Low Thyroid Symptoms but "Normal" Blood Tests - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 12:45 PM
 
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Everything I've read says mucin is a symptom, not a cause, but maybe I missed something.

DS gets enough vite A for a normal kid, but maybe not enough for him. I just increased, we'll see what that does. (I've always stayed easy on A because it can deplete K).

Dr. K says thyroid stuff is secondary to adrenals, and it wouldn't suprise me if some babies are hypothyroid because their mamas rode on their adrenals the last few months of pg. But once that isn't happening any more, perhaps their adrenals can recover and remove the source of the hypoT?
I'm curious to see what more A does for him! Definitely report back.

The tennantinstitue link does some interesting finger pointing at mucin, but I'm not sure how much I trust it.

So dd... Very absolutely has the hypo look. Mucin arms, super chubby, looked exactly like the 'cretinous' baby in Starr's book, only not so extreme. Has the flat bridge of the nose (is that normal for kids?) and narrow eyes, sometimes more than others. Has the cheeks, and the sagging chin/neck. One of her baby pictures is so totally hypo looking. She was born 10#, 10 days 'late' and grew FAST. Short arms and legs, low estrogen, I think. Craved seaweed, fish, roe, etc once she started solids. Cold butt. Has always, always, always been a heater and prefers sleeping with no covers. One temp data point (while high on b12) is 98.2.

Me: no mucin (I don't think) pre-dd, didn't gain weight the whole 3rd trimester with her, never had that burst of energy 2nd tri, but wasn't super tired the whole pg either. Definitely low on iodine, likely low on selenium. Mucin showed up slowly postpartum, as did food reactions. Definite adrenal issues, though they never crashed to the point of fatigue or exercise intolerance. Not sure where my adrenals are now. Consistently low temps.

Any hypotheses? Interesting tests to run?

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#122 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wait, where is 90% of people having mucin arms coming from? I don't recall that at all.
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#123 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think to detemine adrenal issues, WhoMe, there is the Dr. Rind metabolic temp graph and/or saliva testing.

re: heater with a cold butt
I've been like this and wondered if that is adrenals kicking in. There are times when I'm so hot I throw off the covers yet my back and butt are cold. It seems like I can be BOTH heat and cold sensitive. Just complete temp dysregulation!

re: flat nose
That's a hard one to say because as much as I see the plain differences in that pic of the girl who changed with thyroid supp, it seems like a typical baby face does have a flattened bridge.

I have pics of DS where he is completely round! He grew super fast as well. Always 90% percentile for both height/weight.
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#124 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 12:57 PM
 
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I like your theories (adrenal and blood sugar and pancreatic) yet still wonder how much of that has root in thyroid malfunction as has been shown by the correlation in these books. (Still mad I can't quote from Starr's outline of Philpott's Victory over Diabetes on google books b/c that discussion of how thyroid impacts pancreas and blood sugar was so interesting.)

It's so hard to determine. I think a lot is just simply not known we have to go by our informed mama instinct. At least I feel like there is a lot that I don't know. I'm looking forward to the next appt with the dr. that knows about adrenal issues in children. I have a lot to learn on that front.

Thanks for that!

Oy, what a question! My inner thigh skin is "rolly" and loose even though there is fat there, and it looks like the "normal arm skin" when pinched.

I don't know for sure but it seems to be repeated over and over again by all these thyroid hormone docs that temps are only one bit of the puzzle. Determination should be made with due weight given to all these:

- temps
- clinical examination and symptoms
- bloodwork
- family history



Well that's definitely us, DS was clearly an adrenally depleted baby from day one. Wasn't it Dr. K who said these babes will never recover.

I need to learn more on adrenals. The thyroid docs say its the other way around and that the adrenals can prop up the thyroid and release more of its hormones to increase metabolism, but only for so long.

I really appreciate you all going on this journey and talking things out with me! It's been hard on my own, and I learn so much from all of you. So glad I finally sucked you into the discussion.
I've got mucin thighs too then.

I was absolutely an adrenally depleted baby. Early high school was my zen, likely high cortisol period when nothing could stress me out. I have hormones in my future, don't I?

I wonder if I could get dd on board for a thyroid panel for her? It could be so telling.

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#125 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 01:03 PM
 
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I think to detemine adrenal issues, WhoMe, there is the Dr. Rind metabolic temp graph and/or saliva testing.

re: heater with a cold butt
I've been like this and wondered if that is adrenals kicking in. There are times when I'm so hot I throw off the covers yet my back and butt are cold. It seems like I can be BOTH heat and cold sensitive. Just complete temp dysregulation!

re: flat nose
That's a hard one to say because as much as I see the plain differences in that pic of the girl who changed with thyroid supp, it seems like a typical baby face does have a flattened bridge.

I have pics of DS where he is completely round! He grew super fast as well. Always 90% percentile for both height/weight.
Soon, I'm going to put together a collection of pics of dd, comparing her to the ones in the book. Cause seriously, she's like the poster child. Haven't measured her lately (she's scared of the doctors office), but she was always 95th for height, and double off the charts for height. Like there's the space between 50th and 95th on the charts? She was that high ABOVE the top line.

Now that I have a thermometer, I'm going to take a million temps for me and see what they say. I'm tempted to do another saliva test, but I don't want to pay for it, so we'll see what I can figure out without it.

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#126 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 04:12 PM
 
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We've had success in some supps and some removing food chemicals so that DS sleeps like a rock, learns well and is a exceptionally lovely child 95% of the time but as far as other issues (growth, respiratory, making more headway on intolerances) we are failing miserably.

When you talk about growth issues, what do you mean?

Oy, what a question! My inner thigh skin is "rolly" and loose even though there is fat there, and it looks like the "normal arm skin" when pinched.

My inner thigh is very loose & pinchable. The skin on the back of my arm is only pinchable in about a 3 inch blob. Is that what you mean?



Also giving large amounts of D depletes vit. A. And fevers.

D depletes fevers? What does that mean? What do you use for a vitamin A supplement since I'm now taking huge doses of Vit D?




Well that's definitely us, DS was clearly an adrenally depleted baby from day one. Wasn't it Dr. K who said these babes will never recover.
What does an adrenally depleted baby look like?

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#127 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 04:25 PM
 
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Your thigh is loose and pinchable, too? There's no place that I can get less than an inch, and most places it's closer to two... I don't think that's anything new on my thighs, either. I don't remember ever having loose skin, really. Weird.

About to hand off my copies of Starr and Dr K to my doc for reading up before my appt next week.

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#128 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 05:07 PM
 
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I have pinchable on my thighs, belly, anywhere that has loose skin (underarms). It's only "mucin like" on top of muscles where skin is tight (biceps, thighs).

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#129 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 05:37 PM
 
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We need to get together & have a mucin pinching party. So we're all on the same page.

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#130 of 227 Old 09-24-2010, 10:17 PM
 
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We need to get together & have a mucin pinching party. So we're all on the same page.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#131 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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When you talk about growth issues, what do you mean?
I'll repeat it here for other mamas even though I emailed you. Hey, I was making cake and pizza for the party we went to tonight!

DS only grew 1 1/4" last year. His growth curve is slowing but I'm not sure of %. We are going in for a height check in Oct/Nov. His father is 6'3" and my brother and father are 6'1". He had a slow down when he was 3 and then I took a bunch of foods out and adding WAPF nutrition, he started growing better. Now slowing again. His teeth are talking a super long time coming in.

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My inner thigh is very loose & pinchable. The skin on the back of my arm is only pinchable in about a 3 inch blob. Is that what you mean?
Yes totally.


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D depletes fevers? What does that mean? What do you use for a vitamin A supplement since I'm now taking huge doses of Vit D?
No, sorry I wasn't clear... fevers deplete vitamin A. And large amounts of D require more A according to WAPF. (For the record the dude at The Vitamin D Council thinks retinol is the devil and we shouldn't be taking any of it).

I do liver, egg yolks and CLO for my A. Carlson's also makes a true retinol A.

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What does an adrenally depleted baby look like?
I think an adrenally depleted babe is restless, cannot calm easily or sleep well, cranky, colicky, allergies.
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#132 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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WhoMe:

ZRT does bloodspot testing for thyroid if your DD would handle that better:

http://www.zrtlab.com/test-kits/bloo...ting-kits.html

Wait... high cortisol means you are zen?
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#133 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 01:50 AM
 
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We need to get together & have a mucin pinching party. So we're all on the same page.
I think I love you. And yeah, we totally do. Shall we all take pictures and post to fb?
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I do liver, egg yolks and CLO for my A. Carlson's also makes a true retinol A.



I think an adrenally depleted babe is restless, cannot calm easily or sleep well, cranky, colicky, allergies.
I need to hook myself up with that A.

As a babe, I *never* napped, my mom wouldn't call me colicky, though, cause I didn't fit like 2 of the 10 symptoms of the list She felt better than ever before in her life 2nd tri; I refused solids till I finally 'gave in' at 8mo. Never seemed happy, always frustrated, except for the day after learning a new skill. Was tall but thin (75%/25%).
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WhoMe:

ZRT does bloodspot testing for thyroid if your DD would handle that better:

http://www.zrtlab.com/test-kits/bloo...ting-kits.html

Wait... high cortisol means you are zen?
I'll wait and see what my results say. That's probably the only way to even have a chance with her, though. Thanks!

And yeah, high high cortisol, like resistance stage/cushing's is super calm, nothing can stress me zen. Then it crashes and EVERYTHING becomes irritating. I remember doing a stress test freshman year, and I scored rock bottom. One (type A) friend was shocked so I really took a hard second look, and yeah, none of that stuff phased me in the least. Sooooooooooooo not true anymore

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#134 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 09:29 AM
 
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WhoMe:

ZRT does bloodspot testing for thyroid if your DD would handle that better:

http://www.zrtlab.com/test-kits/bloo...ting-kits.html

Wait... high cortisol means you are zen?
Do you think those are accurate? I'd love to had a bloodspot for Vitamin D. My DD doesn't do well with blood draws.

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#135 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 09:31 AM
 
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DS only grew 1 1/4" last year. His growth curve is slowing but I'm not sure of %. We are going in for a height check in Oct/Nov. His father is 6'3" and my brother and father are 6'1". He had a slow down when he was 3 and then I took a bunch of foods out and adding WAPF nutrition, he started growing better. Now slowing again. His teeth are talking a super long time coming in.

No, sorry I wasn't clear... fevers deplete vitamin A. And large amounts of D require more A according to WAPF. (For the record the dude at The Vitamin D Council thinks retinol is the devil and we shouldn't be taking any of it).

I do liver, egg yolks and CLO for my A. Carlson's also makes a true retinol A.

Link please.

I think an adrenally depleted babe is restless, cannot calm easily or sleep well, cranky, colicky, allergies.
This makes me sad because it describes DD. She was unsettled, allergies, took 3 years to sleep through the night, has sensory issues and I think she's having growth issues, if he declining height % is any indication.

This means that DS probably has issues too.

Do you think those bloodspot tests are accurate?

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#136 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 12:55 PM
 
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Do you think those are accurate? I'd love to had a bloodspot for Vitamin D. My DD doesn't do well with blood draws.
I do think they're accurate, I researched them when I did fingerspot IgG testing for DS. Yasko's genetics test is a fingerstick as well. The only issue is not to squeeze the finger too much, just let the blood flow naturally.

Note, however, that doing these tests is not necessarily easy - it takes quite a bit of time to get enough blood to fill up the paper dots (like 90 seconds maybe, with a totally cooperative child and a good fingerstick). During which you need to hold the finger and aim the blood (less than simple on a wiggling, protesting, unhappy child).

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#137 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Do you think those are accurate? I'd love to had a bloodspot for Vitamin D. My DD doesn't do well with blood draws.
The Vitamin D Council guy recs ZRT for testing D.

Here is vitamin A
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/13728?at=0

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/14656?at=0

they do also make a palmitate (synthetic) one so make sure you don't get that one.
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#138 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This makes me sad because it describes DD. She was unsettled, allergies, took 3 years to sleep through the night, has sensory issues and I think she's having growth issues, if he declining height % is any indication.

This means that DS probably has issues too.
Yup, I know exactly how you feel. None of this is fun is it.

I'm ready now for the big payoffs to this hard hard work. Any day now. Like right now. Here we are universe! Yooohooooo!

s Ok I'm a little goofy tonight.
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#139 of 227 Old 09-25-2010, 09:02 PM
 
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The Vitamin D Council guy recs ZRT for testing D.

Here is vitamin A
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/13728?at=0

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/14656?at=0

they do also make a palmitate (synthetic) one so make sure you don't get that one.
Just to clarify, the way to tell is: natural = retinyl while synthetic = retinol, correct?

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#140 of 227 Old 09-29-2010, 09:10 AM
 
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So having had thyroid symptoms for years, and my numbers finally agreeing with me, the doctor put me on meds. How do you get them to dose you based on symptoms vs. numbers? And how often do you cahnge dosages to get it right? The doctor never said I had to come back before next year's physical. Shouldn't they at least be checking numbers before then? I'd really like to have them play around with them until I have no symptoms but not sure if that's going to happen.

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#141 of 227 Old 09-29-2010, 11:20 AM
 
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So having had thyroid symptoms for years, and my numbers finally agreeing with me, the doctor put me on meds. How do you get them to dose you based on symptoms vs. numbers? And how often do you cahnge dosages to get it right? The doctor never said I had to come back before next year's physical. Shouldn't they at least be checking numbers before then? I'd really like to have them play around with them until I have no symptoms but not sure if that's going to happen.
luck + sheer tenacity OR switching to a dr recommended by another patient as doing so
blood level changes lag about 6 weeks after dosage changes... this means both that you start feeling "better" and/or feeling "worse" before your bloodwork says you do, ime about a month, sometimes more before a change will show in bloodwork. They're supposed to check blood levels 6 weeks after a dosage change/implementation of treatment. I'd call and nag him (and expect this to be indicative of your relationship with him from now on ).
Do you know your "numbers", Kathy?

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#142 of 227 Old 09-29-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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Question about D K. book.

So let's supposed I'm HypoThyroid secondary to pituitary malfunction probably exacerbated by adrenal fatigue.

I supposed it would be bad to take thyroid glandulars? Until you straighten other stuff out?

Sadly there are no doctors in my area that have taken his seminar. Sigh.

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#143 of 227 Old 09-29-2010, 02:22 PM
 
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Question about D K. book.

So let's supposed I'm HypoThyroid secondary to pituitary malfunction probably exacerbated by adrenal fatigue.

I supposed it would be bad to take thyroid glandulars? Until you straighten other stuff out?

Sadly there are no doctors in my area that have taken his seminar. Sigh.
Yeah, probably

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#144 of 227 Old 09-29-2010, 06:00 PM
 
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linking this here, too, cause it's got some interesting stuff obn the mechanisms of how hypoT symptoms come about:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml

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#145 of 227 Old 09-29-2010, 08:10 PM
 
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linking this here, too, cause it's got some interesting stuff obn the mechanisms of how hypoT symptoms come about:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml
Also, just a note that Ray Peat lives in Eugene, OR...

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#146 of 227 Old 09-29-2010, 10:06 PM
 
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My TSH was 8-something. That's the only thing I remember. But it seems odd that the doctor didn't want to see me back to see if my numbers got better, to make sure I was on the right dosage. It seems like everyone else I know that went on meds, got checked, and it had to be adjusted. And it would be nice if it was adjusted to symptoms, not numbers. Though I'm not sure I can find a doctor like that...

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#147 of 227 Old 10-01-2010, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My TSH was 8-something. That's the only thing I remember. But it seems odd that the doctor didn't want to see me back to see if my numbers got better, to make sure I was on the right dosage. It seems like everyone else I know that went on meds, got checked, and it had to be adjusted. And it would be nice if it was adjusted to symptoms, not numbers. Though I'm not sure I can find a doctor like that...
The Broda Barnes Foundation is in CT, there's gotta be some doctors there that will do that!
http://www.brodabarnes.org/

Here's one
http://www.gotodrdoyle.com/the-great...-barnes-md.php

It might also be beneficial to search the physician locator at Armour Thyroid. Even though you are not using it, the docs that are listed tend to treat to symptoms.
http://www.armourthyroid.com/con_phLocator.aspx
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#148 of 227 Old 10-04-2010, 03:47 PM
 
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So I've been doing some intense thyroid support these last few weeks. Mostly, brazil nuts and iodine, and in for the past couple of days I've been taking 1 iodoral. Now, I'm not being scientific about it AT ALL, but temps at the beginning were in the 96.6 range. A few days ago it was 97.something, and just now (while slowly walking around/getting dressed) 98.9. Is it something I'm detoxing/reacting to (entirely possible, I've been playing with my gut *and* trailing dairy) or do you think I might see thyroid results that fast?

I'll start temping more regularly and see what shows up!

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#149 of 227 Old 10-05-2010, 12:47 PM
 
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Question about D K. book.

So let's supposed I'm HypoThyroid secondary to pituitary malfunction probably exacerbated by adrenal fatigue.

I supposed it would be bad to take thyroid glandulars? Until you straighten other stuff out?

Sadly there are no doctors in my area that have taken his seminar. Sigh.
No, Dr. K says don't take thyroid, because it's not actually your thyroid that has issues (or not the first problem - I'd guess in some of these cases addressing one layer might run you into another one).

However, I'd think it makes total sense to take pituitary glandular. (Just pulled out my Dr. K book, he says so too). In theory, if you can support your pituitary to put out more TSH, your thyroid should do it's thing.

Dr. K's other stuff - mag, zinc, manganese - are you good on those?
Rubidium - no idea. Sage leaf, L-arginine (I wouldn't take this unless you were way low on arginine on your UAA), gamma oryzanol (don't know anything about this, he says it's an antioxidant). I'd just make sure your minerals are OK for now.

Hey - were you high in antimony? Antimony totally )%*#@)$*# with magnesium utilization. If you are dealing with antimony (which would make sense with blocked methylation), up your P5P, it make a world of difference for DS when he was antimony toxic (helps carry mag into cells).

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#150 of 227 Old 10-05-2010, 01:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
So I've been doing some intense thyroid support these last few weeks. Mostly, brazil nuts and iodine, and in for the past couple of days I've been taking 1 iodoral. Now, I'm not being scientific about it AT ALL, but temps at the beginning were in the 96.6 range. A few days ago it was 97.something, and just now (while slowly walking around/getting dressed) 98.9. Is it something I'm detoxing/reacting to (entirely possible, I've been playing with my gut *and* trailing dairy) or do you think I might see thyroid results that fast?

I'll start temping more regularly and see what shows up!
When I supplemented vits and minerals meant for my thyroid, it took about 2 weeks to see a change--it was a fairly dramatic change all at once, not gradual. I was starting from a much more depleted place, I think, than you are now, so I'd say it's pretty plausible.
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