3 month old with ear infection, ruptured ear drum, WWYD? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 95 Old 12-29-2009, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My baby is 3 months old. She developed a bad cold Fri night w/fever of 101.7under arm. I didn't give her anything - no tylenol, etc because I like to let them resolve on it's own and I wanted the fever to help kill off the infection. By Sat aft it seemed that the fever had gone down significantly (prob down to 99 or so I didn't actually check w/ thermometer). By late Sun eve, she had fever over 101 again. She hasn't been nursing that well since Sun night bc I think she is stopped up. The nasal aspirator doesn't seem to work very well, but I just bought another one, maybe it will help. She is peeing, but not as much as usual, and my breasts hurt since she isn't eating as much. She has been crying most of the time she is awake which is very unlike her - she is usually very happy. I didn't want to give her tylenol but I did last night around 3am because she was just screaming and wouldn't nurse, couldn't sleep, and had an under arm temp of 102 - she'd latch on and then pull away.

So this morning she seems content and OK after I gave her the tylenol - she was even smiling. Then I noticed some discharge coming out of her ear. I cleaned the outer part of her ear. A couple hours later I noticed a little blood and green gunk coming out - I don't know if it was there earlier and didn't notice or not. She's asleep now, and last time I checked her temp it was 100 - it was about time for the tylenol's effect to wear out, so I don't know if it's coming down or if it's still under affect of the tylenol.


I'm trying to decide whether to take her to the dr or not. I'm at my in-laws, 10 hrs away from home - so I don't know the drs here. I'm wary of their practices. So in other words I don't totally trust their opinion. WWYD? Would you take her to the dr? If you would, would you fill the scrip for antibiotics they would most likely give you? I've tried to do some research on here - I know that I shouldn't put any garlic drops in the ear now that it is ruptured. Some people on here seem to think abx is the way to go in this case, some people say to just keep it dry and clean. I'm eating raw garlic and drinking emergen-c. anything else i should be doing?

So WWYD? Knoeing that she's not nursing well, it's hard to keep her head so that it will drain well since she's 3 mo old and likes to sleep in sling w/ head cocked to wrong side. Also if no dr can see us, the drs here are sying go to the ER - would you?
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#2 of 95 Old 12-29-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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I would go in for sure.
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#3 of 95 Old 12-29-2009, 06:33 PM
 
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Yes, definitely take her in. I certainly do not advocate throwing antibiotics at everything the way some do, but there are times when they're really useful. This is one of those times, in my opinion. I also suffered from ear infections as a child, and remember them well. They are very painful. They are also relieved almost immediately with antibiotics.
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#4 of 95 Old 12-29-2009, 07:19 PM
 
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Yes, definitely take her in. I certainly do not advocate throwing antibiotics at everything the way some do, but there are times when they're really useful. This is one of those times, in my opinion. I also suffered from ear infections as a child, and remember them well. They are very painful. They are also relieved almost immediately with antibiotics.
I'm definitely not in this camp, however I say do what you are comfortable with. How is she now?
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#5 of 95 Old 12-29-2009, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm definitely not in this camp, however I say do what you are comfortable with. How is she now?
She's sleeping and seems to be OK when sleeping, and her fever maybe has gone down, but there is more pus and green gunk than ever coming out of her ear. I'm afraid if it might develop into mastoiditis since it's not always draining properly (because she keeps tilting her head the wrong way).
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#6 of 95 Old 12-29-2009, 07:28 PM
 
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Green stuff is indicative of infection, and it's never good to have an infection that close to the brain. You are right to be concerned about mastoiditis. Go to the doctor right away.

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#7 of 95 Old 12-29-2009, 07:37 PM
 
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but she already knew there was an infection. I'm not saying don't get it checked out, I'm just saying be clear on which is the cart and which is the horse here.
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#8 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 12:25 AM
 
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This is a copy of a recent post of mine regarding ear infections and immune system.

Mild Fever in 5.5 month old

When Is a Antibiotic needed For Sinus?

Help with 10mo old ear infection please!

Fever- no medication approach

How can I get rid of ear infection w/o antibiotics?


I'd do homeopathics and stop ALL dairy and add whole food probiotics, or at least take and give baby some bifidum probiotics. If baby is lethargic or not peeing, I'd get to the Urgent Care. I'd avoid the ER, personally. Dehydration is the biggest concern. So, I'd nurse, Nurse, NURSE!

A ruptured ear drum can heal itself. So can an ear infection. The concern is *why* is baby's immune system compromised. That is why I'd avoid the hospital germs and antibiotics and focus on probiotics for immune strengthening.



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#9 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 12:34 AM
 
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I would go to the Dr. for that one.

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#10 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 02:05 AM
 
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I would go. My son did get mastoiditis. She's young, really young and her body would have kicked this by now if it could have. The wait and see on antibiotics for ear infections is 48 to 72 hours.

The concern in spreading/worsening infection is also when a fever kicks back up after going down and if I'm reading right that happened to your daughter. Knowing what I know now (via my son's mastoiditis) I would have advised you to take her in at that point.

I'd take her now. I wouldn't be surprised if there is infection in that other ear given the continuing fever.


On the mastoiditis since that is an emergency and it might be late where you are--the signs are spongy/soft or swollen or painful right behind the ear in the mastoid bone area. It can happen really fast. Ours did.

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#11 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 02:34 AM
 
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I would also throw out that like Pat, I wouldn't just stand back and watch. I'd be using ferrum phos and silica cell salts to encourage drainage and healing. I certainly don't think that you should ignore this, I just have a different approach.

Also when you give a suppressant it's not uncommon for a fever that has gone down (as a result) to come back up.

Just another perspective!
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#12 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 02:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Panserbjørne View Post
I would also throw out that like Pat, I wouldn't just stand back and watch. I'd be using ferrum phos and silica cell salts to encourage drainage and healing. I certainly don't think that you should ignore this, I just have a different approach.

Also when you give a suppressant it's not uncommon for a fever that has gone down (as a result) to come back up.

Just another perspective!
True. But what I was talking about was this part:
Quote:
She developed a bad cold Fri night w/fever of 101.7under arm. I didn't give her anything - no tylenol, etc because I like to let them resolve on it's own and I wanted the fever to help kill off the infection. By Sat aft it seemed that the fever had gone down significantly (prob down to 99 or so I didn't actually check w/ thermometer). By late Sun eve, she had fever over 101 again.
That wasn't with suppressant and that is a potential sign that thing have spread/gotten worse (she likely had the ear infection with that 101.7 fever on Friday night).
My son spiked a fever and infection on a Sunday. Like always we planned to wait stuff out and I didn't do any fever reducers. I did do chiro, cranial massage, homeopathy, etc. as we always did. Monday he was getting better/lower fever. Tuesday he was great. Tuesday afternoon evening his fever spiked back up. Wed. morning he woke up with mastoiditis very obvious. I imagine/am certain it had spread by that Tuesday point but we didn't know it at the time. I wouldn't wish what happened to my son on anyone.
My other concern in terms of waiting it out (which I wouldn't do anyway at this point) is that this is a three month old and this is already a complicated infection her body didn't fight off.

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#13 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 03:00 AM
 
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Okay, my second time over I didn't see that part. Darn multi-tasking.

I am not at all a wait it out kind of person. I wouldn't consider waiting it out in this case and when the fever spiked again I do go for cell salts, not just homeopathy. This actually delivers the nutrients the body needs to correct the imbalance. They aren't energetic in nature.

I'm certainly not picking apart what you did. I'm just clarifying my protocol, as it were. Someone may need actual building blocks once things have progressed this far so they have the materials they need to access to handle infection. In any suppurative process I would use them to prevent something like you described. I'm so sorry that both of you had to deal with something like this.
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#14 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 03:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Degas View Post
She's sleeping and seems to be OK when sleeping, and her fever maybe has gone down, but there is more pus and green gunk than ever coming out of her ear. I'm afraid if it might develop into mastoiditis since it's not always draining properly (because she keeps tilting her head the wrong way).
I would certainly watch this. I would be concerned if the fever does go back up as sbgrace stated. However if I'm understanding this right (and no I didn't learn and yes I'm still multi-tasking) the fever spike was before the rupture. I would think that's why you saw the spike. If it goes up again or stays up I'd certainly take action.
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#15 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 06:57 PM
 
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I would take her to the doc, and since the eardrum is ruptured, ask if they'll prescribe abx drops for the ear rather than an oral abx. If the other ear is infected, too, then oral might be called for, of course.

To me, the baby's comfort, and not so much the degrees of the fever, is what determines whether or not I would give tylenol/motrin. If they can't eat or sleep, relieving symptoms so they can rest and heal is reasonable, imo. It's what I'd do for myself in the same situation, you know?

As for abx...if it was just a cold, I would refuse them--I actually had to argue with a doctor once about this, and wound up tossing the scrip she insisted on writing for me after I told her she was an idiot and needed to read up on evolutionary biology and its relevance to medicine following my negative strep test which I had to insist she do. I don't use them lightly. But ear infections suck and can result in complications, and the green goop indicates bacteria, which are what abx are for. As a PP said, they do have their place.

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#16 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 07:09 PM
 
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Given the green goop discharge I would consider antibiotics as this may indicate a bacterial infection. With out that I would probably not as 80-90% of ear infections are viral in nature and heal on their own.

In the situation you describe I would first call our ND...If I did not have access to him, I would take ds to an MD.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#17 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 07:11 PM
 
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I would go to the ER if a doctor can't see you. Ear infections scare me: there's too much risk for permanent hearing loss IMO.

Trying to live a simple life in a messy house in a complicated world with : DH, DD (b. 07/07), DS (b. 02/09), and DD (b. 10/10)
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#18 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 07:18 PM
 
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I would go to the ER if a doctor can't see you. Ear infections scare me: there's too much risk for permanent hearing loss IMO.
The vast majority of ear infections are not serious. The incidence for mastoiditis from acute otitis media is reported as 0.004%. Hearing loss is a possible (not probable) outcome of mastoiditis. The risk for hearing loss from ear infections is quite tiny actually. This is not to say I don't think OP should have a medical professional look at her child.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#19 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 07:45 PM
 
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The vast majority of ear infections are not serious. The incidence for mastoiditis from acute otitis media is reported as 0.004%. Hearing loss is a possible (not probable) outcome of mastoiditis. The risk for hearing loss from ear infections is quite tiny actually. This is not to say I don't think OP should have a medical professional look at her child.
I know. But the vast majority of ear infections also don't include oozing green liquid coming out of a 3 month old's ears.

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#20 of 95 Old 12-30-2009, 10:47 PM
 
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How is she OP?
It's so hard when stuff like this happens.

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#21 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well we went to doc she's got a double ear infection, one with the ruptured eardrum. We were given abx drops for ear and oral. Should I give them to her? Her fever is back up to 101.8 when tylenol wore off. I have been giving her tylenol the last two days not because of the fever but because of her ear pain. She is screaming in pain and won't nurse when I don't give to her. I didn't know anything else to give her and I'm not in an area where many holistic things are available. Should I give abx to her? Here is the backstory:

Well, we called all drs around here and none would see her bc we are visiting my in laws and don't have a doc here. We used to live a couple hours away from here, but we've 600 miles away a five months ago. So we decided to see if my other daughter's old dr would see our 3 mon old. Her old doc was awesome, totally holistic, *encouraged* no vaxing or sears schedule vaxing! Unfortunately for us (but good for the med world), he left the practice to go teach pediatric med students. Anyway, the practice said they would see our 3 mo old - they saw her yest morn. I figured that the practice was still holistic. the doc she saw didn't bat an eye when I said she hadn't been vaxd. She also said to go ahead and do garlic drops in ear that isn't ruptured, so she's OK w/ holistic approaches. So she said she had a ear infection in both ears, with ruptured eardrum in one. I'm figuring the ear infection started when the temp went back up on Sun. I wish I had listened to my intuition, paid attention, and started giving her garlic ear drops then. I will pay attention next time.

So I'm thinking that this dr is pretty good and doesn't readily rx abx all the time. She even said that if she wasn't a little baby, they don't rx abx, bc the infection clears up on it's own. She said that the infection was probably clearing up on it's own already, since her fever was down by itself. Yesterday her fever went down to 100 after tylenol had wore off. But now it's back up again - 101.8, so infection might be spreading again. I wish I had asked if I could do just the abx ear drops and not oral - I think I'll call the office and ask. But what do you think? Would you give abx? Would you just do abx ear drops, or both? I saw her yest, but haven't given yet since babe has been asleep.
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#22 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 12:50 PM
 
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I know. But the vast majority of ear infections also don't include oozing green liquid coming out of a 3 month old's ears.
while this is true...oozing green liquid doesn't = mastoiditis and hearing loss. All I was trying to point out is that letting fear of a worst case scenario get the better of you may not be productive as the likelihood of this outcome is very slim. I repeat I did NOT suggest that the OP ignore the problem and not have her child evaluated. I was merely suggesting she not jump to a worst case scenario

To OP glad you have a diagnosis. I would be inclined to def do the ABX ear drops. I also know that there are rx ear drops that are specifically for ear pain (DS was prescribed them when he had a double ear infection but I never used them as I used the garlic/meullin drops and they worked just fine for the pain). If I was in your shoes I would hold off on the oral abx. I also would not be using tylenol. I believe tylenol to do more harm than good and the effects on a 3 months old liver...no way. I have used homeopathics for pain relief and fever reduction for DS with great success. If I did not have access to homeopathic remedies and felt I had to use something for pain relief I would use infant motrin. With all that being said you have to do what you feel is right for your baby given where you are and the tools you have at your disposal. I hope she feels better soon. It is so heart wrenching when they are sick and in pain and all you want to do is absorb it for them...wishing it was you instead of them.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#23 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 12:56 PM
 
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well, you have to do SOMETHING at this point. If abx is what you have then I'd say that's not a bad idea. It's hard to answer threads like this for me because I have a very different paradigm and support system. I don't take risks with my kids health, but I have other ways to deal with it. I am very comfortable in what we do so I wouldn't do abx-but only because I have other things that would accomplish what they would. However if you don't have an alternate route, this is probably the right thing to do.

Hugs to both of you and best wishes for a pain and infection free new year!
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#24 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What homeopathic remedies could I use for the ear pain? I tried doing a warm compress in the form of warmed up rice in a sock - but it didn't help - I stuck it on my own ear to make sure it wasn't too hot. I don't know any other remedies and have been so busy attending to her that I hadn't had time to look it up. I think I'll ask the dr that too. There is a small health food store here, but they only have limited things. So ibuprofren is better then acetomeniphen for a baby's liver? I had no idea! I always thought tylenol was the better of the two to give a baby. I guess I need to do my research! Thanks.
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#25 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 01:24 PM
 
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Motrin is DEFINITELY better. It works better since it's an anti-inflammatory, doesn't cause as many fever spikes at Tylenol and doesn't deplete glutathione the way Tylenol does. As for homeopathics, what about belladonna? Good for both fever and pain/inflammation. Better yet, have a look at this link and see which remedy best fits her picture: http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/2221008.html

Hope she feels better soon.

If it were me, I'd definitely do the abx drops. Not sure about the oral abx - might give the homeopathics a day or two first.

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#26 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If I can find these at the health food store, ferrum phos and silica cell salts, how would I give them to a 3 mo old? Or do I take them and she gets them through breastmilk. I got Kefir so I would have probiotics, but thats dairy, so should I not drink it? Do you get whole food probiotics that aren't dairy in pills or...?
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#27 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 01:39 PM
 
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Tylenol is bad bad bad.....at least to use when one has an active infection. If it is for a headache or strictly pain relief, it's effects would be less harmful (but not harmless!)

Shalabi EA. Acetaminophen inhibits the human polymorphonuclear leukocyte function in vitro. Immunopharmacology 1992;24:37-46.

This article explains why it's bad. Basically in a nutshell when you take tylenol it opens the door and says to infections, meningitis, whatever... Come on in do your worst..the tylenol will now prevents the body's natural protection system from working the way it should.

this article http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0 shows that the HIGHER the temperature you have the more tylenol inhibits neutrophils and prevents phagocytes from engulfing and dealing with the pathogen.

when you have some time google tylenol and gluthathione...tylenol depletes glutathione which is an essential antioxident that protects the body from free radicals...No anti-inflammatory (including mortin) is great touse when one has an active infection as they all get in the way of the body doing what it needs to do, and motrin also can cause tummy upset, but I think (if it's tolerated) it is the lesser of 2 evils.

as for homeopathics try ferrum phos to reduce the fever and perhaps belladonna for the ear pain. you can give homeopathic remedies to a 6 month old no problem. I would do 2 pellets (30c) every 4 hours for 3 doses...if after 3 doses you do not see an improvement, it is the wrong remedy and you need to try a different one. I wouldn't do kefir as it is dairy,. I would get a non-dairy powdered probiotic with bifidus infantum (you can get these at a healthfood store) and mix it with BM and give it directly to your DD.

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#28 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 02:07 PM
 
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I would personally go for cell salts if you aren't used to using homeopathy. I don't like using anything suppressive and I do feel like homeopathy can be. Cell salts are not. I would give them directly to the babe, if you want to you can put them in breastmillk. They dissolve quickly. I generally, in acute situations do this 4-6 times a day.

That said, since it's an area you are unfamiliar with and don't know what you are looking for I'd do it along with the abx. You can certainly choose not to, but I wouldn't necessarily advise that.
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#29 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 02:12 PM
 
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I would do 2 pellets (30c) every 4 hours for 3 doses...if after 3 doses you do not see an improvement, it is the wrong remedy and you need to try a different one.
While a lot of people use it this way, I just don't think, if it's all you are doing, that it's okay to prolong discomfort. 4 hours is too long to go to realize you have the wrong remedy and are back to the drawing board. I dose every half hour in the beginning of an acute. If after two doses there isn't relief, time to reasses. A half hour is STILL a long time, but more reasonable IMO.

The last ear infection I dealt with two doses over the course of a half hour didn't help. After reassessing it was the correct choice so I went up in potency. The child then stopped crying completely and was fine. They required another dose 6 or so hours later...but it worked. Had I kept giving it every half hour I could have stayed at the same potency, but relief would have taken longer to achieve. All I'm saying is it can be tricky and it' snot something I'd turn to in the thick of things if I wasn't familiar with it. Ya know?
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#30 of 95 Old 12-31-2009, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well she's 3 mo old, not 6 mo. So is belladonna and cell salts OK for 3 mo old? Will the cell salts help w/pain? What about Mercurius solubilis? On the truestarhealth link it said Mercurius solubilis was good for advanced infections. Is it good for pain relief?
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