow. Slowly, every so slowly, I became a non-vaxer (I never made the 15-month appt. so they haven't recieved a shot since 12 months). I remember how funny it made me feel to say it out loud for the first time . Sometimes I think I'm a little crazy - but then I think about how I used to help the nurses by holding my little girls' legs down so they could jab them (3 or 4 times) and a little bit of vomit comes into my mouth. I know I've made the right decision for my family. Even if the girls have done or would have done "fine" with the full schedule, maybe I'm saving a future child from a vaccine injury by learning about it now All I know is that it never felt right to give them those shots, but now I hardly ever worry about VPD's (and NOT because I'm counting on everyone else to be vaccinated to "protect" my children). And if I can stop a little vaccine misinformation from going around (i.e., I never tell my patients that the Hep B shot is required for school), I don't mind being one of the "crazies"
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#65 of 158 Old 07-18-2008, 03:04 PM
 
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I started off thinking that anti-vax people were "crazy hippies." Then I realized/experienced the following:

1. Pharma has always frightened me-- there is just TOO much money involved, and the older I get, the more I am convinced that people are capable of ALL SORTS of evil in the pursuit of money. I have read varying reports about the amount of "profit" vaccines manufacturers are making... in any case, they certainly aren't acting out of beneficence, and the law suit protections that they now enjoy are a HUGE red flag for me. What, exactly, is their motivation to ensure optimal safety for our kids?

2. the chicken pox vaccine. My siblings and I had Cp, it was no big deal AT ALL, and it is a relief to me to know that I will never have to worry about CP exposure during pregnancy. I want my DD to have that same assurance, and because of the widespread vaccination program (which is all about money-- money for the vax makers, money for the companies not having to pay leave to mothers staying how with sick children), I worry that she will not have the opportunity of exposure to the wild virus. As others have mentioned, the increasing shingles problem is a concern of mine as well. For me, this is the best example of a vaccine CREATING a problem which really didn't exist before.

3. HepB vaccine. This one makes me SO angry. I was vaxed for hep b (not researched!) as a teen before a trip out of the country. My DD was at NO risk for this disease, yet she was vaxed in hospital as a newborn. As far as I can tell, this is a policy designed entirely to vax a captive audience before they reach adulthood, NOT to protect babies.

4. my former pediatrician (and so many others I have heard of), who (when asked about splitting the MMR, not even about avoiding it altogether!) acted as though I had asked the most foolish question imaginable. The history of medicine is full of errors-- the wandering womb, blood-letting, flower petals as protection against the plague, etc. Every patient has the right to question whether or not--perhaps--some of the vaccines might be ill-advised. For so many doctors to react so negatively to patients who are just trying to be discerning about their childrens' health is another BIG red flag for me. Vaccines may have eliminated polio and small pox; fewer children are dying from measles, perhaps because of the vaccines. Honestly, I basically do believe that these statements are true. But that DOES NOT mean that my baby should be vaccinated against an STD, or that ten year old needs to be vaccinated against HPV, or that chicken pox has suddenly become a deadly disease.

5. SO MANY mothers believe that their children were directly harmed by vaccination. It is really hard for me to discount this belief, and it makes me angry when doctors/pharma/the media play the "poor addled mama" card. I am a big believer in maternal instinct, even if it can't be "proven" (or if no one wants to prove it..., and I want to see a LOT more research before I allow my kids to be vaccinated.

So basically, I believe that it is my responsibility to 1) research each individual vaccine and decide accordingly. Sometimes I feel like I will need to earn a new degree in order to do so fully... and 2) demand (nicely, if possible ) that I and other parents be treated as reasonable, intelligent people with the right to make educated decisions about our children's health. I have read some journal articles about how to convince troublesome parents (like me) to vaccinate, and they are very disturbing... as though WE are public health enemy #1. All of this coercion and fear-mongering is disrespectful. I fear the day when the government simply takes over and starts vaccinating without parental consent at all... Much of the "consent" these days is about as uninformed as possible, anyway.

Bethany

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#66 of 158 Old 07-18-2008, 09:57 PM
 
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Encouraged by this thread we've started our vax research after much procrastination. DP told her sister that we were researching no/selective/delayed vaccinations. Her sis is a very mainstream nurse. The conversation progressed...
Sis: you can't do that
DP: why?
Sis: it's bad
DP: why?
Sis: On ER a boy died of mumps because he wasn't vaccinated.

I'm frustrated that I'm now in a position where I have to defend my intention to research/consider/contemplate with someone who has clearly not educated herself at all. We haven't even made any decisions yet and already we're being painted as neglectful

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#67 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 01:40 AM
 
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That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?
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#68 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 01:52 AM
 
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This is all new to me and while I'm leaning toward no/selective vax, I'm happy to learn and to discuss and maybe, just maybe be swayed to the other side. I'm not prepared however, to have hollow arguments with people who aren't respectful about the fact that this is a serious issue about which I will do a thesis worth of research on. That's why I'm frustrated that DP told her sister.

I have told many friends/colleagues that we are researching and they have all been very respectful and mostly supportive...but then most of my friends/colleagues tend away from western medicine so I knew I was fairly safe.

I told my Mum who simply said 'I know you won't make any decisions about your babe without the most compelling of arguments.' ...which I take to mean, 'I don't altogether agree but I respect your right to do so.'

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#69 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 10:37 AM
 
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That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?
When people ask, I always tell them I'm "selecting/delaying," though I have learned that it is generally not best to bring up the issue myself (I have a hard time reigning myself in...) When they ask, I usually explain my reasoning about the "obvious" ones-- hep b and chicken pox seem so needless for our lifestyle, etc, and then (maybe) say that my research has led to similar conclusions about other vaxes. I know that most people disagree with me, and I know that some of my friends are *proud* of their decision to do whatever the doctor tells them to do. Interestingly, my mom supports me, and when I (finally) told my mil, she was *relieved*! She had been worried (mostly because of reading about the autism concerns), but didn't want to intrude by raising concerns.

I do try to lend my Sears book to new/expecting moms whether they ask or not, because I know that *I* was not researching this issue enough when I was pregnant... I wish I had read more then, and the mainstream-ness of Sears seems comfortable to most people.

I expect that I'll lose friends over this before my child-rearing days are over, though. Emotions run so high on both sides of this issue....

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#70 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 11:34 AM
 
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That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?
I play it by ear. *Most* people just think you do what you're supposed to - ie vax. But if anyone is actually interested and discussing it, I'm open about it. No reason not to IME. I'm educated, I made an educated choice, I know why I made it and I can explain it.

-Angela
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#71 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 11:52 AM
 
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I told my Mum who simply said 'I know you won't make any decisions about your babe without the most compelling of arguments.' ...which I take to mean, 'I don't altogether agree but I respect your right to do so.'
I would love for my mom to say that. She just rolls her eyes to me and calls me any time there's a threat of any kind of *perceived* outbreak
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#72 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 01:10 PM
 
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I'm in the minority here... all my kids are vaccinated. I did a lot of research on it and decided that for our family, the risks of the diseases were worse than the risks of the vaccines.

We do not do the chicken pox or the hepatitis vaccines. Actually, I should say for my younger two - we DID give my oldest the CP vaccine. I have three daughters and as of now none of them will get the HPV vaccine. Maybe if more information comes out as they get older, we will visit it then, but as of now, no way.

Now all of that said - I have a child with Asperger's, a form of autism. I don't think my child's AS was caused by vaccines. Her first cousin has Rett Syndrome, which is a devastating, severe disorder on the spectrum. She was not vaccinated. I think my daughter has a genetic pre-disposition to being on the Spectrum.

I don't think any one thing causes autistic disorders. I think the people who have them are predisposed to them for some reason - maybe a gentic mutation? Who knows. But for some reason a lot of small factors add up to cause a big problem. Its very possible that vaccines have a role in it, but honestly I think its something newer. I think maybe epidurals, pitocin, or something else synthetic like that around the time of birth or even prenatally probably has a bigger effect on the child with autism than the vaccine. I think that because those are the thigns that have skyrocketed in the past ten to fifteen years, right alongside the autism diagnoses.

Anyway we weighed the pros and cons and with our family's lifestyle, we decided that the kids were more at risk of being injured from the disease itself than from the vaccine, statistically.

But I would never tell anyone to make the same choices we did. People don't have the same lifestyles and I certainly don't perceive unvaxed kids as a threat to mine. As parents we have a duty to thoroughly research what we put into our kids. I encourage every parent to research, research, research before making a choice, especially with something so important as your child's health.
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#73 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 01:47 PM
 
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Thanks for sharing that post, Rose. I would agree that vaccines don't "cause" autism (and there is definitely a large genetic component), although I have seen enough evidence to make me believe that either it can "trigger" it in the succeptable, or that vaccine injury/heavy metal toxicity can cause autism-like syndromes. But, the fact that my father appears to be an undiagnosed Asperger's type did encourage me in avoiding vaccinations.
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#74 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 01:58 PM
 
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I will discuss my position with anyone who seems open to having an honest discussion. I don't fear-monger from my side (ie, you won't hear me saying that if you vax your kids will get autism or if you vax your kids will have allergies or eczema or seizures) so I am not open to discussion with anyone who will try to get me to fear not vaxing. I have had those conversations, and they lead nowhere. I am firm in my conviction, although still doing more research, mainly in an effort to successfully defend my position and explain it to others, as well as provide information to those who might be on the fence. I see it as a risk/benefit analysis. It is also important to learn about the history of vaccines, and the motives behind them.

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#75 of 158 Old 07-19-2008, 07:58 PM
 
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We do not vaccinate at all. When I was pregnant I was planning on doing delayed/selective. Then when I sat down with a list of vaccines and diseases, the only two that scared me were measles and polio. And then I researched the diseases (love both Aviva Romm's book and "How to Raise a Healthy Child in spite of your Doctor") and realized they weren't as scary as I thought. So we didn't do any.

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That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?
It depends. Usually, I don't tell people. I get around by saying things like "not yet", when asked if he's has his _ month shots. I have told my immediate family and only my father had anything to say about. Until I started listing side effects that both me and my sister suffer from. He hasn't said another word since!

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#76 of 158 Old 07-20-2008, 01:06 AM
 
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We havent vaxed our kids either. I was never fearful of being called in for not being a good parent, I am more outraged at the insistence of filling my children with such horrible things. I homebirthed, so that saved me from alot of the pressure. I knew they were bad from the beginning, but really had to find out more for myself. I read and watched documentaries, I even had a friend who wrote to the vaccine companies themselves and asked for a list of ingredients to the vaccines. After she looked up the terminology of the ingredients she and I were both horrified.
But I too, had a family influenced who did not agree with us, my mother in law is a nurse and has worked at baby clinics, so she was a tough one to deal with with our views. You just have to stay strong and commited to your decison if you choose not to vax, and of course, do your research!
I am now facing having to get the vaccine exemption b/c we just decided to put our kids in school. I dont think it will be too hard, just something else we have to do to get ready for school.

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#77 of 158 Old 07-20-2008, 12:50 PM
 
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That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?
I approach this issue like I do with my decision to HB. I don't volunteer the info, because I have no desire to get involved in a pointless dispute with someone who isn't truly interested in either the well-being of my child or opening their own mind to a different idea. At the same time, I won't shy away from the truth. When asked, I tell the truth and try to leave it at that. I have a lot of practice avoiding pointless conflicts, as I was homeschooled K-12.

I will engage in discussion with someone who is genuinely interested, or I feel deserves to know my reasoning (grandparents, some family members, close friends). I also have had many opportunities already to casually bring up some of these subjects with newly pg friends and coworkers. I will continue to encourage women I know to make empowered birth choices and to continue making informed childcare decisions long after birth.

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I'm not prepared however, to have hollow arguments with people who aren't respectful about the fact that this is a serious issue about which I will do a thesis worth of research on.
Exactly. Just as non/selective vaxers need to be thoughtful and nonjudgemental/confrontational when talking about this issue, we also have the right to NOT engage in a discussion with someone who is not so respectful.

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I told my Mum who simply said 'I know you won't make any decisions about your babe without the most compelling of arguments.' ...which I take to mean, 'I don't altogether agree but I respect your right to do so.'
That is awesome! My mom doesn't agree with HB, but when one of her friends told her not to "let" me HB, my mom replied "I taught my kids to make good, informed decisions and to do what they believe is right. I am not going to fault my daughter for doing exactly what I taught her to do." Moms can be so awsome!

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#78 of 158 Old 07-20-2008, 10:56 PM
 
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I moved from a state with a philosophical exemption to NY state which only has religious exemption (I believe). Does anyone have direct experience with the religious exemption. I mean what can you claim to be? If anything, I'd say I'm buddhist, but I don't have tons of religious knowledge to point to, to back up an exemption claim. So now I am due with #2 baby I don't know what to do about VAX.

With my 1st child we did partial and delayed vax. It worked out really well but waivers were easy to come by where we used to live.

Now I'm in a different state I just don't know what to do. I have heard its really hard to get a waiver here in NY.
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#79 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 08:35 AM
 
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I moved from a state with a philosophical exemption to NY state which only has religious exemption (I believe). Does anyone have direct experience with the religious exemption. I mean what can you claim to be? If anything, I'd say I'm buddhist, but I don't have tons of religious knowledge to point to, to back up an exemption claim. So now I am due with #2 baby I don't know what to do about VAX.

With my 1st child we did partial and delayed vax. It worked out really well but waivers were easy to come by where we used to live.

Now I'm in a different state I just don't know what to do. I have heard its really hard to get a waiver here in NY.
You don't to explain your religous exemption. Just state that you have it. When you have to turn it in for something I include a copy of the state law. If someone pushes me I state it's personal but no one has ever bothered us, much less asked for the exemption.
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#80 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 11:23 AM
 
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You don't to explain your religous exemption. Just state that you have it. When you have to turn it in for something I include a copy of the state law. If someone pushes me I state it's personal but no one has ever bothered us, much less asked for the exemption.
Actually, sadly (and most likely illegally- but it stands until challenged) in NY you DO have to explain yourself...

-Angela
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#81 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 02:18 PM
 
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Actually, sadly (and most likely illegally- but it stands until challenged) in NY you DO have to explain yourself...

-Angela
Is that new?We lived in NY til DD was 3...
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#82 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 04:06 PM
 
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Is that new?We lived in NY til DD was 3...
No, not new, but enforced differently in different areas.

-Angela
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#83 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 05:00 PM
 
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So if you do have to explain yourself in NY (which is what I'd heard) does anyone know what that means exactly? Do you, for example, have to quote from "your" religious texts? Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks.
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#84 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 06:19 PM
 
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I'd like to know as well about the religious exemption in NY state, as we are in NYC. I worry that we will hit some really tough stuff when it comes to school age.

We have not vaxed at all, and DS had seizures at birth (they were an electrolyte imbalance, so no real threat of them recurring) but I have seen a history of seizures listed as a contraindiation for vaxing, so I use that as an "excuse" if a conversation on it goes weird.

My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?

It has been my experience that it's easy to be at least moderately comfortable, if not outright self-righteous with a non-mainstream choice as long as there are no real scary consequences. For instance, I felt totally comfortable with planning a home birth, and then we had life threatening complications. Just the thing that people scare you with about HB. I don't regret my HB, in fact I plan to have a second child at home as well, but I have had to do some soul searching. It was easy before the life/death situation to be a tad smug about HB.

With vax, I have to accept the possibilty, however remote, of my child getting a serious illness. Having already watched my child almost die, I get it that healthy living does not prevent serious medical issues. Just like so many choices in parenthood, the responsibility is heavy...

Wife to Bear - Mom to DS 7, gifted with SPD and DD 2, a Joybunny!
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#85 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 06:54 PM
 
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NY is tricky. Those of you there- I suggest a thorough search of the vax forums for info. It's not difficult to create a proper letter that won't get thrown out, but it is a more complex requirement than other states.

-Angela
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#86 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 06:57 PM
 
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My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?
We've not (as far as I know) had any of the vaccine available diseases yet.

There are several posters who have dealt with some of them though.

-Angela
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#87 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 08:52 PM
 
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We havent gotten any either, but if we did, I would probably stay home with my children and nurse them through it. I had a friend who does not vax whose kids got whooping cough, and thats what she did, I dont believe her views on vaccines changed at all.
Here's a link that might help some of you in NY, its New Yorkers for vaccine info and choice; http://goodlight.net/nyvic/

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#88 of 158 Old 07-21-2008, 09:42 PM
 
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We havent gotten any either, but if we did, I would probably stay home with my children and nurse them through it. I had a friend who does not vax whose kids got whooping cough, and thats what she did, I dont believe her views on vaccines changed at all.
Nor would it for me, esp since vaccinated children get it too....
My DS got RSV @ 5 months, we were admited to the hospital, he never went in the "crib" and we nursed through it. Didn't change my thoughts on vaccines one bit.
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#89 of 158 Old 07-22-2008, 07:44 PM
 
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My son is almost 3 and has had no vaccines yet. We did our research before he was born and then opted to wait. Now, with an appt. on Friday we are thinking of starting a selective schedule.
We'll look at the research again, but can any selective vaxxers tell me which they started or would start with?

Especially considering he has a 5 month old sister, goes to a small (6 kids) daycare 2 X week and there is a lot of whooping cough in our county?

Happy, busy mama of 2 - A (9/05) and W (2/08)
Acupuncturist to pregnant and post partum mamas!
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#90 of 158 Old 07-22-2008, 08:15 PM
 
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There's a whole Selective/Delayed forum here. And here's a thread with people sharing their S/D schedule.
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