Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccination - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 158 Old 07-09-2008, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccinations

Welcome to our third Natural Family Living discussion: Baby’s Early Years: Vaccinations. This discussion will key in on Part 2 – Baby’s Early Years: Vaccinations from Peggy O’Mara’s book Natural Family Living.

Some of the topics we'll discuss are;
  • Vaccination Concerns
  • Risks and Adverse Effects of Vaccinations
  • Vaccine Effectiveness
  • Natural and Artificial Immunity
  • Increase in Chronic Disease
  • Risks and Benefits of Disease and Vaccinations
  • Current Vaccines and Schedules
  • Vaccines and Big Business
  • What are Vaccines?
  • History of Vaccines
  • Vaccines and Parents' Rights
  • Making the Decision
  • Selective and Delayed?

We realize that this is a topic that many of our members are passionate about. Please keep in mind that Mothering is neither pro or anti vaccine. You will encounter posts here that do not feel right to you and that’s ok. This is an open dialog and we ask that everyone be respectful of others' opinions. Take what feels right to you and leave the rest behind. Please be respectful to all our members so that the workshop can be a place of meaningful and respectful discussion for all our members.

We would like to invite everyone to join us no matter where you are in your thinking or feelings. These discussions are meant to be nonjudgmental so please keep in mind when reading members' responses that this is a true discussion based on Natural Family Living and not a place to debate or criticize. Feel free to tell your story; what were your initial thoughts about vaccines? Do you feel good information was available to you? What have you learned that you’d like to share? What would you like more information on?

We’re excited to offer this workshop and hope it will give our members a glimpse into the grassroots of Mothering magazine and Natural Family Living.

This workshop will be facilitated by our moderators Arwyn and Amnesiac. They are here to guide the discussion and keep it on topic. They will occasionally post references or ask questions to keep the conversation flowing. Please feel free to contact them at any time with questions, suggestions or concerns. Please keep in mind our workshop guidelines and current user agreement at all times.

We are compiling a Natural Family Living Resources Sticky which we will update with each workshop. Please feel free to refer to it for more information. For articles and information on our current workshop, please see the Baby’s Early Years; Vaccinations page.
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#2 of 158 Old 07-11-2008, 08:54 PM
 
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I'm so glad we have the opportunity to share in this vaccination workshop. I hope you'll all enjoy the discussion & walk away learning something new.

I think this subject is one that many parents find incredibly overwhelming. It's often hard to know where to even start. Deciding how I felt about vaccination in general and how I felt about vaccination for my own family was an extremely long road. This issue was actually how I ended up finding my way here to MDC.

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and challenges!
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#3 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 12:58 AM
 
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I also have been learning through Mothering--started after my dd turned one and I had to cancel the appt-twice and then found a new Dr .
That was 8 1/2 years agoo--I was on the internet every day for 6 years --here mostly.
I have a 1 1/2 year old now also --my 20 year old ,16 year old and 9 year old are learning along with me .
I have a collection of books on health and vaccines and share my information with all who are on the same path as I .

I am still learning all the time -my challenge is trying to keep up with all the new information now that I am working full time .Thanks for being here .

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#4 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 09:17 AM
 
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When I was pregnant I thought the No-Vax people walked a little too close to the edge for my tastes. I had an unplanned c-section and was in the hospital for a few days after DS was born, and by the third day I had a new roomie who had just given birth that morning. She was, shall we say, a little rough around the edges and when her OB came in to visit (whom I knew to be a high-risk OB) she mentioned having to give her baby the HepB shot. I snickered to myself and thought "OMG, that mom has hepatitis!" which was really bad and judgmental. Then the next day they came at MY son with a HepB shot, and I was thinking "Hey, wait a minute!!!" because IIIIIiiiii didn't have hepatitis. I was still dumb enough to follow, but it put up the first red flag, and then at DS's 2-month appt I discussed with the pedi how vaxes were making me uncomfortable, and he talked me into a slower schedule. After that, I started coming here and reading more and more about vaccines and at the 4-month appt I told the pedi I didn't want anymore vax, or to at least suspend them. It was sooo uncomfortable, the pedi seemed very sullen after I had mentioned it, but he's backed off ever since.

There's so much to know about them, and it's true, VERY overwhelming! I still don't know what our plans our, if we'll vax later or not. Stressful!
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#5 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's interesting what puts up the red flags isn't it? For me, it was the Chicken Pox vaccine. I was S&D and then a nurse said "and now we have a chick pox vaccine!" I laughed thinking she was joking and made a comment about "do you have the one for bruises and common cold too?" When I found out she was serious I really stared doing serious research. I didn't have internet when ds was a baby, and everything I found in libraries was very pro-vaccine. It was difficult to find good information.
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#6 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 12:14 PM
 
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It took me a long time to finally be ok with the decision to not vax. Instinctively I knew from the first shot they gave my ds in Canada that it was not good, not what I wanted etc. It's hard to explain that feeling, but I knew I wasn't 100% ok with it. Eventually, after a lot of pressure from my Dr I decided to stick to the *basic* school vax schedule in Canada (doesn't include HepB, RotaVirus, Chickenpox & a few others).

So 4.5 years later my dd is born in the USA and the ped, hospital staff, other Moms are telling me I should get the HepB vax on baby's birth-day.....that's when I thought this is CRAZY!!! I read more (again!), I watched some good videos (Tenpenny), and read the forums here and after giving my dd her first vax at 3mo and lots of crying I KNEW that it was NO more vaccinations for us! It was not an easy choice, or an easy journey to get to this point, but I feel 100% sure this is right for us. We didn't give my ds his 4/5yo shots either.

The hardest part for me now is giving myself a break; i feel guilty about the shots that i have given my kids
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#7 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 12:18 PM
 
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also....I asked myself why did I have my kids vaccinated, and the answer was because I felt pressured, not because I thought it was a great idea!
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#8 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 01:39 PM
 
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I feel totally overwhelmed by the vax debate and decision. I don't feel like I have the time, energy, and knowledge to make a truly informed choice. I am scared of the vaxes but also the diseases for the most part. With my toddler, I was critical of the vaxes but ultimately got convinced by my doc to do most of them. We skipped Hep B, Pox, and MMR and I think she never finished Hib. Now I am revisiting the issue with my new babe and really wishing I had more time to read. I read Stephanie Cave and started the Sears Vax book but I'd like to read more really anti vax stuff. Mostly I hate all the fear mongering on both sides of the issue. I am frustrated that the $$$ stands in the way of evidence.
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#9 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 06:46 PM
 
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I read the Dr Sears book on vax and am pretty leery of anything more than his selective vax schedule now. We're in the process of selecting a pediatrician now who will not just tolerate but actively support selective vax. We interviewed one who had not done any reading on the whole debate, particularly the possible effects of aluminum (which is what freaks me out). He pointed out that no studies had been done that showed any problems from aluminum, which for me is a huge problem. He seemed to think no studies = no problems. For me, that's an argument ex silentio. He did promise to read up on it but also promised to fight us every time we came in about the vax. So now I'm looking into other pediatricians. I do think I've found one, but he's quite a distance from us...
One question I have is whether people have had trouble with daycares/schools not accepting children on delayed schedules.

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#10 of 158 Old 07-12-2008, 07:23 PM
 
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We do not vax. at all. we had no problems with daycare. To me, when my Dr told me when DD was 2 weeks old she would get 5 vaccines at once in 2 weeks my gut said NO WAY. I went with that and researched like crazy. I found a ped that would support us and she is a very healthy 8 year old. DS is 1 year, I think if he had been vaccinated our skin issues would be 10 fold. They say a childs immune system is not complete til age 8, makes sense that bombarding them when they are developing so fast causes problems.
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#11 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 10:08 AM
 
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My husband and I decided not to vax our dd before her birth. I have always been very leary of what I put into my own body and I knew I needed to protect dd from these things as well. She's now an extremely healthy two yo who's been to our family doc exactly once at three months (mostly for the benefit of my MIL ).

Stacy - mom to Lily 5-20-06 , Angel, stillborn @ 25 wks 12-17-07 , and Cami 4-21-09.
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#12 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 11:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Materfamilias View Post
One question I have is whether people have had trouble with daycares/schools not accepting children on delayed schedules.
In most cases, you can't *technically* vax like that and have kids in daycares/schools. The way around it is to get a religious exemption and not tell them about any further vaxes.

-Angela
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#13 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
In most cases, you can't *technically* vax like that and have kids in daycares/schools. The way around it is to get a religious exemption and not tell them about any further vaxes.

-Angela
This is what we do. Ds got the regular schedule through nine months. He hasn't been back for anymore since. I primarily wanted to wait on the MMR, but at this time I see no point in it. Ds is 2 yo and is only in daycare now, but I have the exemption for when I need it.

Current daycare only cares about updated physical, hasn't demanded updated vax records yet.
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#14 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 02:19 PM
 
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Well, this was supposed to be my Welcome! post, but I'm a little late. Anyway, welcome, and thanks for the great discussion so far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amnesiac View Post
I think this subject is one that many parents find incredibly overwhelming. It's often hard to know where to even start.
This is me. We haven't vaccinated Naked Baby because my general philosophy is one needs convincing evidence to justify any intervention (in pregnancy, birth, and life in general), and I'm just not convinced -- but I'm not convinced in either direction. It does feel absolutely overwhelming. Frankly, I feel like I just don't have the time and energy to research the subject fully (I see people on here, as a previous poster mentioned, spending almost all their time investigating the issue, and I just have too much else to do!), and try to distill truth from all the noise. I feel OK with our decision to rely on the default of not vaccinating, and I would encourage anyone to look into the issue at least enough to know to question all the pro-vaccine propaganda, but I can't say I know this is The Right Choice.
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Mostly I hate all the fear mongering on both sides of the issue. I am frustrated that the $$$ stands in the way of evidence.
This is how I feel too.
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#15 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RedPony View Post
My husband and I decided not to vax our dd before her birth. I have always been very leary of what I put into my own body and I knew I needed to protect dd from these things as well. She's now an extremely healthy two yo who's been to our family doc exactly once at three months (mostly for the benefit of my MIL ).
ditto here. Vax does not sit right with myself or dh.
we went once to the ped (at 9mo) hust so he could count her fat rolls

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#16 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 04:12 PM
 
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I vaccinated dd#1 on schedule through 9 months just b/c I didn't even know there was an option or choice. I just blindly went to the well baby visits and did as I was told.

DD#2 has had no shots, other than the Vit K shot in the hospital.

I feel very overwhelmed and scared either way, but the bottom line for me is that I cannot inject known toxins into my little ones. I believe there really must be a better way and I have faith that things will change. So, I'm holding out and in the meantime I have a philosophical exemption for schools- which is very easy to get for those of you who feel overwhelmed by that.
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#17 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 04:27 PM
 
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not every state has philisophical exemptions. all have religous though
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#18 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kiddoson View Post
not every state has philisophical exemptions. all have religous though
Yes, sorry, I didn't mean the philosophical part was easy, I meant getting any type of exemption is relatively easy.
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#19 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 04:36 PM
 
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not every state has philisophical exemptions. all have religous though
Except I believe WV and MS. Last I heard they do not offer exemptions.

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#20 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 04:40 PM
 
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It's interesting what puts up the red flags isn't it? For me, it was the Chicken Pox vaccine.
Me too...long before I ever considered having children (I was pretty late to the baby game) My BFF had teens when it came out and they wanted to give it to them...they had already both had CP. So on top of the vaccine itself even existing, they wanted to give it to children who had already had cp...made me go hmmmmm.

My mother was a public health nurse and was at the time in charge of well babies for our city. She got grants for vaccination programs etc...so I was coming from a very pro vax, pro medicine place. I first had to wrap my head around my mother being wrong!

Unfortunately, she passed before I decided to attempt child rearing, but part of me thinks I was waiting for her not to be around...I can't imagine what it would have been like to parent around her, let alone HB, no CIO, co-sleep, delay solids, no circ, extended BF and everything else that went against EVERYTHING she believed in. I think the vax issue would have destroyed our relationship if she were still here. (the no circ thing would have put her in the hospital with a stroke if I had had a boy!)

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#21 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 05:08 PM
 
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Except I believe WV and MS. Last I heard they do not offer exemptions.
Those two only have medical exemptions which are hard to get and close to useless.

-Angela
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#22 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 08:16 PM
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I vaccinated my oldest kids (now 15 and 11) because it never occurred to me not to. I was 18 when my son was born and no one ever suggested that I consider not vaccinating or researching more closely before I let them pump my kids up with who knows what...

It frustrates me still. I live in a moderately-sized southern town and there are practically NO pediatricians offices that support NFL, no- or selective-vaxing, AP, or anything that is really important to me now with my 3rd child, my 13 mo DD2.

I've just bought Aviva Jill Romm's "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" based on the recommendations on the Vax board here at the MDC and although I'm only 1/4 of the way through, I'm already simply astonished at what I'm reading. At the things no one ever bothered to tell us. Stuff that should be common knowledge if parents are going to be compelled by the government to vax their kids...

It bothers me, big.

And yet almost everyone I know thinks I'm crazy to consider selective/no vax. Even when I share resources and concerns with them...they still think I'm just a conspiracy theorist nut or something.

It's so frustrating.
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#23 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 10:25 PM
 
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I'm 18 weeks pregnant with our first babe. I've been an MDC member since long before ttc and I feel like I've been reading and researching about everything on the parenting continuum for years...except for vaccinations because it's simply overwhelming. Every week, DP and I look at each other and say 'we HAVE to start researching vax, this week!'

I know that we'll be delayed and selective at the very least but with very little research, my gut says not to vax at all though I don't think DP is on the same page.

I hope that this workshop is a nice, gentle intro into the scary world of vax.

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#24 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 11:24 PM
 
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Welcome and happy to particpate. I have a dd Liz who is 6years old in public school and I have my 2 yr old dd, MAggie, a former micro preemie now a healthy 2 yr old.

With both we do choose to vax, but delayed and selected here and there. Maggie was 15/16 weeks premature and with her, we had decided to delay even longer than w Liz. Well then she was born early. I remember them shoving this sign here and there medical waivor under my nose and going thru the long list. It came to vax, they do not vax preemies (even 1 lb 12 oz ones like my MAggie) by "corrected" age, but actauly age since out of the womb. So she would have been 29 weeks gestanial and giving her 4 big honker shots by the AAP standards. I would not sign the vax ok form and I flat out told the fellow, when it comes time to vax, we would discuss it then. She seemed impressed by my confidence and way of saying- lets keep this kid alive and get to that stage first before we start shooting her up with all this stuff.

She received 7 blood transfusions during her hospital stay (this is pretty standard with micro preemies) so I agreed at age 8 weeks to give the Heb shot but I then spaced those out as well. When it came time to vax, I said I would follow up w my ped ( a former attending in that nicu and well respected) and she could vax her. I also knew I would be seeing the ped weekly for several months and we could get them done within those time frames. MY ped is also a pro vax but pro delay and selective vax.

I also had to get a few shots for Liz to get ready for kindergarden. My ped said- we could do them over time since I brought MAggie in for follow up all the time.

I think at age 2 1/2 she has had most, but I dont think she had the MMR. We would do one here and then one there and it seemed fine. The idea of giving all those at once just dosent jive (but then again, thats why I am at MDC!) and I always tell those who are pro all the vaxes at once- the aap dosent say require, it says schedule and its recommended which is a loose term in my book.

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#25 of 158 Old 07-13-2008, 11:58 PM
 
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I first had red flags about vaccinations when I began reading "A Shot In the Dark" by Barbara Loe Fisher. I was so moved by her book that I began researching vaccinations in general---something I had never questioned. I was pregnant with my first and it was 2002---the year that thimerosal was scheduled to be taken out of production (but not pulled from the shelves). There was no credible support in mainstream medicine (like we have Dr. Sears now), to help me with the doctors----but I had already decided on my own "delayed vaccine schedule." There would be no birth dose of HepB; no thimerosal, no more than 2 shots at a time; no live vaccines until age 3. I didn't start vaccines until he was 3 months old. I broke up the MMR. I have followed the same course with my dd. I want them vaccinated, but I want it done on my terms, with careful research and plenty of time between shots. It's an overwhelming, almost full time job to keep up with this process and the exemption issues, but to me---there was no battle more worth it than this one. Now my biggest fight is with the Catholic school, as they will not allow religious exemptions--and I want to be able to opt out of a vaccine if I want to. I guess that's material for another thread.
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#26 of 158 Old 07-14-2008, 01:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by berkeleyp View Post
I feel totally overwhelmed by the vax debate and decision. I don't feel like I have the time, energy, and knowledge to make a truly informed choice. I am scared of the vaxes but also the diseases for the most part. With my toddler, I was critical of the vaxes but ultimately got convinced by my doc to do most of them. We skipped Hep B, Pox, and MMR and I think she never finished Hib. Now I am revisiting the issue with my new babe and really wishing I had more time to read. I read Stephanie Cave and started the Sears Vax book but I'd like to read more really anti vax stuff. Mostly I hate all the fear mongering on both sides of the issue. I am frustrated that the $$$ stands in the way of evidence.
Quote:
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It does feel absolutely overwhelming. Frankly, I feel like I just don't have the time and energy to research the subject fully (I see people on here, as a previous poster mentioned, spending almost all their time investigating the issue, and I just have too much else to do!), and try to distill truth from all the noise.
I feel the same way- I don't feel justified making a decision either way until I have all the facts, and I just don't have the time to do the kind of research that I need to. So I too am going with the default of no vax.

When DD was born, I was already somewhat anti-vax, but DP was somewhat pro-vax... so since we hadn't fully made up our minds, we gave in to the pressure of the ped and allowed one round of shots. That was when DD was 2 months, and that very day was the beginning of her severe food allergies... I am absolutely certain that they were triggered by the vaccines- they just overloaded her immune system, and her body started rejecting foods (through my BM). I am still, 7 months later, struggling with her food reactions, and my diet is now down to less than 10 foods. I kick myself every day for allowing her to get the one round of shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjanelles View Post
I've just bought Aviva Jill Romm's "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" based on the recommendations on the Vax board here at the MDC and although I'm only 1/4 of the way through, I'm already simply astonished at what I'm reading. At the things no one ever bothered to tell us. Stuff that should be common knowledge if parents are going to be compelled by the government to vax their kids...
I just checked that book out from my library for like the 3rd time... I'm hoping that this time I can at least start reading it before it's due.

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
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#27 of 158 Old 07-14-2008, 11:42 AM
 
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I'm curious what other books people have used to help make their decisions. A lot of them are outdated. Since they just took the mercury out in 2002, doesn't that make any book written prior somewhat useless?

Here is what I found that were written since 2002:


The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child (Sears Parenting Library) by Robert Sears (Paperback - Oct 22, 2007)

Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine's Greatest Lifesaver by Arthur Allen

Vaccine Safety Manual for Concerned Families and Health Practitioners: Guide to Immunization Risks and Protection by Neil Z. ****** and Russell, M.D. Blaylock (Paperback - April 10, 2008)

Do Vaccines Cause That?! A Guide for Evaluating Vaccine Safety Concerns by Martin G. Myers and Diego Pineda (Paperback - Jun 16, 2008)

RAISING A VACCINE FREE CHILD by WENDY LYDALL (Paperback - Feb 4, 2005)

Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective by Neil Z. ****** (Paperback - Jan 1, 2008)

Has anyone read any of these besides the Sears?
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#28 of 158 Old 07-14-2008, 06:33 PM
 
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"Autism --a natural medicine guide" by Stephanie Marohn is excellent (athough the title would not seem like a vaccine guide; it's an environmental guide in general); "What your doctor may not tell you about childhood vaccinations" by Stephanie Cave, is outstanding. Also, "Children with Starving Brains" by Jaqueline McCandless, deals with the MMR and leaky gut issue. And if you're up for it, read "Evidence of Harm" by David Kirby. These people are pioneers in books about vaccinations--and the effects on the body. McCandless is more "scientific" in her writing, but Stephanie Cave is VERY readable. Kirby's book is mostly about the CDC/FDA/Drug Companies and the alleged "cover-up" of the downside of vaccination in the US.
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#29 of 158 Old 07-15-2008, 12:42 AM
 
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This is my first post on MDC - I've been put off because I don't know what ds and all that stuff means (where is the dictionary for this site?) but I want to be involved in the vacc. discussion so here goes. I read like crazy when our daughter was born but now am just busy and stopped taking her to her "routine" check-ups after being harrassed again at her 15 mo. check-up - I had heard this doc was so great - supportive of alternative vacc. schedules - but since my "alternative" was to do none and take the time instead to try to pick her brain and talk about it - well - it just wore me out. I lie about it to my family because they are all medical and far right and my daughter's dad has backed off and left it at . .if something happens . .it is on my shoulders . . . so some days when it strikes me she is perfectly full of joy and health and beauty - maybe today is the day I should go make her sick and get her some shots . . my dream was to find a book that said here are your options 1) no vacc. 2) plan A 3) plan B 4) plan C 5) follow normal medical protocol . . . but I never found it and haven't found a doc to work with me on it . .it seems either you do all or nothing or you come up with your own plan and that feels so complex. So . . now we do nothing and hope that we don't get exposed to polio (because it is in the Amish population a few hours away in Western WI) or to measles (because it is in Milwaukee, a few hours in the other direction) . . .etc. . . we continue to breast feed (tonight at my dad's . .my stepmom said . .do you think you're cute? breastfeeding her when she is 21 months old? it is ridiculous. I repeated my mantra - we are following the WHO's recommendation of breastfeeding 'til age 2 and then letting her self-wean after that . . . anyways - tired of crap from my family and glad to hear ideas from others about this. Thanks!
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#30 of 158 Old 07-15-2008, 12:48 AM
 
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