103 fever in 6.5 month old WWYD? UPDATE post #52 - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

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#211 of 222 Old 04-18-2009, 04:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Assuming baby has bacteria A, and if antibiotic for bacteria B is prescribed, she is no better or worse for having not taken the antibiotic. Only if antibiotic B was indicated, is is useful. Antibiotics are not indicated for treating viral illness. I would want a more complete diagnosis before taking an antibiotic which could be *unnecessary* and *harmful*. I would seek further assessment IF baby is ill. Mama indicates baby is no longer ill. I don't recall the exact dates baby had the couple doses of antibiotics, but it is about a week ago. Seems that the situation is resolved.
The problem is that the OP decided not to have bloodwork done on her child so how exactly were the Dr's to determine which antibiotic was the right one.

OP - no one here was trying to attack you, they were only trying to help you understand the serious nature of your son's illness. Sometimes it is hard to hear advice when it is not what you were hoping for but every single poster here only has the best interest of your son in mind with their messages. My DH is still recovering from bacterial pneumonia that he was diagnosed with over 10 days ago. While you maay dislike using antibiotics the alternate is much much worse.

If nothing else please make sure that your child is given a clan bill of health from a Dr before you board a plane.
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#212 of 222 Old 04-18-2009, 04:31 PM
 
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I have a few dead horses which I choose to beat. The MYTH and FEAR associated with discontinuing UNNECESSARY antibiotics, in the event of improperly prescribed (viral illness), or excessive diarrhea (antibiotic induced diarrhea-which could be dangerous C. difficile overgrowth), is one of them. There is no "rule" or "obligation" to continue an UNNECESSARY antibiotic "once started". That just *further* sensitizes bacteria to the antibiotic, INCREASING the risk of developing antibiotic-resistant bacteria in your child, or in your own gut.

I fully support consulting or notifying the prescribing physician to discuss follow-up, if antibiotics are started and need to be discontinued.


However, it is NOT "harmless", and is potentially dangerous, to continue the same antibiotics with excessive diarrhea, due to dehydration and electrolyte imbalance risks, especially with an infant pooping 42 times in three days. Greater than SIX diarrhea stools in a 24 hour period should be reported to the prescribing physician, and NOT continue the antibiotic blindly due to some perceived "obligation".

Children get upper respiratory infections on average 6-8 times per year. The healthy body can recover from bacterial and viral illnesses, without antibiotics.

"Pneumonia" is a subjective diagnosis, not one which is black or white, without more complete testing and clinical data.

Unnecessary antibiotics ARE dangerous! Antibiotics damage the integrity of the microbial balance in the gut.
The healthy gut microflora is 70-80% of the immune system. Impaired immune systems are less effective at healing the body.

Question antibiotics.
Do not continue them blindly.

[/rant]
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#213 of 222 Old 04-18-2009, 04:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Unnecessary antibiotics ARE dangerous! Antibiotics damage the integrity of the microflora in the gut.[/B]
Pat
Technically, necessary antibiotics aren't great for the gut either.

To keep it short:
Baby comes in sick, diagnosed with pneumonia (based on symptoms and xray). Do you wait 12, 24, 48, 72 hours to make sure it's bacterial, risking the baby's LIFE, or treat, risking having to repair the gut? Cause the gut can be repaired. Dead babies can't. A baby with pneumonia might not have 12 hours to try homeopathic/natural methods on while you wait on cultures, or even 6 hours.

If there is a life threatening diagnosis, it's always better to err on the side of caution. Even if it mean the baby/person might get unnecessary antibiotics.

I'm talking pneumonia here - not simple or easy to treat infections. Pneumonia is very dangerous and waiting (or forgoing) antibiotic treatment is more dangerous yet.

Amy ~ Web Designing Single Mom to 4: DD14, DS12, DS5, DS3
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#214 of 222 Old 04-18-2009, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
I have a few dead horses which I choose to beat. The MYTH and FEAR associated with discontinuing UNNECESSARY antibiotics, in the event of improperly prescribed (viral illness), or excessive diarrhea (antibiotic induced diarrhea-which could be dangerous C. difficile overgrowth), is one of them. There is no "rule" or "obligation" to continue an UNNECESSARY antibiotic "once started". That just *further* sensitizes bacteria to the antibiotic, INCREASING the risk of developing antibiotic-resistant bacteria in your child, or in your own gut.
Slightly OT, but do you have links about this? I thought I had read that once you start antibiotics, even if not needed, they should be finished because of all the bacteria that we are usually colonized with that are not usually harmful, but can sometimes be. I thought that part of the concern was making THOSE resistant as well. But I well could be wrong. I would love to have more info on this.

thanks!

-Angela
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#215 of 222 Old 04-19-2009, 12:55 PM
 
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A baby with pneumonia might not have 12 hours to try homeopathic/natural methods on while you wait on cultures, or even 6 hours.
I agree, or you may get to the stage my DD was, on a ventilator and IV antibiotics.

I really wish your baby all the best, but please be aware, pneumonia can be very serious, I'm not saying it is 100% of the time, but it can be.
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#216 of 222 Old 04-19-2009, 01:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
<snip>There is no "rule" or "obligation" to continue an UNNECESSARY antibiotic "once started". That just *further* sensitizes bacteria to the antibiotic, INCREASING the risk of developing antibiotic-resistant bacteria in your child, or in your own gut.
Pat
With respect, this is innacurate. Bacteria do not become "sensitized" to antibiotics. They are either incompletely or completely susceptible to the antibiotic or they are not. Antibiotic resistance occurs when a population of bacteria are incompletely killed by an incomplete course of antibiotics.

Just like any population, there are bacteria in any given bacterial population that are more susceptible to an abx than others. When you start a course of antibiotics, the most susceptible are killed off first and the less susceptible take longer. If you do not take the antibiotic long enough to kill the less susceptible, those are left at the end of the treatment. These grow and produce a new population of less susceptible bacteria. One or two may develop complete resistance and this complete resistance can be transfered by a variety of ways (plasmid transfer etc) so that the entire population is now resistant to the drug.


Completing a full course of antibiotics does not increase the chances of microbial resistance.

I do agree that if a particular antibiotic is making an individual very ill and it has been determined that the abx was not necessary in the first place, it may be beneficial to stop taking the drug. The pros and cons of this must be carefully weighed before proceeding though.


OP, I hope your baby makes a speedy recovery. In a child that young, I would not hesitate to give antibiotics for confirmed pneumonia.


ETA: In terms of pneumonia, it's usually not ever a choice between antibiotic A and antibiotic B and only one or the other will work. Generally a broad spectrum antibiotic that covers most causative agents implicated in bacterial pneumonia it the first course of treatment. IF the infection does not respond to the broad spectrum, a swab/sputum sample etc. will be taken and a more specific causative agent will be determined if possible. In this case, a more specific antibiotic may be used.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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#217 of 222 Old 04-19-2009, 01:36 PM
 
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Ironically, I'm running out the door to do a presentation for our local Holistic group about probiotics. Please see the links about developing antibiotic resistance in post #141. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=141


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#218 of 222 Old 04-19-2009, 01:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamato3wild ponnie View Post
To put it like this....My baby is not ill anymore....with in 2 days..of the pneumonia dx.... his cough and wheezing went away....he is happy, nursing well, sleeping well, playing well...am i supposed to sit here and wait for my baby to get sick again? No...he is fine...if anything comes up i will take action asap.
We are going to see the doctor on monday to get "that clean bill of health".
My baby is 7 months today, weighs 20+pounds...he is ok.

It's very possible that the antibiotics your baby did take were enough to kill most of the bacteria causing his issues. Stopping them may or may not have put him at risk. I hope he continues to improve!

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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#219 of 222 Old 04-19-2009, 01:51 PM
 
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Good links.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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#220 of 222 Old 04-19-2009, 02:07 PM
 
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Completing a full course of antibiotics does not increase the chances of microbial resistance.
Do you have a link with evidence to show this? My understanding is that even full courses, used as directed, absolutely contribute to the resistance issue.

-Angela
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#221 of 222 Old 04-19-2009, 02:34 PM
 
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Alegna, it is my personal understanding that any antibiotic use carries with it the risk of contributing to resistance. However, completing a full course of an appropriate antibiotic as directed does not or should not increase the chances of contributing resistance over the basal risk. I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in making that statment.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs194/en/

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Much evidence supports the view that the total consumption of antimicrobials is the critical factor in selecting re*sistance.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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#222 of 222 Old 05-10-2009, 12:17 PM
 
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I am not saying it's "right" but I can understand where OP is coming from. My DS was "diagnosed" with pneumonia 5 times before he was 2, but the diagnosis was only ever by a doc listening to his chest and prescribing abx. 4 of the 5 times I took him to the doc were only to get a note for work, not b/c he seemed particularly sick, and we never ended up giving the abx. (The one time he seemed particularly sick - the first time - after the walk in doc said he had pneumonia and we should give abx I went to the ER, where the doc said not to give him the abx prescribed and sent us home saying he just had a cold). It is hard to know what to do.

To the posters response to my earlier post:
Quote:
Are you saying your children are generally healthy? Because this makes me think that their immune systems are not working as they should be.
Yes, they are generally healthy. Not sure what you mean. DS is in daycare and puts EVERYTHING in his mouth so I'm sure his immune system was getting bombarded. He recovered within 24 hours of being "diagnosed" (without blood test/chest xray) so I'm assuming his immune system is fine?

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My 2 year old was diagnosed with pneumonia two more times this past winter
Quote:
Two more times this past winter? As in, they have had pneumonia multiple times in their life and two times in one winter?
He was "diagnosed" 3 times last winter, and twice this past winter by walk in docs - prescribed abx each time with no tests. The first time, we were sent to the ER where they said (after just listening to his chest) that he did NOT have pneumonia, said no abx, sent us home. The other times, we took him home, no abx, and he was better by the next day. I am not convinced he ever actually HAD pneumonia as the ER doc said he didn't and we never gave abx and he always recovered within 24 hours of these "diagnoses" by walk-in docs. Maybe he did and we are lucky, but now I understand why they don't take the "wait and see" approach...I'll probably be more careful in the future. I just thought they were overreacting. Again, I only took him to the doc to get a note, not because I thought he was very sick - seemed like every time he presented with a cough, they said he had pneumonia...

Quote:
My chiropractor says that MDs are not generally used to breast-fed babies who are not vaccinated and who generally have strong immune systems, so they tend to over-prescribe abx.

I can not see a child with a strong immune system getting pneumonia this often.
Again, I'm not convinced he actually had pneumonia, even though this was their "diagnosis" and prescription, they never did chest xrays or blood tests, just listened to his chest. He has had 5 chest colds in the last 2 years. Being in daycare from 9months+ he is much healthier than any of the kids at his daycare.
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