Probiotic timing for baby on antibiotics - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 8 Old 02-21-2004, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi everyone,
I'm looking for some adivce on the timing of giving acidophilus to my 10 month old dd. I have been giving her Jarrow BabyDophilus since she was about 8 weeks old, soon after they put her on low dose-daily antibiotics for a kidney condition--to prevent kidney infection and UTIs. (Don't get me started on how much this sucks... there isn't really much choice in the matter on this one.)

She started on amoxicillin, but at 4 months old switched her to a more UTI specific antibiotic called furadantin. The furdantin doesn't appear to be as hard on her GI as amox was... and besides that I do have her on the probiotic daily... so she hasn't had any of the nasty side effects of antibiotics like yeast or stomach/GI upset thank heavens.

My question is about the timing of when I should be giving it to her. I give her the furadantin once a day in the morning with food. I am wondering if anyone knows what the absorption time is for antibiotics in general (or furadantin in particular if anyone here is in the medical field)... and what is the optimum time for giving her the BabyDophilus. I have been doing it about 12 hours later... so basically a couple hour before bedtime. My rationale is that this gives the antibiotics a chance to do their thing, and then gives the probiotics about 12 hours in there before the next round of ABs go in there and kill them off.

But I also wonder if the acidophilus is actually making her gassy right before bedtime. (I know I sometimes get gassy after taking acidophilus capsules but don't exactly understand why.)

Of course, it's entirely possible the ABs are what make her gassy, or just the fact that she's a gassy baby. Who knows? It's not a major problem... mostly I just want to make sure that I'm giving her the maximum amount of time with probiotics in her GI before the ABs come around and kill them off again.

Could I give her the probiotics earlier in the day, do you think?

Thanks in advance. I know there are so many experts on here... I look forward to the wonderful advice.

And just thought I'd share a vent about this. Her pediatrician and urologist both think I'm overzealous to give the probiotics to her... they insist that the dosage is small and that in that low of a dosage it wouldn't be changing the flora of the GI. And when I mentioned that I read studies now linking antibiotics in infants to asthma, they shoo shoo me out of the office, saying that is unproven. good thing I'm a smart mommy and don't listen to them.

Thanks in advance,

Kat
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#2 of 8 Old 02-21-2004, 02:04 AM
 
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Her pediatrician and urologist both think I'm overzealous to give the probiotics to her... they insist that the dosage is small and that in that low of a dosage it wouldn't be changing the flora of the GI. And when I mentioned that I read studies now linking antibiotics in infants to asthma, they shoo shoo me out of the office, saying that is unproven. good thing I'm a smart mommy and don't listen to them.
yep. they dont know what they're talking about. you are a smart mama. i think the spacing that you're doing right now is good. you can give her kefir also, really really good for her. dont know about the gassyness though?! im sure goodpapa could answer you better than i have, goodpapa?!?!?!

Erin, 33, salty southern mama, sitting by the sea with my DH35, DD10, DS4, &DD2!
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#3 of 8 Old 02-21-2004, 11:32 AM
 
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"And just thought I'd share a vent about this. Her pediatrician and urologist both think I'm overzealous to give the probiotics to her... they insist that the dosage is small and that in that low of a dosage it wouldn't be changing the flora of the GI. And when I mentioned that I read studies now linking antibiotics in infants to asthma, they shoo shoo me out of the office, saying that is unproven. good thing I'm a smart mommy and don't listen to them. "

But, can you be more detailed about the kidney infection and UTI's?

Why does a child a little more than 8 weeks old have kidney problems?

Are you by any chance vaxing?

Has she been on antibiotics from 8 weeks to 10 months??!?


IMO, with constant antibiotics there's really no way that I can think of for the probiotic supplements to do very much.


I just can't understand what these peds are thinking.


Did the Babyjarrow or the antibiotics come first?



This is distressing,


Ray
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#4 of 8 Old 02-21-2004, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Erin,
Thanks for the kefir suggestion.I'll look into it. She's still almost exclusively breastfed, but she is starting to show lots of signs of wanting to eat solids.

Goodpapa,
Distressing? Please don't get me started on how distressing this is. She has a kidney abnormality called kidney reflux that was detected at 6 weeks old after a 4 day stint in the local Children's Hospital due to a high fever. They thought she had meningitis and hooked her up to IVs and heart monitors and the like and kept us in the hospital for 4 days while they ruled out all the other bad things. With kidney reflux (she has it both kidneys) the flap that controls urine from the bladder to the kidneys doesn't function properly, allowing urine to go from the bladder up back into to the sterile kidneys... causing infection. The standard course of treatment is low dose antibiotics until they outgrow it (most outgrow by 4-5 years old) or you can do surgery to fix it after they're 1 yr old. Without the antibiotics, she could very quickly get a kidney infection which causes permanent scarring of the kidneys and kidney failure, or worse, a kidney infection in a little one could quickly advance to sepsis (which is essentially what happened when she was 6 weeks old) which is quite serious and requires even stronger antibiotics to kill. I don't ever want to see my little baby hooked up to IVs and beeping machines and looking pale and listless because of a congenital defect she was born with. Believe me... it's distressing.

But what's more distressing to me is that you think the probiotics won't do anything. Are you SERIOUS? I was holding out hope that the acidophilus would at least counterract the yeast problems that so many children with kidney reflux have as a result of the ongoing antibiotic use. Not to mention that the probiotics should help keep her GI stay as healthy as can be (healthier than without probiotics) and prevent any future UTIs that might breakthrough even on antibiotics because of all the drug-resistant things out there.

I admit, I only lurk here (usually post on the breastfeeding/cosleeping boards) so I don't know your background. Why do you think the probiotics won't work?

To answer your other question, the kidney infection came first, then the BabyDophilus. I started it because the first antibiotic she took was amoxiccilin which gave her horrible diarrhea. After 2 weeks of that I put her on BabyDophilus...and it cleared it right up. if I have another baby I'll definitely have them on probiotics from birth... but I just didn't know. I was trying to keep her body as pure as possible. Thank heavens I learned quickly... since my doc's didn't offer it up as an option.

I have also exclusively breastfed her... even at almost 11 months old she rarely even its solids and when she does its organic. I'm hoping to continue with the breastfeeding as long as possible (hope she'll go till 2 years) to continue to boost her immune system.

Is there anything else I can do to keep her healthy and boost her health in addition to the probiotics? And please don't tell me to take her off antibiotics... it's not an option.

Thanks,
kat
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#5 of 8 Old 02-22-2004, 06:34 AM
 
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I was just reading some info tonight that said probiotics should not be given within 2 hours of antibiotics. I believe I read that on a probiotic label....so with that info, you could give it much earlier in the day.
The other thing I would do for her is to give her sodium ascorbate. This is a buffered form of Vitamin C and the safest form to give over a long term basis (unlike ascorbate acid, which is what most C supplements are). You can mix it in bm or water and give it to her. This will help keep her immune system primed. Sodium Ascorbate is an excellent infection fighter too. A pinch is roughly 250 mg. You could start with a 1/2 a pinch and gradually increase the dose. If she gets the runs, the dose is too high, just let up till her poop firms up. But otherwise she can't OD on it cuz it will just pass thru in her pee.
Blessings for her healing.
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#6 of 8 Old 02-22-2004, 05:36 PM
 
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...for you daughter's condition. I didn't mean to stress you out further.

I couldn't tell from your original post that the condition had to do with a physical, congenital abnormality.

I was operating on a hunch that proved wrong that I think affects many newborns, though it would be impossible to track down and identify given the impossiblity of doing a study.

I have noticed what could be an epidemic of kidney malfunction (not the type you describe) in infants and children just from my reading of recent literature.

I am convinced that when infants are given so many vaxes in the first months of life-- especially the hep B on the VERY FIRST DAY, their developing kidneys cannot always handle the toxins in these injections. Thus kidney damage.

I assumed also that this UTI was due to early-on antibiotics that the peds just didn't want to stop giving. My experience with the bacterial vaginosis that was causing my wife's miscarriages was my trigger. The Medical System can't cure them, so they just keep pumping the antibiotics.

I cured them by giving my wife a simple yogurt douche.


Do you give her the probiotics when she is nursing?

Breastmilk is the best food for them. Since stopping the antibiotics (and yes this was my original intention-- thus my "negativity") is not an option, of course you should continue the probiotics.

Theoretically, and this is something I've never seen covered in any research, if constant antibiotics results in super-bad bacterium, then if there is a steady stream of probiotics, it seems reasonable that they would undergo the same evolutionary process. It's just a hunch.

Since, really, with your daughter there is a straight, accessible path from her vagina to the kidney's you might think of culturing the jarrow and using it as a douche as I did for my wife.

If little girls are anything like my 2-year old son, they can't leave their genitals alone, and of course in the female case this does promote the wrong bacteria getting access to the kidneys via the urethra.

If you get a chance read "The Power of Probiotics" thread here. These beneficial bacteria protect ALL of our mucosal systems---they also are absolutely necessary for the functioning of the immune system-- 70% of which is in the GI tract.

here's a starter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

You mentioned:

"I have also exclusively breastfed her... even at almost 11 months old she rarely even its solids and when she does its organic. I'm hoping to continue with the breastfeeding as long as possible (hope she'll go till 2 years) to continue to boost her immune system."

Since she so exclusively is reliant upon you for nutrition, you should also boost your intestinal flora. Sort of way to supercharge your breastmilk with nutrients and do a little pre-detox of anything that shouldn't be going through to her. For example, mercury can be transformed in YOUR gut (even organic vegetable can have excessive mercury from heavily laden rain-- here in NC the rain test at three times the EPA level) to an inorganic form that is excreted by you and not passed on to your daughter. This is just one example. Though I have not seen the studies yet I have a hunch that other envrionmental toxins are kept from being absorbed by the good flora acting as gatekeepers in the digestive process.

This would ease the burden on her flora.

Does she eat bananas or any fruit? Bananas have inulin-- a fiber which promotes probiotic health.

Digestive enzymes might be something to enhance in her system as well-- and would allow for a very healthy drink. I make a smoothie of organic strawberries, bananas, sometimes kiwis, mangos and papayas (hard to get as organic but they don't have heavy pesticide load based on what I've read).

http://www.isismedica.com/contaminated%20vegetables.htm

Papayas especially have enzymes ,and you could add pineapple (enzymes as well) if you want.

My son has had this mixed with yogurt from about six months. Not alot but regularly.


Again, I misjudged, I apologize for any additional stress.


Good luck and God Bless,



Ray
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#7 of 8 Old 02-23-2004, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ray thanks so much for your post. No hard feelings here. I hope my reply wasn't too snippy, either. I sometimes get annoyed when I feel like alternative communities (and I say this proudly not as a derogatory term) imply that I'm a freak because I have to give my dd antibiotics. Like I have a friggin choice in the matter. Well... I suppose theoretically I do... but that would make our lives quite risky.

I will read all your links and take to heart your suggestions about the fruit intake in me. I am already taking a probiotic but honestly don't take it every day. If I'm pregnant again I will take the acidophilus during pregnancy since that's how babies get the initial dose of flora is from passage through the vaginal wall. (A good reason why c-sect babies should get on baby probiotics.)

As far as banana's go... my dd HATES them. Can you believe that? What baby hates bananas? She won't eat them in any format. I am hoping this is just a temporary thing... and am eagerly awaiting the arrival of spring fruit. I know she will enjoy the bounty from the farmer's markets.

Interesting about your findings about kidney malfunction after the hep b shot... but sadly it's not related. We did end up vaxing, though delayed a bit... after we were in the hospital for 4 days ruling out some of the things they vax for (meningitis, pneumoccocal, etc) it sort of changed or personal feelings about vaxes for our child.

You mentioned that--as most kids do--babies seem to grab, touch, etc themselves. According to her doc, this is normal and shouldn't NORMALLY cause UTIs in healthy children/babies. In fact, the day she spiked the fever at 6 weeks old my dh bathed her and felt horribly that he somehow introduced the bacteria and caused the infection. In actuality, we were grateful she GOT the infection, as it led to a diagnosis. Many children with kidney reflux don't actually get clinically sick or febrile but have enough low grade infection to get kidney scarring and damage. Sometimes they find out later and one or both kidneys are failing... or have diminished function.

In a normal child without the reflux, from what I understand, their genitals and UT are designed in such a way that they can handle the occasional small introduction of bacteria without getting a UTI. So when children or babies get a UTI they almost always suspect kidney reflux. In a baby under 1 year I think they automatically move to diagnosis and under 5 they wait till a child gets a 2nd UTI, but something like 50-70% of kids who present with UTIs have it. Much higher in infants.

In the end, too... the bacteria that cultured out wasn't the usual cause of a UTI... it wasn't typical E Coli... it was some more rare enteroccoccus which they said they don't see very often. Who knows where she got that... probably from me in childbirth. I think I had antibiotics during pregnancy for a UTI myself (can't remember if I took them) and didn't think to stock up on probiotics myself before I gave birth... so she probably got the bad bacteria in her GI from me. But again... we're lucky she got an infection because she got diagnosed. It just still sucks to remember her hooked up to all that crap.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on about kidney reflux. Probably more than you ever wanted to know about kidney reflux. But also wanted to let you know that UTIs in children are usually suspicious.

By the way I am so very sorry for your wife's miscarriages... I suffered from a few myself due to an inherited condition I have, and it's a burden that's very hard to bear. Thank heavens you were able to treat for it.

~kat
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#8 of 8 Old 02-23-2004, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ray,
I also meant to ask, did you have an answer to my initial question about the timing of the probiotics?

You asked whether I give it to her when she's nursing... no. that would be too messy. But I mix it into a few drops of breast milk and either dropper it or give it to her on a spoon. I call it her "yogurt" and she gets very excited. I think it's a bit sweet tasting.

Another question I've always wondered about. At what point in my digestion process does the milk get made? I mean, is it after the stomach, after the colon, etc? Nobody I've asked at LLL seems to know and my doc's don't seem to care. They give me this puzzled look like, "What a strange question to ask." Just something I've always wondered myself how it works. Kind of a digression but you may know.

Thanks,
~kat
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