Why is my 6-yr old anemic? Update #25 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 50 Old 01-05-2011, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

As background, this all started in infancy.  He had food intolerances with bloody stools, became anemic then but even after test after test failed to show any blood in his stool and we were supplementing with more and more and more iron he was still anemic.  Finally when he was about 2 his hemoglobin was normal and his iron stores had finally gotten barely into a normal level.  The GI we were working with had worked him up for everything you can check short of a colonoscopy, which he felt was too invasive and unlikely to show us anything useful.  His advice was leave him alone- he's probably going to be fine.

 

When he was 4 we did another blood test and he was anemic again.  I can't recall if that was the first time we had checked him since we had decided he was okay.  I know there were at least a few tests done to see if he dropped back down after he got to the normal range and he seemed to hold steady for a time.  But anyway, at 4 he was anemic again, although only very slightly.  2 months on a multivit + juice plus had him back to the normal range.  Since then we've been spotty with the multi and slighly less spotty with the JP.  He doesn't do well with daily supplements - gets bored of them quickly.  And aside from that I am of the opinion that a multi shouldn't be necessary and if it is there is something else going on.

 

So last week I asked the pedi to recheck his iron.  He's been exceptionally grouchy, prone to tantrums especially at  meal and bedtimes lately and his hands are always freezing.  His hemoglobin was 11.1 (normal range 11.5-15.5) so not terrible but not normal.

 

We're going back to the GI but I expect they will again find nothing.  We see no indication of blood in the stools and have tested several times.  He's a meet eater.  Doesn't eat fruits and veggies to my preference but certainly his diet better than most kids his age I would think.  Basically none of the typical reasons are true for him.  So I'm looking for the atypical reasons - things your standard MD or GI wouldn't think of (malabsorption most likely, but why?)

 

As an aside, which may or may not be related, we found out of the same day that my 3 yr old DD is also anemic but I'm more suspicious of blood loss through the GI track with her - she is still very milk and soy intolerant and has had visible blood in her underwear once recently which is why we checked her iron.  And she also is a hard one to get to eat.  So the common risk factors are more at play in her case.


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#2 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 11:26 AM
 
kjbrown92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 10,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

have they been checked for celiac? I know that's one thing that can lead to anemia.

Have you done anything like a stool test that would show you what's going on, since that's non-invasive?


Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
kjbrown92 is offline  
#3 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 04:08 PM
 
Pookietooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,059
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

One other possibility is heavy metals toxicity. Has he been tested for them? By an alternative providor?



Jen 47 DS C 2/03  angel.gif04/29/08/ DD S 10/28/09 DH Bill '97.

mighty-mama and her sister Kundalini-Mamacandle.gif

Pookietooth is offline  
#4 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrown92 View Post

have they been checked for celiac? I know that's one thing that can lead to anemia.

Have you done anything like a stool test that would show you what's going on, since that's non-invasive?


Hi Kathy.  Yes, they have both been checked for Celiac.  DD is checked routinely as her chromosomal abnormality puts her an increased risk for it.  DS was checked when he was around 18 months and was negative.  I asked the pediatrician about it when he was anemic last time (age 4) and she did not feel there was justification to test for it I guess and I didn't feel the need to push for it then.  He doesn't have any of the hallmark symptoms (diarrhea, growth issues, distended abdomen, etc).  But he does have tooth enamel abnormalities,  frequent constipation, and this recurrent anemia.  I imagine the GI will test him again this time.  My gut is that gluten is possibly an issue for him.  Or maybe not my gut but when he was a little guy and we were trying to figure this out I took him to a chiropractor who did a lot of alternative stuff that I was totally unfamiliar with at the time and he tested positive for a gluten sensitivity on MMT.  I'm not sure how much I believe in the accuracy of MMT, but it has stuck in my head.  We did try a gluten elimination on him about a year ago but it was so miserable for everyone that we didn't get very far before giving up.

 

His stool has been tested by our pediatrician 2 yrs ago and the GI several times earlier than that with nothing showing up.  I haven't taken him yet to our ND for the Genova stool test but plan to unless something obvious comes from the GI testing.  DD has been down the road of stool testing and addressing all those issues though.

 

As an update - I called back to the GI re: DD's testing because I had never gotten numbers on her.  Turns out she is not anemic - I miss understood.  It was the serum iron that was low, so not sure what that means but I'm waiting for instructions.  So I guess it's primarily DS that is a concern.
 


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#5 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 04:50 PM
 
babygrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 7,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

My son was anemic until we eliminated dairy.  We were trialing dairy and we noticed he was eating dirt again (at the age of 3 and 4!) and turns out he was anemic again.  Took him off dairy and within months he was no longer anemic.  Odd.

babygrant is offline  
#6 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by babygrant View Post

My son was anemic until we eliminated dairy.  We were trialing dairy and we noticed he was eating dirt again (at the age of 3 and 4!) and turns out he was anemic again.  Took him off dairy and within months he was no longer anemic.  Odd.



not really.  it's even accepted by the mainstream docs that milk allergy/intolerance is a leading cause of anemia.

Panserbjorne is offline  
#7 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by babygrant View Post

My son was anemic until we eliminated dairy.  We were trialing dairy and we noticed he was eating dirt again (at the age of 3 and 4!) and turns out he was anemic again.  Took him off dairy and within months he was no longer anemic.  Odd.



not really.  it's even accepted by the mainstream docs that milk allergy/intolerance is a leading cause of anemia.



I saw that when I was refreshing my mind and researching it again last night.  But what I saw was that heavy consumers of dairy can be anemic due to it's tendency to cause GI bleeding but didn't saw "in some people".  In light of my knowledge of food intolerances acquired since this DD's birth I got to wondering whether most people, if they consume enough cow's milk, would have some level of GI damage.  And if this is the case why in the world is cow's milk so touted as a main nutritional source.  Or is it just people who are sensitive?  And can sensitivities (to cow's milk or gluten or whatever) cause malabsorption issues even if there is no bleeding?  Because we have abolutely no reason to suspect he is having GI bleeding - we've checked several times, never see blood, he doesn't have mucous or even loose stools at all that might indicate irritation/ inflammation in the gut. 

 

The other thing about the mainstream docs is that milk intolerances are believed to be almost always outgrown by toddlerhood so how does that mesh with the theory that milk consumption can lead to anemia?

 

When DS was a baby and breastfed I suspected a milk allergy/ intolerance and I eliminated it.  I thought things were better some, but he still was having diarrhea most of the time and bloody stools occassionally.  The GI told me not to chase it - that he would outgrow it.  I listened to him and never did figure out whether milk was the issue (in hind site I might not have really eliminated all sources of dairy) or something else or a combination.  And his stools improved and so we thought we were good.  So anyhow, the food intolerance question has been out there for a long time with him but as I said, we have tried various eliminations on a very short term basis without luck at identifying whether foods are in fact an issue or not with this child. 


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#8 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 06:05 PM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I think it's more just that they acknowledge it-beyond that I take it with a grain of salt.  That's looking for pathology, not acknowledging what happens before the pathology is registered.  Something is going to be detected as a subclinical problem (if you're looking) first.

 

They do say kids grow out of it.  You have to research that and made your own call with that.  What is more likely (from my perspective) is that they grow out of that symptom, which is not the same thing.  It's pretty widely acknowledged too that eczema when suppressed can lead to asthma-the skin clears up because the reaction moved deeper.  I believe that is what happens.  We are programmed to watch for symptoms, we don't see the body as being interconnected so when that symptom goes away, they grew out of it.  When something else appears it's not at all linked to what preceded it.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.  But if you have been questioning, there's a reason.  I'd never throw aside mama instinct.  If you think something is amiss, it's best to keep probing when you don't like the answers you're getting.

Panserbjorne is offline  
#9 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookietooth View Post

One other possibility is heavy metals toxicity. Has he been tested for them? By an alternative providor?



Somehow I missed your post earlier.  I haven't thought of it from this angle before, although the same chiropractor that told me DS was gluten sensitive also said he needed a copper supplement.  DH was very unconvinced of the chiro's methods for determining this and veto'ed the copper.  We're much more open to alternative methods now than we were then.  So anyhow, how would heavy metal toxicity cause poor absorption of iron?  Or would it cause anemia in a different way?


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#10 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 06:54 PM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

heavy metal toxicity impairs nutrient transport.  Different metals can affect different nutrients.

Panserbjorne is offline  
#11 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post

I think it's more just that they acknowledge it-beyond that I take it with a grain of salt.  That's looking for pathology, not acknowledging what happens before the pathology is registered.  Something is going to be detected as a subclinical problem (if you're looking) first.

 

They do say kids grow out of it.  You have to research that and made your own call with that.  What is more likely (from my perspective) is that they grow out of that symptom, which is not the same thing.  It's pretty widely acknowledged too that eczema when suppressed can lead to asthma-the skin clears up because the reaction moved deeper.  I believe that is what happens.  We are programmed to watch for symptoms, we don't see the body as being interconnected so when that symptom goes away, they grew out of it.  When something else appears it's not at all linked to what preceded it.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.  But if you have been questioning, there's a reason.  I'd never throw aside mama instinct.  If you think something is amiss, it's best to keep probing when you don't like the answers you're getting.



This gets to the heart of one of my struggles in this food intolerance thing.  Kathy and some of the other mom's on the allergy forum I imagine bang their heads against the wall trying to get through to me on this issue but here's my struggle:  DS 1, in hind site, probably had some food intolerances as a baby.  DS 2 certainly did.  DD absolutely did to a major degree and still does.  Because we didn't figure out the food intolerances for DS1 or 2 while they were babies, and because I have heard this theory from many, many very intelligent women on this forum who I respect, I have thought both the boys probably still have intolerances manifested in a different way.  But when we eliminate various things from their diets we don't see changes that last.  Their bowels might be different for a day or 2 and then they go back to the norm.  Their behavior changes for a few days, but then it reverts back.  I can't say with any real confidence that there has been a significant change in them.  We had DS1 tested for IgG allergies and we eliminated everything on his list for 2-3 weeks and at first we were really optimistic but by the end he was pretty much the same kid in every way.  And I can't justify in my mind or to DH keeping the kids off major foods on a hunch without something more to back it up.  In the case of DS2 we have the anemia but no obvious GI symptoms - his stools are just firmer than most peoples.  And going on the theory that he was food intolerant as a baby and he still is intolerant to those same foods but the symptoms have changed - let's say his symptoms now include bedwetting - if the symptoms aren't GI anymore then why is it affecting iron absorption?  I can believe that it is possible for symptoms to change.  I've seen it in DD - her reactions are much more behvaioral now and less GI.  But I guess I'm not convinced yet that it is impossible to outgrow them.

 

If anyone can give me an explanation for how malabsorption can occur as a result of food intolerances in the absence of other GI symptoms I think that theory probably makes the most sense given our history. 


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#12 of 50 Old 01-06-2011, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I also wonder if maybe what we're all dealing with, as a family, is not IgG intolerances but some other type of reaction to foods.  Because none of our testing has seemed very accurate.  About the only thing that I am really sure was true was DD's 3+ reaction to soy.  But I had many things come up on my test that I eliminated for months and then reintroduced with no obvious change.  And DS, as I mentioned, had similar results with his IgG testing.  DD's dairy issues didn't really show up on testing. 


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#13 of 50 Old 01-07-2011, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Or maybe something else is at play - like heavy metal toxicity - beyond the food issue.  Is there something else anyone can think of that would make it difficult to see changes with elimination of foods? 

 

Thinking back about my journey I have to say that the whole experience of eliminating foods and going through the stool testing and working on rebalancing the gut has helped.  Overall I am healthier than I was before I believe.  And I think it has helped DD's GI system as well although she is still intolerant.  So it is possible that elimination of the foods that we tested positive for was necessary to start the healing process but now we are able to handle them better.  There are still foods that both of us react to obviously within a few days and that is the piece I'm missing with the boys.  They both have chronic health issues that I think could be food intolerance related, but no symptom to tell me we're on the right track with elimination and I would really like to have that before forcing them to make major life changes.  The one thing that i think could make another elimination trial easier this time though is we can all do it together - I've been considering re-elimination of DD and my foods from testing to see if I notice anything since it has been awhile, and the boys would likely have an easier time knowing that the other boy is doing it too. And my mom, who lives with, recently got her testing back and is in the early stages of an ED.  So now is probably a good time to try again.


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#14 of 50 Old 01-07-2011, 05:22 AM
2xy
 
2xy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Quote:Originally Posted by LaurieG View Post
In light of my knowledge of food intolerances acquired since this DD's birth I got to wondering whether most people, if they consume enough cow's milk, would have some level of GI damage.  And if this is the case why in the world is cow's milk so touted as a main nutritional source.

 

 

Because there are 65,000 dairy farms in the United States. $$$.
 

2xy is offline  
#15 of 50 Old 01-07-2011, 05:50 AM
 
kjbrown92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 10,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

I'm not banging my head against a wall. Don't worry.

Where do you live? Just curious because my osteopath's theory is that lyme disease caused my kids' intolerances.

Personally I don't think anyone "outgrows" a food intolerance. As Elizabeth said, they can change symptoms. The other alternative is that people can HEAL. Outgrowing just "happens", healing means you're doing it on purpose.

For milk, my DS went from projectile vomiting to screaming all night long to rash on his butt to leg cramps to bedwetting to stomach cramps/bedwetting/screaming all night long. He's 10 yo. DS, DD2 and I were all tested for lyme in the last year and are all positive. Since DD1 is healthy(ish), she hasn't been tested.

 

Have you heard about the pebble theory with food intolerances. If you are intolerant to 6 foods, for example, and you take out 1 or 2 of them, it's better, but it still hurts. Or if you take out one, then put it back in and take out another, you're not seeing any improvement, so you may conclude there aren't any food intolerances. Where if you could identify all of them and remove all of them, they're would be a significant change.

 

If you're seeing a difference for 2-3 weeks and then it reverts, I'd look to see what changes after 2-3 weeks. Do you figure out how to make different things so are adding some foods in that you weren't having before? are you getting lax at reading labels because you've seen an improvement? are you increasing another food because you've taken out other ones?

 

I'm certainly not saying that everyone has food intolerances. But I do believe that a fair number of people do have them and don't know it.

 

I don't know much about malabsorption except that my brother had it in the 70s and something wrong with his villi  (and probably still has both today). It was before celiac testing was common in the US. And he won't go get tested now. He's 6 feet tall and about 140 lbs soaking wet. And has always had digestive issues. And other issues. But it stands to reason that if you have inflammation in your gut that you're not absorbing things well.


Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
kjbrown92 is offline  
#16 of 50 Old 01-08-2011, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrown92 View Post

I'm not banging my head against a wall. Don't worry.

Where do you live? Just curious because my osteopath's theory is that lyme disease caused my kids' intolerances.

Personally I don't think anyone "outgrows" a food intolerance. As Elizabeth said, they can change symptoms. The other alternative is that people can HEAL. Outgrowing just "happens", healing means you're doing it on purpose.

For milk, my DS went from projectile vomiting to screaming all night long to rash on his butt to leg cramps to bedwetting to stomach cramps/bedwetting/screaming all night long. He's 10 yo. DS, DD2 and I were all tested for lyme in the last year and are all positive. Since DD1 is healthy(ish), she hasn't been tested.

 

Have you heard about the pebble theory with food intolerances. If you are intolerant to 6 foods, for example, and you take out 1 or 2 of them, it's better, but it still hurts. Or if you take out one, then put it back in and take out another, you're not seeing any improvement, so you may conclude there aren't any food intolerances. Where if you could identify all of them and remove all of them, they're would be a significant change.

 

If you're seeing a difference for 2-3 weeks and then it reverts, I'd look to see what changes after 2-3 weeks. Do you figure out how to make different things so are adding some foods in that you weren't having before? are you getting lax at reading labels because you've seen an improvement? are you increasing another food because you've taken out other ones?

 

I'm certainly not saying that everyone has food intolerances. But I do believe that a fair number of people do have them and don't know it.

 

I don't know much about malabsorption except that my brother had it in the 70s and something wrong with his villi  (and probably still has both today). It was before celiac testing was common in the US. And he won't go get tested now. He's 6 feet tall and about 140 lbs soaking wet. And has always had digestive issues. And other issues. But it stands to reason that if you have inflammation in your gut that you're not absorbing things well.



Your example of your brother is a classic example of why I'm confused about DS2's anemia.  My mom, myself, and DD all have obvious GI stuff going on.  My mom has IBS, I've never been diagnosed but have to be very careful about stress management and what I'm eating to keep my GI track normal and DD is the same - whenever anything stresses her body it shows in her stools.  So if any of us had malabsorption issues (which we probably all do, although we're all making progress through gut healing stuff) I wouldn't be surprised.  But DS2 doesn't have digestive issues really - no gas, no mucous, no loose stools, no reflux, rarely has stomache aches, ....  And he is growing great.  He is at nearly the 90th percentile for height and 75th for weight.  He's a slender kid, but by all standardized ways of measuring he is in the "normal" range for his age.  I wonder whether his tendency for harder stools is a "symptom" of something going on in his gut, but it is just as likely to be that he doesn't drink enough water or eat enough fruits and veggies (this is my least fruit/ veggie loving kid we're talking about).   So it's confusing.

 

He has other, non-GI things that I have wondered if they are symptoms of food intolerances that I've posted about previously - most notable is his bedwetting.  He wears Underjams and they are soaking wet every morning.  He is nowhere close to being dry at night even occassionally.  His last ED we were trying to see about the bedwetting so there was more focus on the bedwetting during that time and he made a point of going to the bathroom right before he fell asleep and not peeing when he woke up (he generally gets a lazy about it because he knows he's wearing the Underjams), and DH would wake him before he went to sleep to take him to the toilet.  So there were other interventions going on at the same time and the symptom that we were looking for improved.  But with time and laziness his behavior became terrible (as he became more resentful of the restrictions) and the wetness eventually reverted back.  Did he sabatoge?  Maybe.  DS! was similar - for him we were looking at behavior as well as some very mild physical things.  We pumped up the testing and had rewards and such so he thought it was great fun in the begining and we a happy, happy kid making it look like we were on the right track.  But over time it was less fun and he became angry at what he couldn't have and his behavior eventually was worse than baseline.  So its hard to say.  Which is why an accurate test would be really helpful.  So far the Genova IgG one we've tried I'm not too sure has been real accurate for us.  I'm considering trying the ALCAT instead for DS2 but it is a lot of money to spend for something that I'm not sure will be very helpful.  And there is just no way a long, drawn out experiment pulling various things for weeks at a time and journaling, etc would go over.  The kids would revolt and DH would back them and I have nothing but a hunch on my side.


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#17 of 50 Old 01-08-2011, 10:51 AM
 
kjbrown92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 10,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

For DS and DD2, bedwetting is a definite food intolerance symptom. DD2 also drank/peed a ton during the day as a symptom of one of her food intolerances (apple).


Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
kjbrown92 is offline  
#18 of 50 Old 01-08-2011, 11:02 AM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I'd say bedwetting is a symptom of FA and candida.  They are kind of intertwined...but yes.  It's not always foods, but it certainly can be.

Panserbjorne is offline  
#19 of 50 Old 01-08-2011, 11:15 AM
 
janinemh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

As a nutritional therapist, one of my first suspicions  with anemia would be low stomach acid because proper acidity in the stomach is essential for digesting protein, iron, and B-vitamins (among many other vital nutrients).  After that, you could look at gut healing further south.  Removing stresses like food intolerances is just the first step in healing the gut.  You really need to follow a gut healing protocol.  We did the GAPS diet.

janinemh is offline  
#20 of 50 Old 01-09-2011, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)



BTW, Kathy, we live in central Illinois so Lyme disease is a possibility but not one that I had considered previously.  Interesting.

 

Also to everyone please excuse the typos.  Every time I sit down DD has been immediately finding me to NAK.  Weaning today though so hopefully the typos improve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janinemh View Post

As a nutritional therapist, one of my first suspicions  with anemia would be low stomach acid because proper acidity in the stomach is essential for digesting protein, iron, and B-vitamins (among many other vital nutrients).  After that, you could look at gut healing further south.  Removing stresses like food intolerances is just the first step in healing the gut.  You really need to follow a gut healing protocol.  We did the GAPS diet.



Thanks for your perspective.  I appreciate the tip about the GAPS diet and I'm looking in to that, along with the theory of heavy metal toxicity.  The low stomach acid thing is of particular interest to me because with DS1, my 8 yr old, we are currently trying to balance his stomach acid.  He has chronic inflammation in the trachea which led to 6 episodes of croup last school year and 2 so far this school year (although thankfully they have been less severe as we have been trying to boost his immune system).  But I'm kind of stuck on the stomach acid piece.  I suspect reflux may play a role because he tends to get stomach aches (although, again, not as many recently) but I'm not sure what to do about it.

 

Another thought for general discussion - is it possible to do gut healing without removing trigger foods?  Or is that piece absolutely essential to the process?


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#21 of 50 Old 01-09-2011, 06:02 AM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

low stomach acid is a symptom of nutritional depletion though...it's not mutually exclusive.  It's placing your focus on a different place, and one further down the cascade from my perspective.  Low HCl is related to having too little zinc which is common in children with....food allergies.  It's not the only reason, again candida, heavy metals etc. can all create this situation.  It's just important not to throw out the possibility here because "it's more likely to be low stomach acid."

 

Hope that makes sense.  These things tend to cluster.  It's hard to have heavy metal issues without having yeast and food issues.  It's a chicken and egg thing.  It's ALL connected.

 

And while I believe you can heal without removing triggers, you need to have really, really good support to know if it's working or not.  From my perspective that generally happens more often if you are using several healing modalities to really support the body and create a space to heal.  Otherwise it more often than not becomes a balancing act...getting nutrients into the body while continuing to stress it.

 

I didn't remove all of our triggers...just the top ones.  But we did a LOT to heal.  I didn't just rely on the diet, which for us, was SCD.

Panserbjorne is offline  
#22 of 50 Old 01-09-2011, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Also, thinking about where to go with the GI.  When we last saw him he had run pretty much every test he thought was appropriate short of a colonoscopy which he didn't feel would reveal much useful information.  If we pick up where we left off basically I'm thinking the colonoscopy question will come up again.  Would damage be visible on a scope if GI symptoms are mild like in DS2's case?  Assuming malabsorption is the problem I'm wondering if a scope is worthwhile to pursue.  My thought is we will rule out whatever the GI can help with first since that is covered by insurance and then go to the ND.


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#23 of 50 Old 01-09-2011, 09:08 AM
 
kjbrown92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 10,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurieG View Post



BTW, Kathy, we live in central Illinois so Lyme disease is a possibility but not one that I had considered previously.  Interesting.

 

Also to everyone please excuse the typos.  Every time I sit down DD has been immediately finding me to NAK.  Weaning today though so hopefully the typos improve.


 

 

Another thought for general discussion - is it possible to do gut healing without removing trigger foods?  Or is that piece absolutely essential to the process?


Lyme is everywhere these days, unfortunately. If you're going to get tested go with Igenex of whatever the one is that Panserbjorne recommends.

 

I personally think that it's harder for gut healing if you leave in the trigger foods just because you're trying to do battle against something always there. For me, the analogy is like trying to cure poison ivy while you're letting your child roll in it every day. It may help, but not as fast as if you removed the poison ivy completely. But that's just my opinion not everybody's. And it certainly depends how much healing you're doing, and what support you have while doing it.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurieG View Post

Also, thinking about where to go with the GI.  When we last saw him he had run pretty much every test he thought was appropriate short of a colonoscopy which he didn't feel would reveal much useful information.  If we pick up where we left off basically I'm thinking the colonoscopy question will come up again.  Would damage be visible on a scope if GI symptoms are mild like in DS2's case?  Assuming malabsorption is the problem I'm wondering if a scope is worthwhile to pursue.  My thought is we will rule out whatever the GI can help with first since that is covered by insurance and then go to the ND.


What has been done so far - an upper GI? a scope of the top of the digestive symptom? stool tests? are there tests for stomach acid amounts?
 


Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
kjbrown92 is offline  
#24 of 50 Old 01-10-2011, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
View Post

View Post

View Post


What has been done so far - an upper GI? a scope of the top of the digestive symptom? stool tests? are there tests for stomach acid amounts?
 

The last time he was anemic we did a stool test looking for blood and the mainstream bacterial things - Campylobactor, Salmonella, etc.  Everything was negative.  Going back to the last time we saw GI (which was at age 2 or earlier) he had run a bunch of blood tests looking at things and also the stool cultures for bacteria.  I don't even know what all he was tested for then.  He has never had any imaging of any sort  and I have not taken him to a holistic practitioner, except for the chiro we were working with.    I don't know about testing for stomach acid.  I will ask about that. 

 

I'm basically pretty sure the GI isn't going to show anything, unless he happens to test positive for CD this time.  So given the whole suspicion of food allergies and yeast where do we start with the ND?  We don't have the cash at the moment to do it all, so with prioritizing I was thinking the stool test would be the first thing.  Anyone want to give their opinion on that one?

 

Also re: diet, I'm looking in to a bunch of options that might provide gut healing.  SCD and GAPS are intriguing but I don't think we can be 100% strict about it.  I just don't feel like I can tell the kids, at their current ages (DD excluded - she is too young to care too much and is used to being on a special diet) that they are never allowed to spend the night at a friend's house or go to food centered events unless they take their own food along.  But most of the time we can do things at home that will help.  Just not sure exactly which changes to make yet.
 


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#25 of 50 Old 01-21-2011, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

His tTG was 48 yesterday, with a high end of normal of 20.  Scope to come....

 

The GI says there is only a 10-15% chance he is positive on biopsy.  I guess I will wait to cross that bridge if we get to it, but what do you do with that scenario?


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#26 of 50 Old 01-21-2011, 07:21 PM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

aside from eliminate gluten, or in addition to?  Or are you asking about the scope?

Panserbjorne is offline  
#27 of 50 Old 01-21-2011, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post

aside from eliminate gluten, or in addition to?  Or are you asking about the scope?



No, we're doing the scope.  I guess what I'm wondering is what could cause an elevated tTG if the scope doesn't show CD?  Is the tTG something that could randomly go up and down, or respond to some other intervention besides eliminating gluten?  I'm not clear on what the blood test is measuring and what an elevated level means.  So I'm trying to reason through whether it is prudent to eliminate gluten even if the scope doesn't show anything because the GI does not seem to want us to do that - he is very anti eliminating foods unless there is a very clear diagnosis which has been a source of contention between us for about 6 years now, but on the other hand I understand his reasoning and agree with some of it.  So anyway, I fully expect that if the scope shows nothing he will recommend doing nothing but following up periodically.  I want to hear the other side of the argument. 


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#28 of 50 Old 01-22-2011, 04:49 AM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

oh, gotcha.  As far as I'm aware there is no known alternate differential diagnosis for elevated tTG that is accepted in the medical literature.  I'll double check.  If you search celiac specific boards where people live, eat and breathe you will find that answer over and over again. That doesn't mean all docs believe it.  IT means it can be explained away as an anomaly if they want to, or lead to further testing for other things which usually end up, IMO related to CD.

 

You could still have a negative biopsy.  The damage to the intestine happens over time and will often only start after a trigger.  It's certainly possible that she's not damaged enough to have a positive result.  IN which case you'd need to make a choice.  The non removal after these tests avenue is for seriously hardcore docs and I don't understand it.  Basically they're waiting for things to get bad enough that the tissue reflects what the blood work is already showing.

 

Your doc sounds pretty hardcore.  There are those who will use blood tests and physical exams to make a clinical diagnosis.  He is against removal even WITH the positive tTG?  I think, if you got a negative scope, I'd get a second opinion.  Just my two cents.

 

Do you know what the current stats are for CD?  Last I looked it was 1:133 had it and that was from several years ago.  That is not a small number of people.  My point is that docs STILL aren't good at diagnosing it.  Look at the increase here:

 

0.9 per 100,000 in 1950 to 1989
3.3 per 100,000 in the 1990s
9.1 per 100,000 in 2000 and 2001
20.6 per 100,000 in 2003

 

Imagine being one of those people who was told definitively they didn't have it only to continue suffering because the tests weren't adequate.

Panserbjorne is offline  
#29 of 50 Old 01-22-2011, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
AquariusHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

So from what I'm reading it seems you could have an elevated tTG if there was some other autoimmune issue instead of CD (Type I diabetes or RA for example).  Here is a list of his "symptoms":  recurrent mild anemia, damaged tooth enamel, borderline constipation, bedwetting, tendency to have melt downs around meals and at bedtime, high energy level and difficulty with maintaining attention (subclinical ADHD I would say), cold hands and feet.   Does anything else autoimmune jump out at anyone?

 

Another CD question - is the reaction IgG with CD?  I didn't think so but some of the things I have been reading talk about doing an ELISA IgG test for gluten sensitivity as part of the diagnostic process.  I had thought CD was a totally different process than my or DD's IgG allergies.  If it is IgG then all of the symptoms seem like they could be d/t gluten and nothing else seems as likely as that.  But I had never read bedwetting or ADHD as symptoms of CD as far as I recall.

 

More thoughts (looking for opinions on this, as it is obviously a judgement call since we can't see the future) - what do we do about DD?  Her Turner Syndrome alone (even without a brother with CD) means that she is at a very high risk for developing CD (some stats I have seen go as high as 30% likelihood but I don't know if that is accurate).  She already has GI symptoms related to food sensitivities, although multiple gluten eliminations have not seemed to make a difference in the past.  So do we pre-emptively eliminate gluten for her if DS has CD?


Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
AquariusHome is offline  
#30 of 50 Old 01-22-2011, 05:00 AM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurieG View Post

So from what I'm reading it seems you could have an elevated tTG if there was some other autoimmune issue instead of CD (Type I diabetes or RA for example).  Here is a list of his "symptoms":  recurrent mild anemia, damaged tooth enamel, borderline constipation, bedwetting, tendency to have melt downs around meals and at bedtime, high energy level and difficulty with maintaining attention (subclinical ADHD I would say), cold hands and feet.   Does anything else autoimmune jump out at anyone?

 

Another CD question - is the reaction IgG with CD?  I didn't think so but some of the things I have been reading talk about doing an ELISA IgG test for gluten sensitivity as part of the diagnostic process.  I had thought CD was a totally different process than my or DD's IgG allergies.  If it is IgG then all of the symptoms seem like they could be d/t gluten and nothing else seems as likely as that.  But I had never read bedwetting or ADHD as symptoms of CD as far as I recall.

 

More thoughts (looking for opinions on this, as it is obviously a judgement call since we can't see the future) - what do we do about DD?  Her Turner Syndrome alone (even without a brother with CD) means that she is at a very high risk for developing CD (some stats I have seen go as high as 30% likelihood but I don't know if that is accurate).  She already has GI symptoms related to food sensitivities, although multiple gluten eliminations have not seemed to make a difference in the past.  So do we pre-emptively eliminate gluten for her if DS has CD?


I haven't met a doc yet that doesn't link the elevated tTG to gluten.  It can be a reason to look for other things for inquisitive minds, and I do agree that it could have some looking for alternate autoimmune diagnosis.  However do you know what the percentage is of people with RA/diabetes AND celiac?  I look at these number with a seriously jaundiced eye.  How many get diagnosed as a result of tTG and subsequent testing with RA...only to find out years later that celiac was the underlying issue?  OR even just an additional issue?  Nope.  I still say that this is indicative of CD.  It's just how you want to pursue it.

 

My dd was diagnosed with a genetic test, as well as positive IgA, IgG, tTG and she presented with DH.  No scope.  Removal of gluten, dairy and soy was necessary for her, as is common with many people with CD.

 

When you say removing gluten hasn't helped in the past, how long are we talking with absolutely no exposure?  For someone with celiac cross contamination is considered exposure, and yes...that tiny amount will trigger a response in most.  So most people who remove gluten with no results end up finding out they didn't truly remove it.  Plus it generally has to be out for 4-6 weeks before you really see a change.

 

I'm certainly not hoping it's CD.  Just trying to give you my perspective.  And ADHD and bedwetting are both common with food allergies in general so they could definitely tie in to this.  Bedwetting is also common with yeast.  Cold hands and feet make me think low functioning thyroid, also quite common with CD.

 

I will also say as I said before these things cluster and start resembling each other.  Just because I can look at a list and say, "yup, CD has all that" doesn't mean it IS CD.  There are many, many things that overlap and you are right to question.

Panserbjorne is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off