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Old 02-03-2011, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You can search for education or training of both types of care providers...just google chiropractic training or chiropractors versus Mds education. Some sites are schools, some are informational but they are all very similar .I don't have a particular site that I use but they are easy to find.  Also, I have seen charts at numerous chiropractic offices that show the hours side by side.  You would never see those at Md's offices because I think they want people believing chiros are relatively untrained. 


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Old 02-03-2011, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry to revisit this right away but I wanted to make a few things clear.  Anyone can go directly to some of the chiropractic and medical schools and find the information. As the single parent to two kids under three one of whom is sick....I don't have the time or energy to do the research for others right now, and never thought I would have to be defending my natural approach to health care on this site.

 

The point of the post, which I would love to get back to, was the chicken pox.  DS broke out on day 12 and on day 16 now has many spots, still no fever though.  DD still seems fine. 


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Old 02-03-2011, 02:35 PM
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The sources I am finding say that it takes 360 hours of training to become a chiropractor, and 12000 hours of training to become a pediatrician.  

 

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Old 02-04-2011, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Not even close--try again!


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Old 02-04-2011, 01:37 PM
 
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Here's a random thought, and I am definitely no expert on this, but here goes. I can't help but wonder if maybe the reason it's getting harder to find chicken pox and other once common childhood diseases so you can "get exposed and just get it over with" is that most diseases are just continuing to follow a downward trend or naturally dying out, the way other diseases like scarlet fever and typhoid did. These charts show how most diseases were becoming less common even before vaccines came along due to better sanitation, nutrition, etc. As a kid in the 70's, I was exposed to other kids who got chicken pox, but I never got it. It seemed like a common enough but not really epidemic disease back then, but my family grew a huge garden and we ate a lot of vegetables (healthy diet) so maybe that may have had something to do with it? Some people may credit  the cp vaccine for the fewer cases of chicken pox but perhaps the disease itself is following the same general decline of all infectious diseases?

 

  http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web1.html

 


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Old 02-04-2011, 07:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3girls View Post

Here's a random thought, and I am definitely no expert on this, but here goes. I can't help but wonder if maybe the reason it's getting harder to find chicken pox and other once common childhood diseases so you can "get exposed and just get it over with" is that most diseases are just continuing to follow a downward trend or naturally dying out, the way other diseases like scarlet fever and typhoid did. These charts show how most diseases were becoming less common even before vaccines came along due to better sanitation, nutrition, etc. As a kid in the 70's, I was exposed to other kids who got chicken pox, but I never got it. It seemed like a common enough but not really epidemic disease back then, but my family grew a huge garden and we ate a lot of vegetables (healthy diet) so maybe that may have had something to do with it? Some people may credit  the cp vaccine for the fewer cases of chicken pox but perhaps the disease itself is following the same general decline of all infectious diseases?

 

  http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web1.html

 


 

 

Scarlett fever did not die out.  It is caused by group A Streptococcus bacteria - basically it is strep throat with a rash and is easily treated by antibiotics.  Generally these days it is diagnosed as strep and treatment began before a rash develops, though it still happens occasionally.  But the bacteria is still quite common and spread very easily. 

 

Typhoid is spread by water and food contaminated with human fecal material.  Modern sanitation means we now have clean water and clean food, so no tyhpoid.

 

Please note that the graphs you linked to are all death rates, not rate of incidence.  Modern medicine made huge advances over those years.  Better medicines - antibiotics in particular to treat opportunistic secondary infections, the iron lung for polio, the ability to give oxygen..  So the other diseases shown got lot less deadly (though some people still died and many more developed serious complications, often lasting), but they were still just as prevalent until vaccinations started.  

 

Here is a graph showing measles incidence before and after vaccination in the US  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Measles_US_1944-2007_inset.png

(yes, wikipedia for convenience, but the same data is availably many more reliable places).  

 

 

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Old 02-04-2011, 10:08 PM
 
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At our last well-baby check-up, I asked our pediatrician what the ideal age would be for DS to get the chicken pox. Our MD, who is selective and non-vax friendly, said that any time after 12months would be fine. She said that between 2-3 years old would be best, as their skin heals well then, and there would be less chance of scarring. She recommended using a non-petroleum jelly to help prevent scarring too. (I'd probably use a natural healing salve.) Our pediatrician, who is also a mother of two boys, told us that she sought out the chicken pox for her kids when they were little.

 

As another natural mama, I support your decision to build lifelong immunity through getting the chickenpox during childhood.

 

 

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Old 02-05-2011, 01:44 AM
 
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The sources I am finding say that it takes 360 hours of training to become a chiropractor, and 12000 hours of training to become a pediatrician.  

 



Where are you finding 360?  It's generally a four year program with over 4000 hours of training.  

 

Not as much as a pediatrician, for sure. And I wouldn't to to one for information specific to kids health or infectious disease since these are not their areas of expertise.  But they do get a lot of medical training and it does take a lot of work and study to become one.  Sadly, there are still a lot of chiropractors praticing sublaxion (not taught in Canadian schools, I'm pretty sure, since there is no evidence for it) or trying to line their pockets by setting their customers up on regular "maintenance" ajustment schedules despite again not being supported by evidence instead of just treating actual problems.  But there are also a lot of good chiropractors out there practicing evidence based medicine. 

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Old 02-05-2011, 04:11 PM
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I get that you're busy.  I hope your kids recover fast.  I'm fascinated by this conversation, but not fascinated enough to go hunting for evidence to persuade myself of a point that you are trying to make.  So no, I will not be trying again. 

 

Someone I trust gave me the 360 vs. 12000 hours number.  I'm open to the possibility that my trusted source is wrong.  I will be happy to consider other evidence if you (or anyone really) post a link to one of the many sites you know of where the information can be readily found. 

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Old 02-05-2011, 05:45 PM
 
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First two curriculums I could google.  Both four year programs, the first one listed as 4598 clock hours and the second one doesn't say and I'm not going to bother to add up the numbers, but by quick estimate also appears to be over 4000 hours.  http://uws.edu/Academic_Programs/Doctor_of_Chiropractic/DC_Program_Curriculum.pdf and http://www.logan.edu/DocumentUploads/adm/DC%20Curriculum%20Table%20Viewbook%20Sept%202010.pdf

 

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Old 02-05-2011, 06:34 PM
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And for MD programs?

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Old 02-05-2011, 06:55 PM
 
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Are you talking to me?  My only point was that 360 hours for chiropractor was not correct.  Your 12,000 hours for peds sounds reasonable enough.

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Old 02-05-2011, 07:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3girls View Post

Here's a random thought, and I am definitely no expert on this, but here goes. I can't help but wonder if maybe the reason it's getting harder to find chicken pox and other once common childhood diseases so you can "get exposed and just get it over with" is that most diseases are just continuing to follow a downward trend or naturally dying out, the way other diseases like scarlet fever and typhoid did. These charts show how most diseases were becoming less common even before vaccines came along due to better sanitation, nutrition, etc. As a kid in the 70's, I was exposed to other kids who got chicken pox, but I never got it. It seemed like a common enough but not really epidemic disease back then, but my family grew a huge garden and we ate a lot of vegetables (healthy diet) so maybe that may have had something to do with it? Some people may credit  the cp vaccine for the fewer cases of chicken pox but perhaps the disease itself is following the same general decline of all infectious diseases?

 

  http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web1.html

 


Interesting thought, but I don't think that CP has declined in countries that don't vax for it, and there are tons of them. CP vax is only done in a handful of countries as part of the official vax program. Funny enough, the rates of hysteria-about-natural-chicken-pox have skyrocketed in vaxing countries like the US! 


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Old 02-06-2011, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I appreciate the others taking up the ridiculous argument that chiros earn their degree with 300 hours...beyond inaccurate and frankly irritates to me no end that someone would even start that argument here.  Please have some idea what you are talking about before writing things....I was trying to gather opinions for my children's exposure to chicken pox and end up feeling like I need to educate someone who obviously has no idea what they are talking about....so frustrating to me!   The Bureau of Labor Statistic, from the Department of Labor says:

 

Education and training. In 2009, 16 chiropractic programs in the United States were accredited by the Council on Chiropractic Education. 

 

Chiropractic programs require a minimum of 4,200 hours of combined classroom, laboratory, and clinical experience.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm#training

 

(do your homework)

 

Really, going to disengage from this topic....hope the original confused member can refrain as well....

 

DS is finally on the mend....I believe that no new spots have come on and they seem to be healing well.  DD has no spots at all, but spend one day with a fever and threw up twice....I read that 5 out of 100 people can have the disease with no pox (my brother was one of those cases) so maybe that is what happened?  They are never sick--no flu or anything and the timing seems strange...we all ate the same food, etc...at some point in the future I will have titers checked and I guess we will know then.

 

My apologies to those following this thread.  No clue how or why it got so off topic and my level of exhaustion has not helped my response to it.  Lately I feel like a few people from Cafe mom-type places have been here....which is why I am on here less....anyway, thanks and I am sorry.

 

 

 


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Old 02-06-2011, 11:55 AM
 
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The figure of 360 hours seems to be common enough as a number for diplomate/continuing-education programs that I suspect this is the source.

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Old 02-06-2011, 03:05 PM
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Otto, that seems a reasonable explanation for my source's error.

 

Sunfish21, I know you're really busy with sick kids, and I understand what that's like.  That said, if you want to prove a point, providing evidence for it is not "homework" for people who disagree with you.  What you've now demonstrated is that chiros have approximately 1/3 the hours training that doctors do. 

 

My post honestly didn't come from a desire to attack chiropractors.  It came from a place of concern about false expertise being offered as reassurance that deliberate chicken pox exposure is safe for an 11 month old.  My personal experience with my younger dd makes me very concerned about potential serious consequences for illnesses in children under the age of 2.  I probably wouldn't have freaked out if one of my children had caught chicken pox in the wild at that age, but I would never have deliberately exposed them to it.  You asked for feedback on your plan for deliberate exposure and asserted that your chiropractor's statement was reassuring, and my personal experience leads me to be very concerned about risks for the very young.  I really thought I was responding to your question.

 

It sounds like your kids are recovering well, and I'm glad their pox has been uncomplicated.  I hope it leads to lasting immunity and you don't have to do the whole thing over again in a few years.

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Old 02-06-2011, 08:37 PM
 
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Quote:
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My post honestly didn't come from a desire to attack chiropractors.  It came from a place of concern about false expertise being offered as reassurance that deliberate chicken pox exposure is safe for an 11 month old.  My personal experience with my younger dd makes me very concerned about potential serious consequences for illnesses in children under the age of 2.  I probably wouldn't have freaked out if one of my children had caught chicken pox in the wild at that age, but I would never have deliberately exposed them to it.  You asked for feedback on your plan for deliberate exposure and asserted that your chiropractor's statement was reassuring, and my personal experience leads me to be very concerned about risks for the very young.

 

 

I agree with this poster-- I would never listen to my chiro over my pediatrician! The education is barely comparable. And if it is you need a new pediatrician. I really think, as parents, we need to take our child's best interest to heart. I would never intentially expose a baby (INFANT!) to an infectious disease such as chicken pox.  It is just totally not worth it.


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Old 02-07-2011, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am so unhappy with the way this thread has turned out...where are the holistic-minded mothers offering support and experience? Anyone thinking that I would do anything regarding my children's health without careful consideration doesn't know me. Unawareness is one thing--we can always learn.  Close-mindedness is harder to deal with.  It was never my desire to start any kind of debate on anything....what happened to my original post?  Although it is *not* the point (I cannot seem to stress this enough), there are good pediatricians and bad; there are good chiropractors and bad; there is a wide spectrum of people and professions and continuing education.  I find it so strange that people, on this forum no less, would be so quick to completely write-off the health care offered by one type of doctor (the degree is called Doctor of Chiropractic for a reason).  It may not be what you would choose, but to say or imply that it is a bad choice, that I am trusting the opinion of someone who knows little to nothing, etc is beyond offensive to me.  I listen careful to what the women at our local health foods/natural medicinal products store have to say, although many of them do not hold degrees. I greatly respected the information that my midwife's assistant had regarding herbs, although she is not a doctor.  I am not sure what the problem on this thread has been, but it makes me less likely to use this community for information, as I am often not getting the help I am asking for.  That makes me sad as I feel like this is the place I belong.  For those that offered true opinions on the topic presented, when when they disagreed with me, thank you.  I don't want blind approval, but I do expect others to have some knowledge base if they are going to critique my choices (personal or professional).

 


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Old 02-07-2011, 10:40 AM
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Chiropractors get a degree called "Doctor of Chiropractic" for marketing reasons.  But, as your evidence shows, they have roughly 1/3 the amount of training that doctors do and a D.C. is not equivalent to a medical degree.  Chiropractors don't even have hospital admitting privileges, so it's not like a chiro gets a lot of opportunities to see the results when his advice on exposure to infectious disease goes seriously wrong.  

 

I take advice from lots of people too.  But advice needs to be checked.  I wouldn't trust my kids' pediatrician just because she has an MD, and I wouldn't trust a woman in the health food store just because she works around a lot of natural remedies.  I take their expertise and advice into consideration and I do my best to check it independently before making decisions about what risks are appropriate for my particular children.  

 

I'm sorry you're feeling alienated and sad.  

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Old 02-07-2011, 12:15 PM
 
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This thread seems to have run its course and is now completely off topic, so I am going to close it.  If you would like to continue the discussion regarding hours required for various forms of medical licensing, please feel free to start a new thread.


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